1127 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Luc0s wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

It's called propaganda. Do I need to link the explaination to you? Do you believe everything you get told in an TV ad just because it is on tv and other people fall for it? It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about Cerberus and TIM. What is imporant is what Shepard (and you) think about them. What other people think about Cerberus may influence you but doesn't have to. Miranda and Jakob both side with Shepard, not TIM. Also the rest of the cerberus crew. Do you really think they are all idiots? In your scenario Shepard is the only one who trusts in TIM.

No one trusts TIM as a person. I don't trust TIM as a person.

However, I DO trust that TIM will take the effort to stop the reapers and I DO trust that TIM will try to use the base against the reapers, not Shepard. After all, the reapers are the biggest threat here, not Shepard. I mean, if Shepard was a threat to Cerberus, then why would they have revived him in the first place?

I mean sure, you can worry about TIM. You can mistrust him all you like. But shouldn't you worry more about the reapers. TIM does. In fact, he's the only person in ME2 that is actually trying to do something against the reapers. The Council still prefers to stick their head into the sand and the Alliance to too focussed on Cerberus that they forget to see the real problem. Like it or not, but TIM is the only one actually doing something about the reaper threat and without him, you wouldn't even be here. If it wasn't for TIM, Shepard would be DEAD right now.

TIM being what he is, I would have imagined that Shepard was a tool, to be used and disposed of when necessary. His resurrection was expedient due to his success against the Reapers and the contacts which he possessed allowing him a chance of success. TIM seems more interested in survival than that of stopping the Reapers, if it can be achieved by stoping the Reapers, then so be it, if not then I'd imagine he would consider other contingency plans, hence the plan for the collector base.

True it contains technology the Reapers don't want this cycle to possess, the same as the Thanix cannon, but they remain cheap copies of the original technology generated on a vast scale and may magnitudes more powerful. I think TIM has realised going toe to toe with The Reapers, given their superiority is not a certain outcome and has a contingency plan in place.

Then I suppose you have a better plan? Lets hear it. How are you going to handle the upcomming reaper invasion? You know that at it's current state, the galaxy doesn't stand a chance, right? The only hope you can have is to find some kind of miracle Deus Ex Machina or MacGuffin. But you don't even TRY to find that Deus Ex Machina / MacGuffin. The only chance of finding this MacGuffin you've had so far is the Collector base, and you flushed it down the toilet.

Confidence born of ignorance. I could tell you, but that would involve spoliers.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
No one trusts TIM as a person. I don't trust TIM as a person.

However, I DO trust that TIM will take the effort to stop the reapers and I DO trust that TIM will try to use the base against the reapers, not Shepard. After all, the reapers are the biggest threat here, not Shepard. I mean, if Shepard was a threat to Cerberus, then why would they have revived him in the first place?

I mean sure, you can worry about TIM. You can mistrust him all you like. But shouldn't you worry more about the reapers. TIM does. In fact, he's the only person in ME2 that is actually trying to do something against the reapers. The Council still prefers to stick their head into the sand and the Alliance to too focussed on Cerberus that they forget to see the real problem. Like it or not, but TIM is the only one actually doing something about the reaper threat and without him, you wouldn't even be here. If it wasn't for TIM, Shepard would be DEAD right now.

As much as I hate to go in world war 2 all the time I always get reminded of it. Did you know that the western world thought that Hitler is a minor threat comared the communists? Did you know they wanted to ally with Hitler against Stalin? If Hitler never betrayed Stalin they would have been allies against the western forces. Point is that the western allies were lucky that Hitler was a megalomaniac who thought he can conquer russia and fight them at the same time. Also point is that the western allies were stupid underestimating Hitler at first.

Did the western world face a threat stronger than all of them together several times over? Nope.
Also, the western allies allied wiht Stalin (who wasn't any better then Hitler)

So your point - if you had any - was moot.

Whether the Reapers are the greater threat doesn't change the chance of TIM being dangerous enough to help the Reapers more than Shepard, voluntarily or accidently doesn't matter to the result. Just because you have a 'greater threat' it would still be foolish to ignore the smaller threats. Because any small threat may become a critical weakness. If you ever lose the big picture because you focus on only one enemy even though you have many, you invite everyone of those other enemies to catch you off guard.

What is foolish is being so focused on the POSSIBILTIY of a smaller threat, that you're hurting your changes against a CERTAIN greater threat.

And if Cerberus is a "small" threat, how big of a threat are other factions? Are Krogan not Dangerous? Are Geth not far more dangerous?

