Yes.
Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequences.
Débuté par
SarunasAndSoOn
, déc. 19 2011 05:06
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#352
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 08:13
Guest_Luc0s_*
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Thanks for taking over while I was away Lotion.
Now, lets see what we have to deal with here... *sigh* a bunch of idealistic morons. Well, lets get started shall we? *start reading every new comment from the beginning*
Now, lets see what we have to deal with here... *sigh* a bunch of idealistic morons. Well, lets get started shall we? *start reading every new comment from the beginning*
#353
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 08:15
Lumikki
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Exactly.BellaStrega wrote...
I have posted facts. You insist, against all logic and reason, that they are not facts. Therefore, it's clearly a waste of effort to discuss this with you.
No point of discuss with different ways to looking informations, if the other person doesn't accept anything else than they own viewpoint. So, why waste time.
Evidence -> persons A conclusions -> Result A
Evidence -> persons B conclusions -> Result B
Person A only accept result A, while person B accept both result A and B. Reasons why person A accept only result A has nothing to do with logic, but because the result is what persons A wants (his own).
Modifié par Lumikki, 21 décembre 2011 - 08:18 .
#354
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 08:16
AlexXIV
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Funny how you saw a bunch of idealistic morons before you got started reading.Luc0s wrote...
Thanks for taking over while I was away Lotion.
Now, lets see what we have to deal with here... *sigh* a bunch of idealistic morons. Well, lets get started shall we? *start reading every new comment from the beginning*
#355
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 08:17
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jreezy wrote...
I could've sworn you were advocating for destroying the base in another thread.Luc0s wrote...
*snip*
I was playing devil's advocate, if you understand what I mean. I was trying to show Saphra that destroying the base is also an understandable decision. However, I never said that I personally thought that destroying the base is the most logical decision, because it isn't. Personally I always kept the Collector base in every single "realistic playthrough".
#356
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 08:19
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AlexXIV wrote...
Funny how you saw a bunch of idealistic morons before you got started reading.Luc0s wrote...
Thanks for taking over while I was away Lotion.
Now, lets see what we have to deal with here... *sigh* a bunch of idealistic morons. Well, lets get started shall we? *start reading every new comment from the beginning*
I already started reading, just not EVERYTHING FROM THE BEGINNING. But I already saw enough to see that it's the same old bullsh*t all over again.
Well see. I'm reading the new comments from the beginning now as we speak.
#357
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 08:21
BellaStrega
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Luc0s wrote...
Thanks for taking over while I was away Lotion.
Now, lets see what we have to deal with here... *sigh* a bunch of idealistic morons. Well, lets get started shall we? *start reading every new comment from the beginning*
And we can see the level of discourse with which you are most comfortable.
#358
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 08:22
AlexXIV
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Luc0s wrote...
jreezy wrote...
I could've sworn you were advocating for destroying the base in another thread.Luc0s wrote...
*snip*
I was playing devil's advocate, if you understand what I mean. I was trying to show Saphra that destroying the base is also an understandable decision. However, I never said that I personally thought that destroying the base is the most logical decision, because it isn't. Personally I always kept the Collector base in every single "realistic playthrough".
We are not even argueing that destroying the base is the most logical decision. We are argueing that keeping isn't either. Whatever you choose, it may have good or bad results. That's the reality which people like Lotion don't want to accept. Sometimes you have to make a choice without exactly knowing what the result will be. But you are in the place and time to make it regardless.
#359
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:20
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[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Exogeni team studied dragonsteeth. Got indoctrinated. Got husked. Tali dialogue indicates this in a known occurance termed 'machine cultists'. Ergo, there is established galactic record of this pattern repeating iteself.
*snip*
It's possible you don't consider my claim 'backed up' at this point. If so, no reasoned or evidence backed argument will sway you.
[/quote]
While all this is true, it still doesn't weight up against the fact that WITHOUT STUDYING REAPER TECHNOLOGY, WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE TO TELL THE TALE.
You can give me ten, twenty, fifty examples of when reaper tech screwed things up, it still doesn't change the fact that without studying the tech, we wouldn't be alive right now. The cycle would have continued, Shepard wouldn't be ressurected by the Lazerus Project, we wouldn't be able to go through the Omega 4 Relay, we wouldn't have been able to destroy the Collector ship with the Thanix Cannon and we wouldn't have EDI on board of the SR2 to save the damn ship when we aren't around ourselves.
