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[ODST 5723]

Luc0s wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

I never keep the base because I was never given a reason to trust TIM. At best, he came across to me as a guy with good intentions but sloppy, ruthless, inhumane methods and as someone willing to sacrifice what makes us human to acheive his goal of human dominance in the galaxy. A man quick to take credit for successes and even quicker to push the blame for failures on subordinates.

And that's the decision I've come to each time I've done it. Because in the heat of the moment, I don't feel that I can trust him or Cerberus with that base.

.

All I see when I read your comment is some emotional rambling. Each and every single argument you give is based on your emotions and not on facts, logic or rational thinking.

I mean really? "Willing to sacrifice what makes us human" Really? What is that suppose to mean? is that really one of your arguments to destroy the base? That's just... well... okay... whatever floats your boat I guess... 

Has it occured to you that if that were a real situation you wouldn't have a lot of time to make that decision and wouldn't be able to pause, hash out the details and then make the most reasonable and rational decision?  You're also not taking what Shepard actually says into consideration.  He said it, I agreed and paraphrased.

What you also neglect is that I'm not proporting to make a rational argument here.  Yet there is some rational thought behind it. 

At the end of MY playthrough, it's MY decisions that matter,  Not yours.  It['s MY logic.  MY experience.  MY Shepard.

I don't have to explain to you how technology left in Cerberus hands has led to needless deaths and near catastrophe, time and time again.  I don't need to point out that most of my Shepards are Sole Survivor with a deep distaste for Cerberus.  I don't need to point out that TIM is ultimately responsible for his organization so the atrocities that occurred to my unit, and to various colonies and science teams may have given me certain tools to defeat the Collectors, but were done so coldly and callously that they were morally objectionable to those Shepards.

It seems like you're not concerned at all with role playing and are solely focused on ramming your POV down MY throat.  My playthroughs have no impact on yours.  So why do you feel the need to lecture or preach to me about decisions I chose to make in a role-playing game as if your rational approach and outcomes are the only way?  It makes me wonder why anyone should even bother to share or play the game if we don't play it like you do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andorfiend wrote...
Why would normal humans who had not spent their childhoods being tortured not be loyal to humanity in general and continued life in particular? Exactly why is that nonsense? Or are you trying to claim they weren't killing children in large number at Teltin?

Why wouldn't ANY human be loyal to humanity and continued life in general?

I already explained, but I'll try to do it more slowly this time.

Indoctrination is bad.
Indoctrination is much worse when the Reapers are an active presence in the galaxy and can directly influence/control their indoctrinated agents rather than them defaulting to turning into husks.

Husks are not the same as indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated are turned into husks (by reapers convincing them to impale themselves). Get your facts straight.

The goal of keeping the Collector base is to gain new tech by researching it.
Indoctrination is a known risk of Reaper tech.
The ideal outcome of the Collector base is that the science team will extract useful tech, with the indoctrination risks removed,  which can be mass produced and distributed to help the war effort.
With the Reapers present to directly influence the science team, they can produce exactly the same results without removing the indoctrination tech.
Why would they do that? Because the Reapers told them to.
Why would the Reapers tell them to? They are not stupid, and the conversation with Vigil shows that their indoctrinated agents are some of their greatest weapons. Why would they not?
Do you understand? A release of trojan horse indoctrination tech is the most likely outcome of the Collector base research program if the team falls to indoctrination.
TIM has lost many science teams to indoctrination, including the dead reaper team. Given your own claim that he knows more about indoctrination than anyone else in the galaxy, how do you excuse that?

Because it is dangerous and no one found a counter...yet.
And despite all that you cannot simply do nothing and hope for the best. You cannot simply ignore it.
The more you study, the better you understand. TIM lost science teams, but each one brought something to the table.


Now, as to your claim that the most likely outcome is spreading of indoctrination tech. no. By that logic everything made from reaper tech would indoctrinate. Yet that's clearly not the case. IF it were, both Thanix and IFF and EDI would have indoctrinated Sheppard and crew.
It appears indoctrination devices are very specific things - integrated into the reapers or as seperate artifacts (lie object Rho)

Andorfiend wrote...
I didn't say the cycle was broken now, I said it has no chance of continuing past ths iteration.

Based on what exactly?

The whole thing is dependent on no organic civilizations surviving the galactic purge to bear warning for the next crop of organic civilizations. The Quarians have a mobile civilization. Take a look at the "We can't win" thread. All the arguments about why we can't beat the Reapers, based on the inconclusive nature of space combat without something to nail the defenders in place, also apply to why it's impossible to destroy the flotilla as long as they are smart enough to try and hide at least some of their ships. For that matter with two years of warning we should already have made some ark ships so humanity gets to survive too.

