1127 réponses à ce sujet

[BellaStrega]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes I can think and believe you are biased whether you admit it or not. The jails are full of innocent people, you know. Your own opinion on your own bias does not mean a thing. My examples are as BS as yours. Your claims to know something or have some sort calculation going when making this decision are also void. I have never seen these calculations you made and I have asked for them several times. You just assume that if you would calculate the pro and cons that the pros would outweigh the cons. But you have nothing that comes close to a proof or actual calculation. I am just thinking you believe yourself to be much smarter than you are, smarter than we are. You think we don't understand the 'points' you are making. I can speak only for myself. I understand your points pretty good. They are mostly opinions on what you believe to be facts. You believe in Cerberus and in TIM. Or you wouldn't give him the base. No logical conclusion in the world can make up for the question whether you trust TIM or not. Because if he uses the base differently than you assume all your calculations go to hell. Because then you have no base, no knowledge, no nothing. And TIM has everything he ever wanted.

I only have three words to add to this:

Dunning. Kruger. Effect.

Well, that's odd: This link was stripped out of my post:

http://en.wikipedia....g–Kruger_effect

Modifié par BellaStrega, 21 décembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if there is no hope without the base, then there was no hope before we got it either. And still we fought and we won. 'I won't let fear compromise who I am'. Cheesy as this line may be, I like it. Giving a tool that turns living people into giant murderous machines of all people to Cerberus isn't something I want my Shepard to be associated with. Sometimes a honorable death is preferable to a life in disgrace.

So to avoid "living in disgreace" let's the whole galaxy die "an honorabvle death"?

All of this bulls***ery is based on fear and hate  of TIM and CErberus. "I won't let fear compromise who I am".
Yeah right.

The irony of Shepaprd going around, asking races to put their TRUST ISSUES and ANIMOSITY aside and work together, and then at the same time refusing to put his own TRUST ISSUES and ANIMOSITY  agaisnt the only group that was actually doing something agaisnt the reapers.

You people say there's no guarantee that Cerberus won't turn on everyone (despite there being no sensible reason)?
You simply assume TIM will do somethig so irrational AND that all of Cerberus will follow (no one will be asking "shoudn't we be fighting the reapers"?) After all, it's not like we never seen people leaving Cerberus over far smaller issues, is it?
But you refuse to assume the Quarians might turn on the Geth in the middle of the war (and thus put a spanner in your war effort). That the Krogan or the Turian, or the Asari might do something? But yeah, you trust them, don't ya?

Unlike you, some of us do really put our trust issues aside and work for the survival of the galaxy.

[BellaStrega]

There is an extremely sensible reason for Cerberus to turn on everyone: Indoctrination.

Do you need someone to draw you a map?

Modifié par BellaStrega, 21 décembre 2011 - 11:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No, what I mean is that they haven't showed a single sign of a reason or will to share the potential technology, and many people have always said that they think Cerberus won't be a threat to the Reapers on their own, so there's my reason to not give them the base.

False. Cerberus does share..quietly.

Aslo, Cerberus wouldn't be a threat to the reapers on their own, in a MILITARY sense. Tehy dont' haev the manpower and ships.

But suppose Cerberus finds a way to defend against indoctrination? Reapers coudl still curbstomp them easily, but if that tech gets distributed among the races? Big difference.

[Someone With Mass]

Yeah, because Cerberus has shown such strong commitment to sharing technology and information with other races. The pro-human group likes sharing such things with aliens.

Also, Cerberus can be a threat to Shepard, which could make it go badly for the war effort. And no race/faction is military equipped to have an even fight with the Reapers on their own.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Listen to what you're saying. Cerberus, the biggest PRO-HUMANITY group ever, using the Collector base to turn millions of HUMANS into a reaper? That's not really pro-human now is it?

Besides, even if Cerberus did want to do that, they wouldn't have stopped the Collectors. They would have waited until the human reaper is (nearly) finished and THEN send Shepard in to take over the base AND reaper.

So really, you're not making any sense now.

That Cerberus is pro-human you learn from Cerberus themselves. Conveniently. I said it before, TIM is as pro-human as Hitler was pro-German. In the end the germans had to pay the price for trusting him. I learn from history. You simply accept things as fact and truths even though you have no reason to. Other than trusting someone who doesn't trust anyone and who nobody really trusts either. TIM's trust in Shepard doesn't even go as far as telling Shepard of the traps he/she is running into. Why would Shepard suddenly think that TIM can be trusted?

No, you learn it from everyhwere.
Their past dealings, their goals, the people working for them and the Shadow-Broker files. It's everywhere in the game.