Besides, NOT ALL reaper tech indoctrinates. You should know that. The Mass Relays didn't indoctrinate anyone. The broken parts of Sovereign after the events of ME1 didn't indoctrinate anyone and so far the Collector Ship and Collector Base don't seem to be able to indoctrinate anyone (else Shepard's squad would have felt it by now).
Hell, when you save your Normandy crew from the Collector base (Dr. Chackwas & co.) they aren't indoctrinated, so for now it's save to say that the Collector base most likely doesn't indoctrinate people. That still doesn't mean we shouldn't be cautious when we study the Collector base of course.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
You are failing to observe an important distinction. You are describing two distinct sets of things as "reaper tech". One is technology which the Reapers happen to use. This includes the Mass Relays, the Citadel, the Mass Effect, metals and fire. These things have a long established history of not presenting an indoctrination threat, and can be replicated safely.
There are NO in game instances of anyone studying anything related to the construction of a Reaper which did not end in indoctrination. And that is exactly the tech TIM wants to study.
[/quote]
The Thanix Cannon didn't indoctrinate anyone. When Sovereign was destroyed, all his body parts crashed everwhere all over the Citadel. However, no one on the Citadel was indoctrinated. Lots of pirates salvaged parts from Sovereign but luckly some Turians also salvaged parts and managed to turn it into the Thanix Cannon.
So far it seems the Collector base also doesn't indoctrinate, since the Normandy crew that got abducted isn't indoctrinated and Shepard's squad didn't feel any signs of indoctrination either.
But still, you don't get it do you? EVEN IF studying reaper tech like this comes with the risk of indoctrination, it's a risk we should be willing to take! The Thanix Cannon alone should already be enough for you to see what great things we can achieve by studying reaper tech.
And once again: STUDYING REAPER TECH SAVED OUR LIFES! How many times do I need to repeat myself before it sinks in that thick skull of yours?
Studying Object Rho saved us from an early reaper arrival. TIM's knowledge on reaper tech (that he gained from studying reaper tech) made the Lazerus Project possible, without it Shepard would still be death. And finally, the research on the delerict reaper resulted in finding the reaper IFF, which allowed Shepard to go through the Omega 4 Relay. Without this IFF, Shepard would never have been able to finish his suicide mission.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
1) Irrelevent: Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
2) Citation please.
[/quote]
1. This "stopped clock" probably knows more about reaper tech than anyone else in the galaxy. One of the Mass Effect books said so. I'll look it up for you later.
2. Again, one of the Mass Effect books said so. I'll look it up later for you.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
That rather depends on when you do 'Arrival' doesn't it? Since you can do it before the SM, you can go into the SM with an exact timeline.
[/quote]
Sure, but that still doesn't justify destroying the collector base as I explained earlier.
A short time to research the base which gives us new info and possible new tech > no time to research which means no new info and no new tech at all.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Yes, I could have. In fact I did, if you had bothered to read my post. However we are discussing TIM, who has already lost AT LEAST THREE science teams to indoctrination. Not a stellar record of properly managing a known risk, wouldn't you say?
[/quote]
That still doesn't justify destroying the Collector base for the reasons I already stated dozens of times over.
Also, do you honestly think the Alliance or Council would be better with reaper tech? You think they would know how to deal with it? Like it or not, but TIM probably knows best how to deal with reaper tech. After all, he knows more about reaper tech and indoctrination than anyone else in the galaxy. TIM knows even more about indoctrination and reaper tech than Shepard himself.
Check this link and go to point 8: http://www.newsarama...3-110707-1.html
I rest my case.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Look up the term counter-productive and get back to me.
[/quote]
I know what counter-productive is. You apperantly don't.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Not torturing dozens of children to death and driving Jack crazy would have resulted in dozens more human biotics, and a more useful Jack. Would she have been as powerful? We have absolutely no way of knowing given the garbage science that went into making her. I'd give long odd that sending her to learn with an Asari would have produced a much more powerful and useful agent. We have no way of knowing however. We do know for a dead cold certainty that there would be dozens more human biotics in the galaxy without the Teltin program however. Is one powerful and crazy biotic who hates your guts and is a psycopathic killer better than dozens of weaker and loyal biotics? I'm going with "no."
[/quote]
I'm going with "yes".
Jack made going through the seeker swarm at the Collector base possible. Dozens of weaker biotics (who might not even be loyal) wouldn't.