Forgetting something? Reaers have superior speed, mobility, endurace and FTL..and Sensors. They can stay in the galaxy for thousands of years  - millions if necessary - to make sure they root out everything.
We can't. Our ships can't survive for thousands of years in the void - you need reources. Mantainance.

Also, you can't just jump into FTL on the dime. Reaper jump in, open fire - bam! Several ships lost before they can even turn on their FTL. since reapers cna one-shot-kill and tank redicolous amounts of firepwoer, you can't do the same to them.
They can put indoctrination devices on every planet in the galaxy.

Once knowledge of the cycle survives a coming of the Reapers the survivors have 50,000 years to prepare for the next coming.

and yet you have no way of securing the knowledge survives..OR that it's taken seriously (see Council)

[ODST 5723]

jreezy wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

I never keep the base because I was never given a reason to trust TIM. At best, he came across to me as a guy with good intentions but sloppy, ruthless, inhumane methods and as someone willing to sacrifice what makes us human to acheive his goal of human dominance in the galaxy.
.

That seems like such an oxymoron. Anyway, my lack of trust towards TIM is also the reason why my Paragon MaleShep blew up the base. I would've liked if we had the option to keep it ourselves but since that is impossible I blew it up.

I would have liked that option as well, or to give it to the Alliance.  However, that also creates issues since the only route to it seems to be through the Terminus Systems.

As for it being an oxymoron, I disagree but don't feel the need to argue the point.  That line about sacrificing the soul of humanity that a Paragon Shepard makes is something that I agree with and would need to write a decent essay about to fully communicate.

[BellaStrega]

Luc0s wrote...

So you think you understand your enemy? Okay, then tell me: 

Do you understand how indoctrination works?
Do you understand how the reapers use indoctrination?
Do you understand Do you understand how to counter indoctrination?
Do you understand what to do against indoctrination once the reapers arrive?
Do you understand what to do AT ALL once the reapers arrive?

If any (or all) of the above answers are no: How are you planning on gaining an understanding of indoctrination and the reapers? And how are you planning to gain knowledge on how to counter indoctrination and the reapers?

Hmm.  Do you understand these things? Because from here it sounds a lot like "I give the base to The Illusive Man and then a ~miracle happens~  

Do you understand that characters in the game may have access to information the player does not? That it is not necessary for any of us to have a detailed plan on how to deal with indoctrination because there are characters in the game who have likely studied it and will provide that information.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arcian wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yeah, and those ships can survive thousands of years in space, wihtout planets.
And the reapers don't have far superior sensors and FTL.
And they don't hang around for thousands of years.

I am disinclined to believe that you are so stupid/ignorant as to actually need someone to explain that space is big.

Therefore I must conclude you are a troll. Enjoy your bridge.

Lotion isn't a troll. He's just a blind oaf who keeps insisting that he's a genius with perfect visual clarity.

Space is also empty. Which makes detecting ships in space exceptionally easy.

www.projectrho.com/rocket/spacewardetect.php

The Space Shuttle's much weaker main engines could be detected past
the orbit of Pluto. The Space Shuttle's manoeuvering thrusters
could be seen as far as the asteroid belt. And even a puny ship using
ion drive to thrust at a measly 1/1000 of a g could be spotted at one
astronomical unit.

This is with current off-the-shelf technology. Presumably future technology would be better.

But of course, for you to understand this you must posses at least some basic knowledge on the subject you're attamptign to discuss.
And you two have proven to possess none.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[Wulfram]

ODST 5723 wrote...

I would have liked that option as well, or to give it to the Alliance.  However, that also creates issues since the only route to it seems to be through the Terminus Systems.

That didn't stop them grabbing Ilos after ME1

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Well, considering how derpy a lot of the renegade choices are, it would be inconsistent for those choices not to backfire later on.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

So you think you understand your enemy? Okay, then tell me: 

Do you understand how indoctrination works?
Do you understand how the reapers use indoctrination?
Do you understand Do you understand how to counter indoctrination?
Do you understand what to do against indoctrination once the reapers arrive?
Do you understand what to do AT ALL once the reapers arrive?

If any (or all) of the above answers are no: How are you planning on gaining an understanding of indoctrination and the reapers? And how are you planning to gain knowledge on how to counter indoctrination and the reapers?

Hmm.  Do you understand these things? Because from here it sounds a lot like "I give the base to The Illusive Man and then a ~miracle happens~  

Do you understand that characters in the game may have access to information the player does not? That it is not necessary for any of us to have a detailed plan on how to deal with indoctrination because there are characters in the game who have likely studied it and will provide that information.

