1127 réponses à ce sujet

[Kekkis]

Lotion, add humans to that list of easy targets. Reapers don´t even need to do anything and punch of people will find a way to end up being husks or get weird ideas that Reapers are gods or something stupid like that.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I may do injustice to some renegades, probably you too with my generalisation. But I think it is still motivation for many to keep it. It's almost logical. If you renegaded your way through ME and ME2, will you return to the Alliance with empty hands? Or rather stay with Cerberus? Seems obvious to me.

How about PARAGONS that keep the Collector base because it makes sense? Ever thought about that one?

I'm almost 100% Paragon. Yet I keep the Collector base. Wadda ya say about that huh?

That you screwed up?

lol, actually, it's you who screwed up when you blew your only possible intel on the reapers sky high. My decision proves I can look past the paragon/renegade meter and actually base my decisions on what actually makes sense.

So far, Paragon always made more sense than Renegade, but when it comes to destroying your only possible intel on the reapers with the justification "I don't let fear compromise who I am", I can't help but sake my head at dumb Shepard and reload my save-game to make the better less moronic decision: keeping the base.

I'm usually full paragon and 30 to 40 percent renegade. So I make some renegade decisions. But the base issue is defining paragons as much as the council issue in ME1. They are probably the most important decisions for ME3. So if you are 100% paragon and the base is your only renegade decision, you probably screwed up.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Destroying Collector Base for second time won't be much hard if things get ugly. Consider the fact that the human reaper inside it is destroyed and there is no harbinger.
I don't ruin the chance of obtaining reaper technology because of the fear of Cerberus or the base itself possibly going rogue and against us.

[AlexXIV]

Well I'd estimate the chance of Cerberus betraying Shepard was like 99.9%. In this case I can just blow it up and save myself the trouble of doing it later, with the Reapers at my butt etc.

[BellaStrega]

At this point, I think I'm pretty happy that Cerberus turns on Shepard in ME3. I don't know the whys of it (although I do suspect a lot of indoctrination and huskification based on the current comic), but it is the logical conclusion to messing around with all that Reaper crap.

[Killjoy Cutter]

OK, I got a good laugh out of paragons being accused of having "trust issues". Thanks that that one, it's a long day already here.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I'm usually full paragon and 30 to 40 percent renegade. So I make some renegade decisions. But the base issue is defining paragons as much as the council issue in ME1. They are probably the most important decisions for ME3. So if you are 100% paragon and the base is your only renegade decision, you probably screwed up.

It's funny because I think both those choices (saving the council and destroying the base) are the dumbest, stupidest, most moronic choices you can make at that moment.

The council is dead in my playthrough because I focussed my forced on Sovereign. But the council us replaced with a new mixed-species council, since I was a Paragon (only when you're Renegade you get the option for a human-only council).

Generally, my major choices are:

ME1:
- Saved Feros
- Saved rachni queen
- Saved Wrex
- Sacrificed Council

ME2:
- Get SPECTRE reinstatement
- Keep genophage cure data
- Rewrite heretic geth
- Stop project Overlord
- Keep Collector base


And what makes you think I screwed up? What basis do you have for your argument? Again, it's YOU who screwed up (logically) because that Collector base was (at that moment) your only hope to find a solution against the reapers, and you just flushed that hope through the toilet because of your silly twisted morals.

Because of all paragon decisions saving he council and blowing up the base are most likely to pay off in ME3. And freeing the rachni and rewrite the geth are the most likely to bite you in the ass. Hence you are screwed.

Well we talk about it after ME3 is released, maybe we then agree on something, or not. Remains to be seen.

Sorry if I don't go into detail why I destroy the base but I have said it many times, in this thread and the other. Bottomline the base is not worth keeping. Cerberus is not worth my trust.

[Dave of Canada]

Luc0s wrote...

I'd hate it if Paragon = WIN and Renegade = FAIL.

Well, Bioware did classify the Renegade playthrough as "Fail" in the files.