Seriously, you really can't make an argument without pulling stuff out of your ****? Seriously, "dozens of weaker and loyal biotics", really? What makes you think these "dozens of weaker biotics" are loyal at all? Stop making crap up to support your already weak position.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The Rachni program got absolutely no results. It did lead to the death of every cerberus agent and scientist involved, the death of many Alliance marines, and could easily have resulted in an existential threat to humanity
and even the galaxy at large.
[/quote]
The rachni program was from a rogue cell that wasn't under the authority of TIM. Pay more attention to the lore next time before you blame stuff on TIM that isn't TIM's fault.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Do you savvy yet? Why not take those scientists that TIM is almost certain to gety indoctrinated or killed and get them to replicate the Klendagon cannon instead? Why not use those resources to build an Ark ship and launch it into interstellar space for a few hundred years? Then humanity can survive this cycle, and have 50,000 full years to prep for the next one. To turn the Citadel into a trap for the Reapers instead of us.
[/quote]
That's all nice and cool and I certainly credit you for your creative ideas, but that doesn't change the game. ME2 is still the way it is and you still only have the choice "blow up the base" or "keep base and hand it over to TIM".
So lets not make crazy stuff up and stick to the options that are actually present in the game, shall we?
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
It's a choice for how to allocate finite resources. I can think of better ways to spend them than on a death trap, and I bet you could too, if you tried.
[/quote]
Death trap? You mean the Collector base? You don't know if it's a death trap. You only ASSUME it's a death trap. It probably isn't.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Kindly explain what reward you think we are likely to research that will be profitable given the logistics involved. Otherwise your argument has all the weight of a kid saying "It will too work!
"
[/quote]
Kindly explain how you think blowing up our only change to learn more about the reapers is a smart thing to do with the reapers already at your doorstep.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The risk of producing indoctinating tech and distributing it galaxy wide is not a large threat? Justitify please.
[/quote]
Yes, you justify it please. Justify the part that I underlined. How did you came up with that bull? Because that doesn't make any sense.
What in the world makes you think that the tech WE produce and distribute, will indoctrinate people? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, the original reaper tech itself might be indoctrinating, but the tech we build based on the reaper tech certainly doesnt!
Or are you saying that we should all be afraid of our Thanix Cannon right now? You're afraid our Thanix Cannon is going to indoctrinate our Normandy crew?
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Kindly explain how the Collector base will give us a magic wand that lets us win.
[/quote]
I'm not saying it does, but it might.
Now, why don't you kindly explain YOUR tactic against the reapers?
Yes, I'm curious. What is YOUR plan?
My plan is studying that Collector base, in the hope we find something useful that might give us an odd against the reapers. At the same time, I'd let Shepard do his thing and unite the galaxy. I know a united galaxy won't be enough to defeat the reapers, so I pray to God that the Collector base will turn something up that might give us that edge we need.
Now, what is your alternative? What will you do gain that edge needed to defeat the reapers? Uniting the galaxy alone won't be enough, you know that.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The Collector base is exactly equivalent to Sarens Krogan cloning facility. Does capturing the cloneing facility tell you how to kill an alredy existing Krogan horde? No. Blowing it up merely let's you stop a new horde from being made.
[/quote]
Yes, the Collector base is exactly like the Saren's Korgan facility. Does capturing the cloning facility tell you how Saren cloned his Krogan? YES! Could this info help in finding a cure for the genophage? YES!
You're short sighted. All you can think about is blowing up because you're scared. But I look beyond that. I see the potential of the Collector base. I see the potential of Saren's facility (to bad we didn't have the chance to keep it).
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
In point of fact the Reapers have already lost.
[/quote]
*watches the Fall of Earth ME3 trailer* Yeah, it certainly looks like the reapers already lost. /sarcasm
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The current battle is just to save the people alive today, the future is already ours.
[/quote]
Ehhhh?
No it's not. If the reapers succeed in winning this war in ME3 (and they most likely will win it if we don't come up with a solid plan to counter them), then they'll fix the Citadel and the cycle will just continue the way it always did.
Seriously, I don't know what drugs you're on, but you're certainly delusional.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Do try and recall that we don't need a magic wand. Sovereign fell to purely off the shelf tech and weapons.
[/quote]
Did you pay ANY ATTENTION during ME1 AT ALL?
No, Sovereign destroyed the entire Citadel fleet and ripped half of the Alliance fleet apart while hacking the Citadel at the same time.