You seem to think:
do nothing, then ~ a miracle happens ~
See, us who keep the base try to bring that "mirace" about. You just hope one will come along.

Also, are you trying to argue we should make decisions based on informations we don't know?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Collector base is isolated and difficult if not impossible to defend.

To defend against what? The Normandy is the only ship that can go through the Omega 4 relay.

And if you're talking about defending against the reapers: That's not necessary. The reapers aren't here yet, and judging on how fast Shepard blew up the base in ME2, I say it's easy to blow up the base as soon as the reapers try to recapture it.

Better to keep the base and blow it up when it turns out to be dangerous, than blowing it up right away, potentially flushing an usefull asset  through the toilet.

Additional Collectors.  Unknown Reaper agents.  Etc, Etc, Etc.

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are good reasons to not trust Cerberus or believe that Cerberus can successfully handle the task of holding and studying the thing. 

Okay, again: How does your supersition weight up against the potential rewards?

Logically, without meta-gaming, you could say that:

Destroying base = your screwed because you know nothing about your enemy and you have no means of gaining intel on them.

Keeping base = you might learn something valuable about your enemy from the base, that could give you a better chance in the war. You might also risk getting your entire research team indoctrinated, but that's a risk we should take for the sake of the galaxy.

Why do some of you keep assuming that we're utterly and compltely ignorant about the reapers if we don't keep that base?  No one else has any information or has done any research? 

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There's no time to secure and examine it before making the decision on whether to destroy it.

Says who?

The impending overrun of the team by hundreds of Collectors and massive swarms of seekers? 

[BellaStrega]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You seem to think:
do nothing, then ~ a miracle happens ~
See, us who keep the base try to bring that "mirace" about. You just hope one will come along.

Oh, of course. Because as we've been over multiple times, it's simply not possible that this project will go horribly wrong like every other instance of dealing with a Reaper installation or vessel. No, this time, it's going to be done right and flawlessly and Cerberus will mass produce anti-Reaper weapons and stop the invasion cold and everyone will live happily ever after. That sounds like a pretty implausible ~miracle~   to me.

After reading this thread, I wouldn't trust you to save a nickel to buy bubble gum.

Also, are you trying to argue we should make decisions based on informations we don't know?

I am suggesting you do not have the information y'all are berating other players for not having access to.

Or is someone teaching an Indoctrination 101 class somewhere and I missed the announcement?

[ODST 5723]

Luc0s wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

It seems like you're not concerned at all with role playing and are solely focused on ramming your POV down MY throat.

Nope. You don't get it. I never opposed people who destroy the base for roleplaying reasons. I also have a "instable overly-emotional Shepard"-playthrough. He's also a sole-survivor who hates Cerberus. He's a Renegade, but he blew up the Collector base for the same reasons as your overly-emotional sole-survivor Shepard.

I don't oppose you. I only oppose people who claim that it's logical and rational to blow up the Collector base. It isn't.

So, I'm sorry if I have you the feeling that I opposed your roleplaying decisions. Being a sole-survivor and destroying the Collector base out of spite is a perfectly reasonable roleplay reason. Your Shepard is driven by emotions, not by logic, and I'm perfectly fine with that, because I also have a Shepard like that (but he's not my "canon playthrough").

The only people I oppose is those who dare to say that destroying the Collector base is the more rational thing to do than keeping the base, because it isn't.

If you were sorry, you wouldn't keep commenting about MY Shepard as if you know him.  He didn't destory it out of spite.  You don't know that Shepard and yet you've already written him off as emotion over reason.  You don't know what other decisions were made, you're basing it off a sliver of information and making broad generalizations.  My Shepard uses a mix of rational and irrational decision-making tools.  He trends towards paragon.
 
Again, you're trying to ram your logic and your rational approach down the throat of others and it isn't necessary.

[BellaStrega]

Luc0s wrote...

Nope, all previous times where also succesful. Sure, not flawless and not without casualties, but still, studying reaper tech has payed off greatly in the long run. You can't deny this.... oh wait, you can, because that's what you have been doing all the time. 

Actually, nope. Sovereign? HUGE failure. The dragon teeth? HUGE failure. The derelict reaper? The only thing that saved it from being a failure was Shepard and team coming in, and even so that featured a complete loss of all personnel involved. Rho? Exactly the same thing as the derelict reaper. Did good things come of those two? Certainly, despite project failure in each case.

Now, I don't know about you, but I generally consider losing personnel to be a bad thing. Treating people as expendable is generally bad for morale.

It's almost like you don't learn from the past.