Why do you insist of looking at this in a 2 group way - Cerberus and Everyone Else. And threat Everyone Else as some singualr entity?

My point, you missed it. I was argueing to show that ignoring a supposedly smaller threat may go wrong. Which it did, so my point wasn't moot. In the worst case, as I wrote, Stalin would have allied with Hitler and then we wouldn't have this discussion now most likely. It was Hitler's ego that let him attack russia and BETRAY Stalin. Before that they were friends you know. The western allies allied with Stalin later because they had the same enemy which proves my theory that your enemy's enemy is not automatically your friend.

I don't lose focus on the Reapers, I merely don't ignore Cerberus as a threat. I am also aware of other possible threats you mention. When Shepard makes the decision it is not about Krogans or Rachni or Quarians or Geth. It is about the base and TIM/Cerberus. I agree that blowing up the base probably should be a renegade decision or possibly neither paragon nor renegade. Fact is I'd blow it up anyway and if these discussions on the BSN have done anything then they convinced me more that it was the right call. Simpy because I don't trust him and thus have no reason to expect him to keep his word and thus it is a no-win situation for me. Even if there is imporant information on the base, TIM is rather going to use it for his own goals than for the common good, period. And if TIM is already having plans for the galaxy after the Reapers are defeated, why shouldn't Shepard have thoughts about it?

[BellaStrega]

Luc0s wrote...

And I was unaware that flushing a potential lead against the reapers through the toilet was a good plan.


An indoctrinated Cerberus is only a small problem. I mean, we already have MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of indoctrinated/husks against us. How big can Cerberus be? A few dozen, maybe a few hundred men at most?

Sure, having a few 100 extra indoctrinated against us is not nice, but how does that compare to FLUSHING YOUR ONLY LEAD AGAINGST THE REAPERS THROUGH THE TOILET? <- READ THAT PART AND LET IT SINK IN FOR A MOMENT.

Again, I'll spell it out for you: 

'a few 100 extra indoctrinated' V.S 'flushing your only lead against the reapers through the toilet'


Get it? No? Still don't get it? Well, you know what they say: You can lead a horse to the river, but you can't make it drink.

A few hundred indoctrinated people with a giant Reaper-making slushy machine. Did you forget that part? You may very well end up with Cerberus picking up where the Collectors left off in the time left before the Reapers invade. After all, it's not as if the Collectors only had one ship, too.

never mind the post-war consequences of a well-funded terrorist organization having access to the ability to melt people down and turn them into war machines, plus all the other fun little technologies. Surely there's no possible way that could go wrong, either?

Modifié par BellaStrega, 21 décembre 2011 - 12:45 .

[Dave of Canada]

I forgot that Cerberus was a bigger threat than galactic extinction.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
I think, no, I KNOW

You almost had it right. You don't know, you think you know.

No, I am right. I do KNOW.


'A few extra 100 indoctrinated servants' is not reason enough to flush your only hope against the reapers through the toilet.

The potential rewards oughtweight the potential risks.

The potential risk is a fully indoctrinated Cerberus, which equals a few extra 100 indoctrinated servants.
The potential reward is a solution to the reaper problem, or at least a new piece of tech that might give us an edge.


Obviously, the potential reward outweights the potential risk. But obviously you don't wanna see this. Oh that horse and that river... ohhhh that damnable horse and that river.... *sigh*

There is no reward. Even if Cerberus finds something that would give us an edge they won't share it with the world. Because they want to use this edge later when the galaxy is in shatters because of the war. And it wouldn't help them much if everyone had the same knowledge. If you want to go war with a mad man you have to learn to think like a mad man. You can say that would be unreasonable of TIM in face of the danger. But that assumes that TIM is going to be reasonable. And I am telling you he will only be reasonable to the point where he is supposed to give away the only thing that will enable him to rule the galaxy. And then he won't give it to you.

[BellaStrega]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I forgot that Cerberus was a bigger threat than galactic extinction.

Now that is a peculiar conclusion to draw.

[Dave of Canada]

Arcian wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I forgot that Cerberus was a bigger threat than galactic extinction.

You also forgot that they are actively working with and aiding those who are trying to bring about said galactic extinction, making them partially responsible for it.

Totally something I'm considering when they're working with me in Mass Effect 2 and have shown repeatedly that they're working against the Reapers. Thanks, I forgot.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 décembre 2011 - 12:56 .

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I forgot that Cerberus was a bigger threat than galactic extinction.

Galactic extincion. Like that is going to happen when the Reapers win?