The only reason why Sovereign fell, is because Shepard destroyed robo-Saren, which caused a temporary overload on Sovereign, which is why is shields and barriers fell. Only because of that, the Alliance was able to hurt the reaper and finally destroy it. Before that, the Alliance wasn't even able to touch the damn reaper. Their futile attacks didn't even tickle Sovereign.
Now, imagine over 100 of these Sovereign monsters attacking us at the same time. HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU EVER GOING TO STOP THAT WITH OUR CURRENT TECH?
Exogeni team studied dragonsteeth. Got indoctrinated. Got husked. Tali dialogue indicates this in a known occurance termed 'machine cultists'. Ergo, there is established galactic record of this pattern repeating iteself.
*snip*
It's possible you don't consider my claim 'backed up' at this point. If so, no reasoned or evidence backed argument will sway you.
[/quote]
While all this is true, it still doesn't weight up against the fact that WITHOUT STUDYING REAPER TECHNOLOGY, WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE TO TELL THE TALE.
You can give me ten, twenty, fifty examples of when reaper tech screwed things up, it still doesn't change the fact that without studying the tech, we wouldn't be alive right now. The cycle would have continued, Shepard wouldn't be ressurected by the Lazerus Project, we wouldn't be able to go through the Omega 4 Relay, we wouldn't have been able to destroy the Collector ship with the Thanix Cannon and we wouldn't have EDI on board of the SR2 to save the damn ship when we aren't around ourselves.
Besides, NOT ALL reaper tech indoctrinates. You should know that. The Mass Relays didn't indoctrinate anyone. The broken parts of Sovereign after the events of ME1 didn't indoctrinate anyone and so far the Collector Ship and Collector Base don't seem to be able to indoctrinate anyone (else Shepard's squad would have felt it by now).
Hell, when you save your Normandy crew from the Collector base (Dr. Chackwas & co.) they aren't indoctrinated, so for now it's save to say that the Collector base most likely doesn't indoctrinate people. That still doesn't mean we shouldn't be cautious when we study the Collector base of course.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
You are failing to observe an important distinction. You are describing two distinct sets of things as "reaper tech". One is technology which the Reapers happen to use. This includes the Mass Relays, the Citadel, the Mass Effect, metals and fire. These things have a long established history of not presenting an indoctrination threat, and can be replicated safely.
There are NO in game instances of anyone studying anything related to the construction of a Reaper which did not end in indoctrination. And that is exactly the tech TIM wants to study.
[/quote]
The Thanix Cannon didn't indoctrinate anyone. When Sovereign was destroyed, all his body parts crashed everwhere all over the Citadel. However, no one on the Citadel was indoctrinated. Lots of pirates salvaged parts from Sovereign but luckly some Turians also salvaged parts and managed to turn it into the Thanix Cannon.
So far it seems the Collector base also doesn't indoctrinate, since the Normandy crew that got abducted isn't indoctrinated and Shepard's squad didn't feel any signs of indoctrination either.
But still, you don't get it do you? EVEN IF studying reaper tech like this comes with the risk of indoctrination, it's a risk we should be willing to take! The Thanix Cannon alone should already be enough for you to see what great things we can achieve by studying reaper tech.
And once again: STUDYING REAPER TECH SAVED OUR LIFES! How many times do I need to repeat myself before it sinks in that thick skull of yours?
Studying Object Rho saved us from an early reaper arrival. TIM's knowledge on reaper tech (that he gained from studying reaper tech) made the Lazerus Project possible, without it Shepard would still be death. And finally, the research on the delerict reaper resulted in finding the reaper IFF, which allowed Shepard to go through the Omega 4 Relay. Without this IFF, Shepard would never have been able to finish his suicide mission.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
1) Irrelevent: Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
2) Citation please.
[/quote]
1. This "stopped clock" probably knows more about reaper tech than anyone else in the galaxy. One of the Mass Effect books said so. I'll look it up for you later.
2. Again, one of the Mass Effect books said so. I'll look it up later for you.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
That rather depends on when you do 'Arrival' doesn't it? Since you can do it before the SM, you can go into the SM with an exact timeline.
[/quote]
Sure, but that still doesn't justify destroying the collector base as I explained earlier.
A short time to research the base which gives us new info and possible new tech > no time to research which means no new info and no new tech at all.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Yes, I could have. In fact I did, if you had bothered to read my post. However we are discussing TIM, who has already lost AT LEAST THREE science teams to indoctrination. Not a stellar record of properly managing a known risk, wouldn't you say?