And you learn nothing from history, since the Allies worked with Stalin.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...

There is an extremely sensible reason for Cerberus to turn on everyone: Indoctrination.

Do you need someone to draw you a map?

That reason can be applied to EVERYONE. Alliance, Turians, Krogans, Quarians, etc... So why do you trust any one of htem to watch your back in the war?

Also, given Cerberuses cell-like structure, the idea of whole Cerberus being indoctrinated is rather unlikely.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if there is no hope without the base, then there was no hope before we got it either. And still we fought and we won. 'I won't let fear compromise who I am'. Cheesy as this line may be, I like it. Giving a tool that turns living people into giant murderous machines of all people to Cerberus isn't something I want my Shepard to be associated with. Sometimes a honorable death is preferable to a life in disgrace.

So to avoid "living in disgreace" let's the whole galaxy die "an honorabvle death"?

All of this bulls***ery is based on fear and hate  of TIM and CErberus. "I won't let fear compromise who I am".
Yeah right.

The irony of Shepaprd going around, asking races to put their TRUST ISSUES and ANIMOSITY aside and work together, and then at the same time refusing to put his own TRUST ISSUES and ANIMOSITY  agaisnt the only group that was actually doing something agaisnt the reapers.

You people say there's no guarantee that Cerberus won't turn on everyone (despite there being no sensible reason)?
You simply assume TIM will do somethig so irrational AND that all of Cerberus will follow (no one will be asking "shoudn't we be fighting the reapers"?) After all, it's not like we never seen people leaving Cerberus over far smaller issues, is it?
But you refuse to assume the Quarians might turn on the Geth in the middle of the war (and thus put a spanner in your war effort). That the Krogan or the Turian, or the Asari might do something? But yeah, you trust them, don't ya?

Unlike you, some of us do really put our trust issues aside and work for the survival of the galaxy.

You're just preaching your sermon again and again. I have read all of this before, in all your previous posts. I am not senile (yet), I didn't forget it. I can repeat myself again and again aswell but I don't think you're listening.

I never claimed my choices are more rational or safe than yours. What I dispute is that yours are as logical and safe as you claim. You are the one who thinks he is the most logic, most reasonable person around. And I am telling you that you're not because the difference between your logic decision and my emotional are marginal. What ever you decide you have no facts or proof to determine which will go right or wrong. Anything can happen from the point we make the decision. And I have to make a decision that I cannot base on facts I at least want to base it on something. Something being morale and ethics in this case. If what you said was true I would even agree to give the base to Cerberus. But the point you keep overlooking is that what you say is not true. It is speculation, opinion, bias, denial, etc. I could go on for a long time. You don't know the right thing to do more than I or anyone else. We all make bets and hope for the win.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]BellaStrega wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Let me ask you - how do you intend to fight indoctrination? How? Do you have some plan? Some idea how to stop our own defense force from killign eachother?
Of course you don't. The only way to find out how to defend agaisnt that is to study it. Something you apparently want to avoid. I'm beining to think you want the reapers to win.

[/quote]

Hahaha, oh my god, did you forget we're discussing a game? Reapers win, Reapers lose, I want to play a video game where Commander Shepard kicks a lot of ass and looks good while doing it. [/qutoe]

So that's no then....

When out of any argument, argue that its' a game.....


[quote]
As for your question: Study the damned dragon's teeth that are all over the place to understand indoctrination. It's probably many times safer to deal with those than to deal with the base, and since it's not Cerberus, a pro-human survivalist terrorist organization, odds are good that the research will be shared among other species if such research is relevant to the game in the first place.
[/quote]

Dragon teeth create husks.
Husks are not the same as indoctrinated.

Also, base holds a whole lot of other tech.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Listen to what you're saying. Cerberus, the biggest PRO-HUMANITY group ever, using the Collector base to turn millions of HUMANS into a reaper? That's not really pro-human now is it?

Besides, even if Cerberus did want to do that, they wouldn't have stopped the Collectors. They would have waited until the human reaper is (nearly) finished and THEN send Shepard in to take over the base AND reaper.

So really, you're not making any sense now.

That Cerberus is pro-human you learn from Cerberus themselves. Conveniently. I said it before, TIM is as pro-human as Hitler was pro-German. In the end the germans had to pay the price for trusting him. I learn from history. You simply accept things as fact and truths even though you have no reason to. Other than trusting someone who doesn't trust anyone and who nobody really trusts either. TIM's trust in Shepard doesn't even go as far as telling Shepard of the traps he/she is running into. Why would Shepard suddenly think that TIM can be trusted?