See how you already go wrong even you didn't even get started?

It is extincion of the sapient races, not extinction of the galaxy.

[billy the squid]

Cerberus is not a greater threat, but I wouldn't trust TIM ever and fully expect him to turncoat if necessary. It's a means of survival for him and Cerberus, it's a pragmatic decision nothing more, The Reapers bring almost inevitable extinction, fighting is great, but someone as machiavellian as TIM really doesn't have another card to play? He just throws in his lot with Shepard and hopes for the best.

Simplistic approach for a man whom is so illusive that he's been given that title.

Modifié par billy the squid, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I forgot that Cerberus was a bigger threat than galactic extinction.

Galactic extincion. Like that is going to happen when the Reapers win?

See how you already go wrong even you didn't even get started?

It is extincion of the sapient races, not extinction of the galaxy.

If that was the only thing the term meant, you'd have a point. But it isn't, so you don't.

What it is also understood to mean is the extinction of life across the galaxy. 'Galaxy' is the adjective (the scale), not the subject, of the extinction.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I forgot that Cerberus was a bigger threat than galactic extinction.

Galactic extincion. Like that is going to happen when the Reapers win?

See how you already go wrong even you didn't even get started?

It is extincion of the sapient races, not extinction of the galaxy.

If that was the only thing the term meant, you'd have a point. But it isn't, so you don't.

What it is also understood to mean is the extinction of life across the galaxy. 'Galaxy' is the adjective (the scale), not the subject, of the extinction.

It is still the wrong scale. They won't destroy all the suns, planets, not even all life. Just those that have grown past a certain development stage. I only commented it because that's how this fighting usually starts. Some renegade comming in the thread, blowing his own points out of proportion. If we would have a clear language in these discussions we would have alot less 'wall of text' moments.

Also it isn't even a question whether TIM or the Reapers are more dangerous. The question is will trusting TIM pay off? I say no.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

It is still the wrong scale. They won't destroy all the suns, planets, not even all life. Just those that have grown past a certain development stage. I only commented it because that's how this fighting usually starts. Some renegade comming in the thread, blowing his own points out of proportion. If we would have a clear language in these discussions we would have alot less 'wall of text' moments.

Also it isn't even a question whether TIM or the Reapers are more dangerous. The question is will trusting TIM pay off? I say no.

Given the barrage of "Cerberus will enslave EVERYONE" posts we used t ohave, I find this funny.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

It is still the wrong scale. They won't destroy all the suns, planets, not even all life. Just those that have grown past a certain development stage. I only commented it because that's how this fighting usually starts. Some renegade comming in the thread, blowing his own points out of proportion. If we would have a clear language in these discussions we would have alot less 'wall of text' moments.

Also it isn't even a question whether TIM or the Reapers are more dangerous. The question is will trusting TIM pay off? I say no.

Given the barrage of "Cerberus will enslave EVERYONE" posts we used t ohave, I find this funny.

Well I wouldn't agree with anyone who claims this. Maybe I shouldn't have said some renegade, but rather some person. Unfortunate choice of words on my part.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
My point, you missed it. I was argueing to show that ignoring a supposedly smaller threat may go wrong. Which it did, so my point wasn't moot. In the worst case, as I wrote, Stalin would have allied with Hitler and then we wouldn't have this discussion now most likely. It was Hitler's ego that let him attack russia and BETRAY Stalin. Before that they were friends you know. The western allies allied with Stalin later because they had the same enemy which proves my theory that your enemy's enemy is not automatically your friend.

Gone wrong?
As in "mass genocide of all sentient races" wrong? Nope.

And comparisons made with comepltely different situations uinder completely different circumstances are moot. Since they don't apply.

And since the western forces allied themselves with an evil man (Stalin) and it worked well for them....I fai lto see what exactly you think you have proven.

I don't lose focus on the Reapers, I merely don't ignore Cerberus as a threat. I am also aware of other possible threats you mention. When Shepard makes the decision it is not about Krogans or Rachni or Quarians or Geth. It is about the base and TIM/Cerberus. I agree that blowing up the base probably should be a renegade decision or possibly neither paragon nor renegade. Fact is I'd blow it up anyway and if these discussions on the BSN have done anything then they convinced me more that it was the right call. Simpy because I don't trust him and thus have no reason to expect him to keep his word and thus it is a no-win situation for me. Even if there is imporant information on the base, TIM is rather going to use it for his own goals than for the common good, period. And if TIM is already having plans for the galaxy after the Reapers are defeated, why shouldn't Shepard have thoughts about it?