[/quote]
That still doesn't justify destroying the Collector base for the reasons I already stated dozens of times over.
Also, do you honestly think the Alliance or Council would be better with reaper tech? You think they would know how to deal with it? Like it or not, but TIM probably knows best how to deal with reaper tech. After all, he knows more about reaper tech and indoctrination than anyone else in the galaxy. TIM knows even more about indoctrination and reaper tech than Shepard himself.
Check this link and go to point 8: http://www.newsarama...3-110707-1.html
I rest my case.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Look up the term counter-productive and get back to me.
[/quote]
I know what counter-productive is. You apperantly don't.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Not torturing dozens of children to death and driving Jack crazy would have resulted in dozens more human biotics, and a more useful Jack. Would she have been as powerful? We have absolutely no way of knowing given the garbage science that went into making her. I'd give long odd that sending her to learn with an Asari would have produced a much more powerful and useful agent. We have no way of knowing however. We do know for a dead cold certainty that there would be dozens more human biotics in the galaxy without the Teltin program however. Is one powerful and crazy biotic who hates your guts and is a psycopathic killer better than dozens of weaker and loyal biotics? I'm going with "no."
[/quote]
I'm going with "yes".
Jack made going through the seeker swarm at the Collector base possible. Dozens of weaker biotics (who might not even be loyal) wouldn't.
Seriously, you really can't make an argument without pulling stuff out of your ****? Seriously, "dozens of weaker and loyal biotics", really? What makes you think these "dozens of weaker biotics" are loyal at all? Stop making crap up to support your already weak position.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The Rachni program got absolutely no results. It did lead to the death of every cerberus agent and scientist involved, the death of many Alliance marines, and could easily have resulted in an existential threat to humanity
and even the galaxy at large.
[/quote]
The rachni program was from a rogue cell that wasn't under the authority of TIM. Pay more attention to the lore next time before you blame stuff on TIM that isn't TIM's fault.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Do you savvy yet? Why not take those scientists that TIM is almost certain to gety indoctrinated or killed and get them to replicate the Klendagon cannon instead? Why not use those resources to build an Ark ship and launch it into interstellar space for a few hundred years? Then humanity can survive this cycle, and have 50,000 full years to prep for the next one. To turn the Citadel into a trap for the Reapers instead of us.
[/quote]
That's all nice and cool and I certainly credit you for your creative ideas, but that doesn't change the game. ME2 is still the way it is and you still only have the choice "blow up the base" or "keep base and hand it over to TIM".
So lets not make crazy stuff up and stick to the options that are actually present in the game, shall we?
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
It's a choice for how to allocate finite resources. I can think of better ways to spend them than on a death trap, and I bet you could too, if you tried.
[/quote]
Death trap? You mean the Collector base? You don't know if it's a death trap. You only ASSUME it's a death trap. It probably isn't.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Kindly explain what reward you think we are likely to research that will be profitable given the logistics involved. Otherwise your argument has all the weight of a kid saying "It will too work!
"[/quote]
Kindly explain how you think blowing up our only change to learn more about the reapers is a smart thing to do with the reapers already at your doorstep.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The risk of producing indoctinating tech and distributing it galaxy wide is not a large threat? Justitify please.
[/quote]
Yes, you justify it please. Justify the part that I underlined. How did you came up with that bull? Because that doesn't make any sense.
What in the world makes you think that the tech WE produce and distribute, will indoctrinate people? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, the original reaper tech itself might be indoctrinating, but the tech we build based on the reaper tech certainly doesnt!
Or are you saying that we should all be afraid of our Thanix Cannon right now? You're afraid our Thanix Cannon is going to indoctrinate our Normandy crew?
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Kindly explain how the Collector base will give us a magic wand that lets us win.
[/quote]
I'm not saying it does, but it might.
Now, why don't you kindly explain YOUR tactic against the reapers?
Yes, I'm curious. What is YOUR plan?
My plan is studying that Collector base, in the hope we find something useful that might give us an odd against the reapers. At the same time, I'd let Shepard do his thing and unite the galaxy. I know a united galaxy won't be enough to defeat the reapers, so I pray to God that the Collector base will turn something up that might give us that edge we need.