No, you learn it from everyhwere.
Their past dealings, their goals, the people working for them and the Shadow-Broker files. It's everywhere in the game.

And you learn nothing from history, since the Allies worked with Stalin.

It's called propaganda. Do I need to link the explaination to you? Do you believe everything you get told in an TV ad just because it is on tv and other people fall for it? It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about Cerberus and TIM. What is imporant is what Shepard (and you) think about them. What other people think about Cerberus may influence you but doesn't have to. Miranda and Jakob both side with Shepard, not TIM. Also the rest of the cerberus crew. Do you really think they are all idiots? In your scenario Shepard is the only one who trusts in TIM.

[InvincibleHero]

AlexXIV wrote...

I explain it like that. You play russian roulette. You have 5 empty chambers and one with a bullet. So does everytime you pull the trigger make it more likely or less likely that the next time you shoot yourself? 10 out of 10 is not enough for maths. You only need one fail to disprove a theory but you need to prove that it will work everytime if you want to establish that it works everytime. You may have positive statistics. But anything based on statistics alone will fail. That's why we don't let computers make decissions. Common sense is more imporant than statistics.

I dispute this as illogical. I turned my computer on say 1000 times and next time it doesn't work so the logical conclusion according to you is it never worked to begin with. A sample of ten is small true, but you didn't claim that. it can still achieve what is called a signifcant result. 

 Theories are accepted as long as they have an error less than alpha. There are things like experimenter error and equipment failures that have to be accounted for. If something occurs 95 out of 100 times it is quite likely that is true and the five that happened to be negative were due to outside factor not an invalid hypothesis.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also, given Cerberuses cell-like structure, the idea of whole Cerberus being indoctrinated is rather unlikely.

Unless they do it on purpose in an attempt to make their soldiers more obedient and loyal to their cause.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes I can think and believe you are biased whether you admit it or not. The jails are full of innocent people, you know. Your own opinion on your own bias does not mean a thing. My examples are as BS as yours. Your claims to know something or have some sort calculation going when making this decision are also void. I have never seen these calculations you made and I have asked for them several times. You just assume that if you would calculate the pro and cons that the pros would outweigh the cons. But you have nothing that comes close to a proof or actual calculation. I am just thinking you believe yourself to be much smarter than you are, smarter than we are. You think we don't understand the 'points' you are making. I can speak only for myself. I understand your points pretty good. They are mostly opinions on what you believe to be facts. You believe in Cerberus and in TIM. Or you wouldn't give him the base. No logical conclusion in the world can make up for the question whether you trust TIM or not. Because if he uses the base differently than you assume all your calculations go to hell. Because then you have no base, no knowledge, no nothing. And TIM has everything he ever wanted.

I don't care what you think - I care what you can PROVE.

And you can prove nothing. That's the whole point. That's what everything reloves around.
The calcuation were posted in this thread. So either you're lying in an attempt to save face or you're skipping posts.

Also, no on the last bit. You obviously aren't reading, cause that point has been covered a long time ago.

[AlexXIV]

InvincibleHero wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I explain it like that. You play russian roulette. You have 5 empty chambers and one with a bullet. So does everytime you pull the trigger make it more likely or less likely that the next time you shoot yourself? 10 out of 10 is not enough for maths. You only need one fail to disprove a theory but you need to prove that it will work everytime if you want to establish that it works everytime. You may have positive statistics. But anything based on statistics alone will fail. That's why we don't let computers make decissions. Common sense is more imporant than statistics.

I dispute this as illogical. I turned my computer on say 1000 times and next time it doesn't work so the logical conclusion according to you is it never worked to begin with. A sample of ten is small true, but you didn't claim that. it can still achieve what is called a signifcant result. 

 Theories are accepted as long as they have an error less than alpha. There are things like experimenter error and equipment failures that have to be accounted for. If something occurs 95 out of 100 times it is quite likely that is true and the five that happened to be negative were due to outside factor not an invalid hypothesis.