[Andorfiend]

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

Yes, I could have. In fact I did, if you had bothered to read my post. However we are discussing TIM, who has already lost AT LEAST THREE science teams to indoctrination. Not a stellar record of properly managing a known risk, wouldn't you say?
[/quote]

That still doesn't justify destroying the Collector base for the reasons I already stated dozens of times over.

Also, do you honestly think the Alliance or Council would be better with reaper tech? You think they would know how to deal with it? Like it or not, but TIM probably knows best how to deal with reaper tech. After all, he knows more about reaper tech and indoctrination than anyone else in the galaxy. TIM knows even more about indoctrination and reaper tech than Shepard himself.

Check this link and go to point 8: http://www.newsarama...3-110707-1.html

I rest my case.[/quote]
Really? That's where you rest your case?
If I may quote your link:

[quote] Article says...
Whether you chose the Renegade or Paragon option in the final mission of Mass Effect 2, the Illusive Man recovers information about the experiments the Reapers performed on the colonists and he has an epiphany that could rival Anakin's thought process when he tries to strangle Padme in Episode III: "I just spent trillions of credits bringing Shepard back to life and assembling a team to stop the Collectors from abducting more human colonists for Reaper experiments. Now that she has done the impossible, I think I will just continue those experiments." (Yeah, Illusive Man, no way you are indoctrinated. This all makes perfect, logical sense. I'm sorry for doubting you. I'll go back and make that Renegade choice now.) For the greater good of the human race, of course... Oh, and revenge. [/quote]

If you think that props up your case then, possibly you have an underdeveloped sense of sarcasm?

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

Not torturing dozens of children to death and driving Jack crazy would have resulted in dozens more human biotics, and a more useful Jack. Would she have been as powerful? We have absolutely no way of knowing given the garbage science that went into making her. I'd give long odd that sending her to learn with an Asari would have produced a much more powerful and useful agent. We have no way of knowing however. We do know for a dead cold certainty that there would be dozens more human biotics in the galaxy without the Teltin program however. Is one powerful and crazy biotic who hates your guts and is a psycopathic killer better than dozens of weaker and loyal biotics? I'm going with "no."
[/quote]

I'm going with "yes".

Jack made going through the seeker swarm at the Collector base possible. Dozens of weaker biotics (who might not even be loyal) wouldn't.

Seriously, you really can't make an argument without pulling stuff out of your ****? Seriously, "dozens of weaker and loyal biotics", really? What makes you think these "dozens of weaker biotics" are loyal at all? Stop making crap up to support your already weak position.[/quote]

Why would normal humans who had not spent their childhoods being tortured not be loyal to humanity in general and continued life in particular? Exactly why is that nonsense? Or are you trying to claim they weren't killing children in large number at Teltin?

And any biotic can get you through the Seeker swarm. A Loyal Jack, or Samara, or Miranda get to survive the trip as a bonus. So Jack's power level is not unique, even amoung the handful of biotics on your tiny ship.


[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

The Rachni program got absolutely no results. It did lead to the death of every cerberus agent and scientist involved, the death of many Alliance marines, and could easily have resulted in an existential threat to humanity
and even the galaxy at large.
[/quote]

The rachni program was from a rogue cell that wasn't under the authority of TIM. Pay more attention to the lore next time before you blame stuff on TIM that isn't TIM's fault.[/quote]

Citation please.

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

The risk of producing indoctinating tech and distributing it galaxy wide is not a large threat? Justitify please.
[/quote]

Yes, you justify it please. Justify the part that I underlined. How did you came up with that bull? Because that doesn't make any sense. 

What in the world makes you think that the tech WE produce and distribute, will indoctrinate people? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, the original reaper tech itself might be indoctrinating, but the tech we build based on the reaper tech certainly doesnt![/quote]

I already explained, but I'll try to do it more slowly this time.