Now, what is your alternative? What will you do gain that edge needed to defeat the reapers? Uniting the galaxy alone won't be enough, you know that.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The Collector base is exactly equivalent to Sarens Krogan cloning facility. Does capturing the cloneing facility tell you how to kill an alredy existing Krogan horde? No. Blowing it up merely let's you stop a new horde from being made.
[/quote]
Yes, the Collector base is exactly like the Saren's Korgan facility. Does capturing the cloning facility tell you how Saren cloned his Krogan? YES! Could this info help in finding a cure for the genophage? YES!
You're short sighted. All you can think about is blowing up because you're scared. But I look beyond that. I see the potential of the Collector base. I see the potential of Saren's facility (to bad we didn't have the chance to keep it).
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
In point of fact the Reapers have already lost.
[/quote]
*watches the Fall of Earth ME3 trailer* Yeah, it certainly looks like the reapers already lost. /sarcasm
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
The current battle is just to save the people alive today, the future is already ours.
[/quote]
Ehhhh?
No it's not. If the reapers succeed in winning this war in ME3 (and they most likely will win it if we don't come up with a solid plan to counter them), then they'll fix the Citadel and the cycle will just continue the way it always did.Seriously, I don't know what drugs you're on, but you're certainly delusional.
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...
Do try and recall that we don't need a magic wand. Sovereign fell to purely off the shelf tech and weapons.
[/quote]
Did you pay ANY ATTENTION during ME1 AT ALL?
No, Sovereign destroyed the entire Citadel fleet and ripped half of the Alliance fleet apart while hacking the Citadel at the same time.
The only reason why Sovereign fell, is because Shepard destroyed robo-Saren, which caused a temporary overload on Sovereign, which is why is shields and barriers fell. Only because of that, the Alliance was able to hurt the reaper and finally destroy it. Before that, the Alliance wasn't even able to touch the damn reaper. Their futile attacks didn't even tickle Sovereign.
Now, imagine over 100 of these Sovereign monsters attacking us at the same time. HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU EVER GOING TO STOP THAT WITH OUR CURRENT TECH?
#360
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:24
goofyomnivore
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Consider the Reaper in the Mass Effect 3 trailer Rannoch took an orbital strike and got up just fine and is probably half the size/power of Sovereign at best. I don't think our current technology is going to hang with the big dogs such as Sovereign. However that much is implied/foreshadowed in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2.
Modifié par strive, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:25 .
#361
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:25
Guest_Luc0s_*
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AlexXIV wrote...
We are not even argueing that destroying the base is the most logical decision. We are argueing that keeping isn't either. Whatever you choose, it may have good or bad results. That's the reality which people like Lotion don't want to accept. Sometimes you have to make a choice without exactly knowing what the result will be. But you are in the place and time to make it regardless.
Fair enough. But from the 2 options we're given, keeping the base is the most sensible thing to do, if you can look past your bias against TIM that is.
Sure, I hate TIM as much as the next person, but that doesn't stop me from thinking rationally. I realize that TIM knows more about indoctrination and reaper tech than anyone else in the galaxy. Keeping the Collector base and giving it to TIM is not a comfortable thing to do (hell, if you only knew the sense of foreboding that I felt in my gut when I saw that smile of TIM when I handed over the base), but it's our only hope right now.
Without the Collector base, there is no hope. The base might be our only chance of finding info on the reapers that might give us the edge to defeat them.
Modifié par Luc0s, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:29 .
#362
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:29
goofyomnivore
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I would assume the Collector Beam technology is a cousin to the Reaper's red beam of death. The codex flat out says if we get our hands on enough Collector beam weapons we can reverse engineer it. I think that is justification enough to save the base by improving our armory.
Modifié par strive, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:29 .
#363
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:30
Guest_Luc0s_*
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strive wrote...
I would assume the Collector Beam technology is a cousin to the Reaper's red beam of death. The codex flat out says if we get our hands on enough Collector beam weapons we can reverse engineer it. I think that is justification enough to save the base by improving our armory.
I like this human. He understands.
#364
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:36
Someone With Mass
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strive wrote...
I would assume the Collector Beam technology is a cousin to the Reaper's red beam of death. The codex flat out says if we get our hands on enough Collector beam weapons we can reverse engineer it. I think that is justification enough to save the base by improving our armory.
We already have. It's called the Thanix, and it's not restricted to just a cannon in ME3 either.
Not to mention that it'd increase Cerberus' weaponry, not necessarily ours.