So what is your theory about your computer? That because you turned it on 1000 times it will always start working when you turn it on? I can tell you already it won't be the case. One day it won't work anymore. I am not even saying that the base is turning out to be a mistake for sure. I am saying the risk is just as high as the risk that I lose imporantant information that will make it impossible to win the war against the Reapers. Which is what base-keepers claim. That it will be impossible to win the war without the base. I can see how Shepard could fear that, but I cannot see how Shepard can be sure of it.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes I can think and believe you are biased whether you admit it or not. The jails are full of innocent people, you know. Your own opinion on your own bias does not mean a thing. My examples are as BS as yours. Your claims to know something or have some sort calculation going when making this decision are also void. I have never seen these calculations you made and I have asked for them several times. You just assume that if you would calculate the pro and cons that the pros would outweigh the cons. But you have nothing that comes close to a proof or actual calculation. I am just thinking you believe yourself to be much smarter than you are, smarter than we are. You think we don't understand the 'points' you are making. I can speak only for myself. I understand your points pretty good. They are mostly opinions on what you believe to be facts. You believe in Cerberus and in TIM. Or you wouldn't give him the base. No logical conclusion in the world can make up for the question whether you trust TIM or not. Because if he uses the base differently than you assume all your calculations go to hell. Because then you have no base, no knowledge, no nothing. And TIM has everything he ever wanted.

I don't care what you think - I care what you can PROVE.

And you can prove nothing. That's the whole point. That's what everything reloves around.
The calcuation were posted in this thread. So either you're lying in an attempt to save face or you're skipping posts.

Also, no on the last bit. You obviously aren't reading, cause that point has been covered a long time ago.

Blah you don't even know that calculations are about numbers obviously. You list things that you think are facts and call it calculations. Kind of figures.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You proved nothing.

I asked, multiple times, to debunk the reaper strength.
You havn't. You didn' teven try to tackle it. You keep avpiding to tackle the issue.

I DARE you to tackle it. 

You didn't counter any of my claim there.
I countered all of your pathetic ones (that Soverign and Citadel fleet paragraph of yours  was hilarious)

Prove to me that the reapers can't take out many of our ships and retreat without us being able to do jack s*** about it. Then prove to me that in light of such hit-and-run attacks, we can win.

You didn't counter anything I said. You just told me I was wrong and moved on, which you are doing again. You don't argue; all you do is contradict. I'm convinced at this point that you either did not read or did not understand anything I did write, as you seem incapable of actually addressing it.

And what are yo udpign now? Contradicting. Yes, I did coutner your claims. Want me to go hunt?

Ok..


You said:

And no, there really is not enough
information to decide whether or not it's possible to fight the
Reapers. Yes, Sovereign was difficult to stop. No, we don't know what
all of the Reapers are like and they may not all be the same kind of
monsters that Sovereign was. We do know that in order to take on the
intelligent spacefaring races in each cycle that Reapers shut down the
Mass Relays, to better divide and conquer. Surely that wouldn't be
necessary if they were undefeatable. Sovereign was a surprise attack.
Surprise attacks have a tendency to be extremely damaging before anyone
can react. And finally, Sovereign was backed by a geth fleet, which no
doubt had a lot to do with how dangerous the attack was.

My replay:

There is enough information. But (to throw your words back at you) you jsut don't want to see.
I don't even have to assume all are like Sovering. That some are is enough.

"Our
numbers will darken the sky of every world" - does that seems to you
like there's only a few of them? After they've been around for millions
of years? With the harvested resources of an entire galaxy (each cycle),
and given the amount of ships the races have, assuming reapers have millions of ships is perfectly valid.

As
to "they wouldn't shut down the relays if they didn't need to". Nope.
It just makes things easier. Why on earth would any sensible race make
things harder when they can make it easier?

***
Sovereigns
attack on the Citadel fleet was a surprise. You're talking about the
initial attack onthe Citadel. But sicne Sovereign made abee-line for the
Citadel wihout fireing a shot, and hte citadel fleet was busy with the
geth, it doesn't really provide much interms of reaper poeer.

I'm taking on the attakc of 5th Fleet on Sovereign - which was also a surprise
Sovereign was caught alone, with it's pants down.
It
was immobile and couldn't bring all of it's guns to bear, busy with
hacking the Citadel, no support from the geth and attacked by a whole,
fresh fleet. And it still was tearing the fleet apart so bad, they wanted to retreat! The fleeet that had dreadnoughts!
And
when it was brought down it was because of the overload caused by
Sheppard. It was tanking the firepwoer of an entire fleet for an
eternity. And without Shepaprd it would have continued to do so for a
lot longer (confirmed by devs).

So if Sovereign in such utterly unfavorable conditions can do that, what could it cause in a clean fight?
From the codex entry, it should be capable of destroying 7-9 ship every few seconds.

Then
will you ignore the scenario in which repaers retreat when shields are
low? Ya know, the one also supported by codex entires where calculations
come back as complte disaster for council races, even in an ambush
scenario?

If you need a refresher - Reapers are faster, have better FTL, better sensors. Ship in FTL cannot be tracked.
Reaper can tank an entire fleet for at least a minute. It can destroy several ships every few seconds.
Do the math.