Yeah...all of those trust issue and blindness?
On full display here...

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...
A few hundred indoctrinated people with a giant Reaper-making slushy machine. Did you forget that part? You may very well end up with Cerberus picking up where the Collectors left off in the time left before the Reapers invade. After all, it's not as if the Collectors only had one ship, too.

Given the Collectors needed millions more to make the reaper CORE (and hte reaper was still far from beign done), I wouldn't be too concerned. And even if Cerberus managed to build 1 more reaper...
Given that there's thousand of them coming your way, 1 more really isn't that important.

never mind the post-war consequences of a well-funded terrorist organization having access to the ability to melt people down and turn them into war machines, plus all the other fun little technologies. Surely there's no possible way that could go wrong, either?

Given that all other races can (trough Shep) get to the base if necessary? Given that all otehr races will have reaper tech on their own by then? Given that all other races outnumber Cerberus by such a  redicolous margin, that even if Cerberus pumped out husks non-stop, they'd still be crushed by sheer weight of numbers?

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I forgot that Cerberus was a bigger threat than galactic extinction.

Galactic extincion. Like that is going to happen when the Reapers win?

See how you already go wrong even you didn't even get started?

It is extincion of the sapient races, not extinction of the galaxy.

If that was the only thing the term meant, you'd have a point. But it isn't, so you don't.

What it is also understood to mean is the extinction of life across the galaxy. 'Galaxy' is the adjective (the scale), not the subject, of the extinction.

It is still the wrong scale. They won't destroy all the suns, planets, not even all life.

And no one is saying they would. The planets aren't the targets, or even alive, and aren't the subject of the context. Earth has had planetary extinction events. That does not imply Earth itself went extinct... it means much/most life ON Earth went extinct.

And we've always known that only 2% of the galaxy has been explored. That has still not prevented the residents of the Mass Effect galaxy to use the term 'galaxy' to show the expanse of distribution. The galaxy is a political unit as well as a literal one.

Just those that have grown past a certain development stage. I only commented it because that's how this fighting usually starts. Some renegade comming in the thread, blowing his own points out of proportion. If we would have a clear language in these discussions we would have alot less 'wall of text' moments.

In this case, however, the fault is entirely yours. Dave was entirely within the common, appropriate useage of his language. There was no unclear context. Then you attack him using an argument that doesn't even stand up on its own.

You are the offending party. A victim argument does not apply to you.

Also it isn't even a question whether TIM or the Reapers are more dangerous. The question is will trusting TIM pay off? I say no.

At ME2, the only payoff that bears consideration is whether he will fight the Reapers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Sadly, my "great comeback" is pretty accurate and correct. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

Actually, if anything, I have a tendency to underestimate myself.

http://en.wikipedia....postor_syndrome

Anyway, I'm not making astounding claims about how supersmartlogicalrational I am here. I've actually been pretty reasonable, but the responses are downright weird and rude.

Plus, I can still tell the difference between a microchip and a neuron, which I have to admit, must count for something.

Edit: Okay, I haven't been playing as nice as I could have.

So... Is constant linking of articles supposed to impress anyone?
What is their purpose? To try to get some sort of credibility? To make yourself look smarter?

Ya know, some psychologists would say that show deep underlying insecurity..

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
My point, you missed it. I was argueing to show that ignoring a supposedly smaller threat may go wrong. Which it did, so my point wasn't moot. In the worst case, as I wrote, Stalin would have allied with Hitler and then we wouldn't have this discussion now most likely. It was Hitler's ego that let him attack russia and BETRAY Stalin. Before that they were friends you know. The western allies allied with Stalin later because they had the same enemy which proves my theory that your enemy's enemy is not automatically your friend.

Gone wrong?
As in "mass genocide of all sentient races" wrong? Nope.

And comparisons made with comepltely different situations uinder completely different circumstances are moot. Since they don't apply.

And since the western forces allied themselves with an evil man (Stalin) and it worked well for them....I fai lto see what exactly you think you have proven.

I don't lose focus on the Reapers, I merely don't ignore Cerberus as a threat. I am also aware of other possible threats you mention. When Shepard makes the decision it is not about Krogans or Rachni or Quarians or Geth. It is about the base and TIM/Cerberus. I agree that blowing up the base probably should be a renegade decision or possibly neither paragon nor renegade. Fact is I'd blow it up anyway and if these discussions on the BSN have done anything then they convinced me more that it was the right call. Simpy because I don't trust him and thus have no reason to expect him to keep his word and thus it is a no-win situation for me. Even if there is imporant information on the base, TIM is rather going to use it for his own goals than for the common good, period. And if TIM is already having plans for the galaxy after the Reapers are defeated, why shouldn't Shepard have thoughts about it?