#365
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:37
AlexXIV
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Well if there is no hope without the base, then there was no hope before we got it either. And still we fought and we won. 'I won't let fear compromise who I am'. Cheesy as this line may be, I like it. Giving a tool that turns living people into giant murderous machines of all people to Cerberus isn't something I want my Shepard to be associated with. Sometimes a honorable death is preferable to a life in disgrace.Luc0s wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
We are not even argueing that destroying the base is the most logical decision. We are argueing that keeping isn't either. Whatever you choose, it may have good or bad results. That's the reality which people like Lotion don't want to accept. Sometimes you have to make a choice without exactly knowing what the result will be. But you are in the place and time to make it regardless.
Fair enough. But from the 2 options we're given, keeping the base is the most sensible thing to do, if you can look past your bias against TIM that is.
Sure, I hate TIM as much as the next person, but that doesn't stop me from thinking rationally. I realize that TIM knows more about indoctrination and reaper tech than anyone else in the galaxy. Keeping the Collector base and giving it to TIM is not a comfortable thing to do (hell, if you only knew the sense of foreboding that I felt in my gut when I saw that smile of TIM when I handed over the base), but it's our only hope right now.
Without the Collector base, there is no hope. The base might be our only chance of finding info on the reapers that might give us the edge to defeat them.
#366
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:38
AlexXIV
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Not really. Codex entries are not the holy cows of any Bioware game. At best it is an assumtion of the person who wrote it. Which may be true ... or not.Luc0s wrote...
strive wrote...
I would assume the Collector Beam technology is a cousin to the Reaper's red beam of death. The codex flat out says if we get our hands on enough Collector beam weapons we can reverse engineer it. I think that is justification enough to save the base by improving our armory.
I like this human. He understands.
#367
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:39
goofyomnivore
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It is in the codex. It is in the debriefing of a mission(TIM text or whatever you call it). It is in the description of the Collector Beam heavy weapon. etc. I think they're trying to hammer something home.
Modifié par strive, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:40 .
#368
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:40
BellaStrega
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I'm sure they can salvage sufficient examples from the wreckage.
#369
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:42
goofyomnivore
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We already have. It's called the Thanix, and it's not restricted to just a cannon in ME3 either.
They made the Thanix off of SCRAPS. Imagine if they had countless samples(intact).
As for Cerberus that is a valid opinion I suppose. However I would rather face empowered Cerberus versus machines who have made killing their million year art.
Modifié par strive, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:43 .
#370
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:48
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AlexXIV wrote...
Well if there is no hope without the base, then there was no hope before we got it either. And still we fought and we won.
Sure, we might have won the battle, but we cannot hope to win the war without something to give us an edge.
The only reason we killed Sovereign was because Shepard managed to take it's shields down when he defeated robo-Saren. But imagine what would have happened if Sovereign's shields never fell down. Would we still have won? Would we still have killed it just in time? I highly doubt it.
How on earth can you hope to defeat a massive ARMY of those things if you can't even defeat ONE of them without some sort of Deus Ex Machina (a DEM like Sovereign's shields failing after defeating robo-Saren)?
AlexXIV wrote...
'I won't let fear compromise who I am'. Cheesy as this line may be, I like it. Giving a tool that turns living people into giant murderous machines of all people to Cerberus isn't something I want my Shepard to be associated with. Sometimes a honorable death is preferable to a life in disgrace.
What's so "honorable" about throwing away possibly valuable tech, thus possibly dooming the entire galaxy, just because you don't want to be associated with Cerberus? My god, don't you see how egomaniacal that sounds? And people dare to complain about renegades? My god...
Throwing away a possible solution to the reaper threat resulting in death, just because you don't want to be associated with Cerberus, isn't honorable, it's insane.
Modifié par Luc0s, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:50 .
#371
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:49
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No, what I mean is that they haven't showed a single sign of a reason or will to share the potential technology, and many people have always said that they think Cerberus won't be a threat to the Reapers on their own, so there's my reason to not give them the base.
Nothing beneficial on my side that we don't already have.
Oh, and we don't need any more samples to improve the Thanix as long as we understand the basic structure of the weapon.
Nothing beneficial on my side that we don't already have.
Oh, and we don't need any more samples to improve the Thanix as long as we understand the basic structure of the weapon.
#372
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:52
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AlexXIV wrote...
Not really. Codex entries are not the holy cows of any Bioware game. At best it is an assumtion of the person who wrote it. Which may be true ... or not.Luc0s wrote...
strive wrote...