Indoctrination is bad.
Indoctrination is much worse when the Reapers are an active presence in the galaxy and can directly influence/control their indoctrinated agents rather than them defaulting to turning into husks.
The goal of keeping the Collector base is to gain new tech by researching it.
Indoctrination is a known risk of Reaper tech.
The ideal outcome of the Collector base is that the science team will extract useful tech, with the indoctrination risks removed,  which can be mass produced and distributed to help the war effort.
With the Reapers present to directly influence the science team, they can produce exactly the same results without removing the indoctrination tech.
Why would they do that? Because the Reapers told them to.
Why would the Reapers tell them to? They are not stupid, and the conversation with Vigil shows that their indoctrinated agents are some of their greatest weapons. Why would they not?
Do you understand? A release of trojan horse indoctrination tech is the most likely outcome of the Collector base research program if the team falls to indoctrination.
TIM has lost many science teams to indoctrination, including the dead reaper team. Given your own claim that he knows more about indoctrination than anyone else in the galaxy, how do you excuse that?

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

The Collector base is exactly equivalent to Sarens Krogan cloning facility. Does capturing the cloneing facility tell you how to kill an alredy existing Krogan horde? No. Blowing it up merely let's you stop a new horde from being made.
[/quote]

Yes, the Collector base is exactly like the Saren's Korgan facility. Does capturing the cloning facility tell you how Saren cloned his Krogan? YES! Could this info help in finding a cure for the genophage? YES!

You're short sighted. All you can think about is blowing up because you're scared. But I look beyond that. I see the potential of the Collector base. I see the potential of Saren's facility (to bad we didn't have the chance to keep it).
[/quote]

Look at your example again. "We could use Sarens facility to make more Krogans to make more Krogans!"
Sure. It might even be reasonable, given that Krogans are semi-functional members of galactic society.

Now extend your argument to the original topic of discussion. "We could use the Reaper making facility to make more Reapers." Sure. I guess. Why bother stopping the collectors if you agree with their goals?

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

In point of fact the Reapers have already lost.
[/quote]

*watches the Fall of Earth ME3 trailer* Yeah, it certainly looks like the reapers already lost. /sarcasm

[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

The current battle is just to save the people alive today, the future is already ours.
[/quote]

Ehhhh?  No it's not. If the reapers succeed in winning this war in ME3 (and they most likely will win it if we don't come up with a solid plan to counter them), then they'll fix the Citadel and the cycle will just continue the way it always did.

Seriously, I don't know what drugs you're on, but you're certainly delusional.[/quote]

If you're not going to follow the argument, why bother addressing it?

I didn't say the cycle was broken now, I said it has no chance of continuing past ths iteration. The whole thing is dependent on no organic civilizations surviving the galactic purge to bear warning for the next crop of organic civilizations. The Quarians have a mobile civilization. Take a look at the "We can't win" thread. All the arguments about why we can't beat the Reapers, based on the inconclusive nature of space combat without something to nail the defenders in place, also apply to why it's impossible to destroy the flotilla as long as they are smart enough to try and hide at least some of their ships. For that matter with two years of warning we should already have made some ark ships so humanity gets to survive too.

Once knowledge of the cycle survives a coming of the Reapers the survivors have 50,000 years to prepare for the next coming. They spend 50,000 years developing weapons to fight them with. They build a civilization not based around the relays and the Citadel. They fill the Citadel with 1000 tons of anti-matter and a card that says "Welcome back Reapers! Boom." They have 50,000 years to fortify and prepare, with all the resource of the galaxy at their disposal.

We I say "We've won." I mean organic life, not the Earth, or even humanity. I thought that was clear.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Because of all paragon decisions saving he council and blowing up the base are most likely to pay off in ME3. And freeing the rachni and rewrite the geth are the most likely to bite you in the ass. Hence you are screwed.

And on what do you base these assumptions? Do you have anything to back this up, or are these just empty speculations?

I think it's the other way around. I think the rachni will come to aid us (though I don't doubt some rachni will get huskified). I think useful tech will be salvaged from the Collector base.