Textbook example of debunking your arguments. Or shoudl I say, utterly demolishing them....

What human error? Provide and example in the context of the reaper war.

The human error of giving a giant robot smoothie machine to Cerberus. You might as well add a ribbon and a card to make it clear that you're handing a giftwrapped Cerberus over to the Reapers for their own personal use during the invasion.

LOl...yeah, but no. For one the CB is far more than a "smoothie machine". For another, you can't say they will be indoctrinated.

Besides, that's not what I asked for.  I asked how can we win agaisnt hte reapers? You say human error.
So what kind of human error can help US?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2011 - 11:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also, given Cerberuses cell-like structure, the idea of whole Cerberus being indoctrinated is rather unlikely.

Unless they do it on purpose in an attempt to make their soldiers more obedient and loyal to their cause.

In which case they wouldn't serve the reapers, but rather TIM.
Ergo, no sense in them attacking others.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Listen to what you're saying. Cerberus, the biggest PRO-HUMANITY group ever, using the Collector base to turn millions of HUMANS into a reaper? That's not really pro-human now is it?

Besides, even if Cerberus did want to do that, they wouldn't have stopped the Collectors. They would have waited until the human reaper is (nearly) finished and THEN send Shepard in to take over the base AND reaper.

So really, you're not making any sense now.

That Cerberus is pro-human you learn from Cerberus themselves. Conveniently. I said it before, TIM is as pro-human as Hitler was pro-German. In the end the germans had to pay the price for trusting him. I learn from history. You simply accept things as fact and truths even though you have no reason to. Other than trusting someone who doesn't trust anyone and who nobody really trusts either. TIM's trust in Shepard doesn't even go as far as telling Shepard of the traps he/she is running into. Why would Shepard suddenly think that TIM can be trusted?

No, you learn it from everyhwere.
Their past dealings, their goals, the people working for them and the Shadow-Broker files. It's everywhere in the game.

And you learn nothing from history, since the Allies worked with Stalin.

It's called propaganda. Do I need to link the explaination to you? Do you believe everything you get told in an TV ad just because it is on tv and other people fall for it? It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about Cerberus and TIM. What is imporant is what Shepard (and you) think about them. What other people think about Cerberus may influence you but doesn't have to. Miranda and Jakob both side with Shepard, not TIM. Also the rest of the cerberus crew. Do you really think they are all idiots? In your scenario Shepard is the only one who trusts in TIM.

So what the game tells me isn't importnat?
The way they are described in various materials and by various characters isn't importnat?

Your'e basicly telling me that nothing but your oppiion matters. Frack the game and the codex.

People both inside Cerberus and those that hate cerberus call them pro-human and human-centric.

As to the crew - irrelevant really. They disagree wiht using the base, but not because they think TIM wouldn' use it agaisnt the reapers. And, that conversation ahppens AFTER the choice, hence irrelevant.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Dunning. Kruger. Effect.

Well, that's odd: This link was stripped out of my post:

http://en.wikipedia....g–Kruger_effect

That wiki article sounds like an accurate description of Alex and you indeed.

Wow, great comeback! *claps*

What's next, we shouting 'NO U!' at each other?

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So what the game tells me isn't importnat?
The way they are described in various materials and by various characters isn't importnat?

Your'e basicly telling me that nothing but your oppiion matters. Frack the game and the codex.

People both inside Cerberus and those that hate cerberus call them pro-human and human-centric.

As to the crew - irrelevant really. They disagree wiht using the base, but not because they think TIM wouldn' use it agaisnt the reapers. And, that conversation ahppens AFTER the choice, hence irrelevant.

I never said that what the games tells you is unimportant, I say though that things can interpreted differently.

Obviously you know what the crew thinks. Because you just explained to me what they do think and don't think. Maybe you explain it to them aswell just in case they don't know.

I am not telling you that only my opinion is what matters. I am telling you that my opinion is as good as yours. Something you dispute all day on this forum. I don't even attack your reasoning or logic unless you claim it is better than everyone else's.

My main point is that I am not even saying that keeping the base is a bad decision. I am saying it can turn out bad. I am also admitting that destroying the base can turn out bad. What I am argueing for is that my decision to destroy it is also valid. Something you deny me. I am not the one telling other people how to play. I am not the one telling other people they are stupid or illogical if they don't play the game my way.

[Sgt Bilko]

din't TIM say in a cut-scene "Cerberus exists to further humanity whatever the cost" or something like that correct me if i'm wrong