I would assume the Collector Beam technology is a cousin to the Reaper's red beam of death. The codex flat out says if we get our hands on enough Collector beam weapons we can reverse engineer it. I think that is justification enough to save the base by improving our armory.
I like this human. He understands.
Righttttttt....... so the entire Mass Effect story is just an assumption? Yeahhhhhh that makes sense....
Like it or not, the Codex entries are part of the Mass Effect lore and canon. So yes, in a way, they are the "holy cow".
Besides, this "assumption" from the BioWare writers themselves is probably much more accurate than your assumptions. What makes you think your assumption is worth more than the "assumption" of the BioWare writers? Last time I checked, the "assumption" of the BioWare writers are part of the Mass Effect lore and canon, while your assumptions aren't.
Modifié par Luc0s, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:55 .
#373
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:56
goofyomnivore
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Oh, and we don't need any more samples to improve the Thanix as long as we understand the basic structure of the weapon.
We're not improving the Thanix directly. We're possibly taking a step forward (beam technology). I assume it is a step forward since Reapers use it and give it to their minions rather than handing out Thanix canons. Hell they even say in game Collector technology is like a generation ahead of ours.
No, what I mean is that they haven't showed a single sign of a reason or will to share the potential technology
Ah yes "argumentum ad ignorantiam" we meet again.
Modifié par strive, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:57 .
#374
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:57
AlexXIV
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Because the base is a tool to turn living beings into murderous machines. Not sure why you left this part in your quoting me, but I guess you had your reasons ...Luc0s wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
Well if there is no hope without the base, then there was no hope before we got it either. And still we fought and we won.
Sure, we might have won the battle, but we cannot hope to win the war without something to give us an edge.
The only reason we killed Sovereign was because Shepard managed to take it's shields down when he defeated robo-Saren. But imagine what would have happened if Sovereign's shields never fell down. Would we still have won? Would we still have killed it just in time? I highly doubt it.
How on earth can you hope to defeat a massive ARMY of those things if you can't even defeat ONE of them without some sort of Deus Ex Machina (a DEM like Sovereign's shields failing after defeating robo-Saren)?AlexXIV wrote...
'I won't let fear compromise who I am'. Cheesy as this line may be, I like it. Giving a tool that turns living people into giant murderous machines of all people to Cerberus isn't something I want my Shepard to be associated with. Sometimes a honorable death is preferable to a life in disgrace.
What's so "honorable" about throwing away possibly valuable tech, thus possibly dooming the entire galaxy, just because you don't want to be associated with Cerberus? My god, don't you see how egomaniacal that sounds? And people dare to complain about renegades? My god...
Throwing away a possible solution to the reaper threat resulting in death, just because you don't want to be associated with Cerberus, isn't honorable, it's insane.
Even giving it to the Alliance would be wrong, but I'd do it out of a sense of duty and trust into the Alliance. A trust that I don't share with TIM or Cerberus. It's not about being associated with Cerberus. That train left the station right when Shep agreed to work with Cerberus to begin with. My problem is that I don't want my Shep to be the person who gives the this genocidal machinery to the most untrustworthy person in the galaxy. Because I don't want anything bad comming from it being tracked back to my Shep. If that's insane then oh well ... I must be it.
#375
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 09:59
AlexXIV
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Luc0s wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
Not really. Codex entries are not the holy cows of any Bioware game. At best it is an assumtion of the person who wrote it. Which may be true ... or not.Luc0s wrote...
strive wrote...
I would assume the Collector Beam technology is a cousin to the Reaper's red beam of death. The codex flat out says if we get our hands on enough Collector beam weapons we can reverse engineer it. I think that is justification enough to save the base by improving our armory.
I like this human. He understands.
Righttttttt....... so the entire Mass Effect story is just an assumption? Yeahhhhhh that makes sense....
Like it or not, the Codex entries are part of the Mass Effect lore and canon. So yes, in a way, they are the "holy cow".
Besides, this "assumption" from the BioWare writers themselves is probably much more accurate than your assumptions. What makes you think your assumption is worth more than the "assumption" of the BioWare writers? Last time I checked, the "assumption" of the BioWare writers are part of the Mass Effect lore and canon, while your assumptions aren't.
Using codex entries as 'undisputable truths' is metagaming. I explained in another thread already. No information is ever indisputed, unless god wrote it. If not then it is something you heard or read somewhere which can be true or not.