And I don't see how sacrificing the Council will bite me in the ass. I didn't secure human dominance, I in fact replaced the old council with a new similar council (mixed species, like the previous council).

The rewritten geth are equal to the normal geth now. There is no difference anymore. That's the whole purpose of rewriting them. So I don't see how rewriting the geth can bite me in the ass, unless you assume the ENTIRE geth army will turn on us.

I think rewriting the geth will result in a couple of thousand extra geth at your disposal. Folks who destroyed the geth, will have a few thousand less geth at their disposal.

AlexXIV wrote...

Well we talk about it after ME3 is released, maybe we then agree on something, or not. Remains to be seen.

Yes, lets wait and see.

AlexXIV wrote...

Sorry if I don't go into detail why I destroy the base but I have said it many times, in this thread and the other. Bottomline the base is not worth keeping. Cerberus is not worth my trust.

Bottomline is, that, at the moment, the base is your only hope to find a counter-measure against the reapers. And you just blew it up.

Rachni have probably been indoctrinated before. And the Geth can be rewritten as you say. Not really the most reliable ally. Bluntly letting the Council die is failing your duty as Spectre. They are your superiours, you let them die with not much more than speculation why it was better. Because as saving the council shows, we can win and save it. You give the base to Cerberus. Don't think alot of people in the Alliance or among non-humans will appreciate that.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I'd hate it if Paragon = WIN and Renegade = FAIL.

Well, Bioware did classify the Renegade playthrough as "Fail" in the files.

Well, we can add that to the list of things that Bioware flip-flops between on "renegade".

1) Ruthlessly goal-oriented and remorseless
2) Collosal Spacedouche
3) Cerberus lapdog
4) Fail

We'll need to redo the percentages right now, but work has me busy today, so it will have to wait unless someone else wants to do it.  [/snark]

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Bottomline is, that, at the moment, the base is your only hope to find a counter-measure against the reapers.

It is?

[ODST 5723]

I never keep the base because I was never given a reason to trust TIM. At best, he came across to me as a guy with good intentions but sloppy, ruthless, inhumane methods and as someone willing to sacrifice what makes us human to acheive his goal of human dominance in the galaxy. A man quick to take credit for successes and even quicker to push the blame for failures on subordinates.

And that's the decision I've come to each time I've done it. Because in the heat of the moment, I don't feel that I can trust him or Cerberus with that base.

.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...
To win a war, you must understand your enemy and find it's weaknesses. How are you going to do this? How do you plan to gain an understanding of the reapers and how they work? How do you plan to gain knowledge on the possible weaknessess of the reapers?

I understand that Reaper tech is dangerous because it leads to indoctrination. That's how I understand my enemy. Obviously not everyone does.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

*snip*

Your entire post is all nice and stuff, but I'm going to keep this short. So excuse me for not adressing every single little detail in your post, I simply didn't see the need to do that, because I have 1 solid argument that counters every single argument you give.

Here it is:


Every smart person understands that studying your enemy is the only way if you wish to win the war. How do you want to win a war without studying your enemy? The Allied forces wouldn't have won WW2 if they didn't study the Axis forces, to give an example.

The Protheans knew this. They studied the Mass Relays and developed the Conduit. And after the reapers where gone, those protheans that were left studied how the reapers actually managed to invade the Milkyway, and developed a counter-measure.

Sure, studying reaper tech is dangerous, but is necessary. Without it, we don't stand a chance. The Protheans understood this, though it was already too late for them.

Even Kahlee Sanders, a Alliance engineer and hero, understands this. She realizes that Paul Grayson has reaper tech in his body. After Grayson died, she decided to study this reaper tech from Grayson's body to find out more about indoctrination.

But you, you still don't understand. Or do you refuse to understand?

You are arguing from a true general premise.  That doesn't always make on correct in every specific case, however. 

The Collector base is isolated and difficult if not impossible to defend.  There are good reasons to not trust Cerberus or believe that Cerberus can successfully handle the task of holding and studying the thing.  There's no time to secure and examine it before making the decision on whether to destroy it.