Yeah...all of those trust issue and blindness?
On full display here...

So you're saying I should ally with he Reapers against Cerberus? I'll discuss with my advisors about this plan.

It'd be a trust issue if I could not trust anyone. But being paragon I trust alot of people and factions. Just not TIM. Doesn't it somehow interest you why the mostly trusting Paragons not trust TIM? While all the untrusting renegades suddenly trust TIM? Weird, isn't it?

[Lotion Soronarr]

billy the squid wrote...

Confidence born of ignorance. I could tell you, but that would involve spoliers.

Which is why you actually don't have a plan.

A plan that's revealed in ME3 doesn't exist at the time of the CB decision.
Not to mention that if hte leaks are accurate, ME3 plot sucks donkey balls, but that's another topic alltogether.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

So you're saying I should ally with he Reapers against Cerberus? I'll discuss with my advisors about this plan.

It'd be a trust issue if I could not trust anyone. But being paragon I trust alot of people and factions. Just not TIM. Doesn't it somehow interest you why the mostly trusting Paragons not trust TIM? While all the untrusting renegades suddenly trust TIM? Weird, isn't it?

Since trust isn't actually part of the P/R system, no, it isn't, because it never applied.

Most people's trust issues with Cerberus are more than matched by other groups they're quite happy to ally with (the Council), and even exceeded by groups they would also ally with were it part of the game (the Batarian hegemony).

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

So you're saying I should ally with he Reapers against Cerberus? I'll discuss with my advisors about this plan.

It'd be a trust issue if I could not trust anyone. But being paragon I trust alot of people and factions. Just not TIM. Doesn't it somehow interest you why the mostly trusting Paragons not trust TIM? While all the untrusting renegades suddenly trust TIM? Weird, isn't it?

Since trust isn't actually part of the P/R system, no, it isn't, because it never applied.

Most people's trust issues with Cerberus are more than matched by other groups they're quite happy to ally with (the Council), and even exceeded by groups they would also ally with were it part of the game (the Batarian hegemony).

I disagree. I think trust is indeed part of the paragon/renegade system. For example I let the Rachni Queen go because I trusted her words while Renegades didn't. Same with the Geth/Heretics. You trust the Geth to be an ally so you strengthen them by rewriting. Or the Council at the end of ME1. Same thing. Paragon is about following rules and trust in others. Renegade is about breaking rules and only trust yourself.

This is exactly why Renegades choose the base. They get to the point with empty hands. Because they screwed over their allies. So the base is their last hope. They choose to keep it out of desperation. Paragons have made allies and friends everywhere and have other options.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

So you're saying I should ally with he Reapers against Cerberus? I'll discuss with my advisors about this plan.

It'd be a trust issue if I could not trust anyone. But being paragon I trust alot of people and factions. Just not TIM. Doesn't it somehow interest you why the mostly trusting Paragons not trust TIM? While all the untrusting renegades suddenly trust TIM? Weird, isn't it?

Since trust isn't actually part of the P/R system, no, it isn't, because it never applied.

Most people's trust issues with Cerberus are more than matched by other groups they're quite happy to ally with (the Council), and even exceeded by groups they would also ally with were it part of the game (the Batarian hegemony).

I disagree. I think trust is indeed part of the paragon/renegade system. For example I let the Rachni Queen go because I trusted her words while Renegades didn't. Same with the Geth/Heretics. You trust the Geth to be an ally so you strengthen them by rewriting. Or the Council at the end of ME1. Same thing. Paragon is about following rules and trust in others. Renegade is about breaking rules and only trust yourself.

Common misconceptions.

The Paragon isn't about trust, it's about mercy. You can assign trust as your personal motivation, but that's your addition to the game. Not what the game gives you. Mercy is independent of trust, and the Paragon spectrum is no more about trust or rule-following than the Renegade spectrum. Paragon wavers between 'lawful' and 'feelgood' as much as Renegade bounces between 'libertarian' and 'authoritarian.'

This is exactly why Renegades choose the base. They get to the point with empty hands. Because they screwed over their allies. So the base is their last hope. They choose to keep it out of desperation. Paragons have made allies and friends everywhere and have other options.

If that's your projection onto an entire spectrum of people, far be it from me to dispute your delusion.

So, sure. That's exactly what happened.