[Dave of Canada]

BellaStrega wrote...

Oh, of course. Because as we've been over multiple times, it's simply not possible that this project will go horribly wrong like every other instance of dealing with a Reaper installation or vessel.

The caveman logic of not studying something dangerous isn't going to make it any less dangerous, studying Reaper tech has been responsible for stopping them in ME1 and ME2. If everybody was living with the "danger, don't do it!" mentality, we'd get nothing done.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Luc0s wrote...

Also, how you do wish to study the reapers if you keep blowing up their tech all the time?

Well, if you blow up the reapers and their stuff enough, eventually there will be no more reapers. That's my shep's line of reasoning, at least.

[Andorfiend]

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

*snip*

Your entire post is all nice and stuff, but I'm going to keep this short. So excuse me for not adressing every single little detail in your post, I simply didn't see the need to do that, because I have 1 solid argument that counters every single argument you give.

Here it is:


Every smart person understands that studying your enemy is the only way if you wish to win the war. How do you want to win a war without studying your enemy? The Allied forces wouldn't have won WW2 if they didn't study the Axis forces, to give an example.

The Protheans knew this. They studied the Mass Relays and developed the Conduit. And after the reapers where gone, those protheans that were left studied how the reapers actually managed to invade the Milkyway, and developed a counter-measure.

Sure, studying reaper tech is dangerous, but is necessary. Without it, we don't stand a chance. The Protheans understood this, though it was already too late for them.

Even Kahlee Sanders, a Alliance engineer and hero, understands this. She realizes that Paul Grayson has reaper tech in his body. After Grayson died, she decided to study this reaper tech from Grayson's body to find out more about indoctrination.

But you, you still don't understand. Or do you refuse to understand?

We're not discussing the general concept of researching the Reapers. We are discussing the specific choice of giving the Collector base to TIM or not. It's a binary choice.

I think we both agree that the third option of giving the base to the Citadel is actually the smart option but we're not presented with that choice.

While you're right that studying Reaper artifacts like the Mass Relays and Sovereigns guns had been useful, that's also a pretty good argument that the Collector base is not our only available source of Reaper tech. Frankly the galaxy is littered with the stuff.

Is the Collector base likely to have unique oportunities for data collection? Yes. Probably highly valuable ones.

The trouble is TIM. TIM screws things up by the numbers. The vast majority of Cerberus research project we have information about ended with dismal failure. Often by indoctrination. I've presented my case for why that's particularly dangerous in this instance.

Worse is that TIM, even if by some miracle his program is successful, is entirely likely to do something truely stupid with it. For example by spending trillions of credits bringing one man back from the dead because he's the one man who could unite the disparate races of the galaxy then discrediting him by publicizing the fact that he's working with terrorists and then sending him off to be killed fighting a minor distraction from the real threat. The fact that this sort of works out is pure luck/ or bad writing. Far more likely than a single convenient space station would have been a fully developed multi-planet system with trillions of Collectors and a fleet of ships. What the hell were the dirty dozen supposed to do then?

TIM is a paranoid idiot. He tried to directly control everything he touches, usually by denying vital information to the people who need it. His track record shows that even if he found something, he would never do the sensible thing and distribute it to the Alliance and our allies, he'd keep it for Cerberus. And Cerberus is what, a few thousand humans? With a pile of money? Even if he learned how to make freaking Green Lantern rings that made every soul in Cerberus a match for a Reaper, it still wouldn't be enough as there are more Reapers than Cerberus agents.

If the Arc Projector (held up as a Cerberus triumph) is actually meaningfull in the fight against the Reapers (and I fail to see how any hand weapon could be) then he shouldn't have given one to Shepard, he should have posted schematics on the extranet and given them away by the thousands. But that's not how he thinks. And that's why I think the odds of TIM controling the base producing something genuinely helpful inthe fight against the Reapers is much, much smaller than the odds of his control of the base coming back to bite me in the ass.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You seem to think:
do nothing, then ~ a miracle happens ~
See, us who keep the base try to bring that "mirace" about. You just hope one will come along.

Oh, of course. Because as we've been over multiple times, it's simply not possible that this project will go horribly wrong like every other instance of dealing with a Reaper installation or vessel. No, this time, it's going to be done right and flawlessly and Cerberus will mass produce anti-Reaper weapons and stop the invasion cold and everyone will live happily ever after. That sounds like a pretty implausible ~miracle~   to me.

After reading this thread, I wouldn't trust you to save a nickel to buy bubble gum.

Every other instance?
Like what? Every time we reserched reaper tech is proved a cruical advantage. Conduit, keepers, EDI, Thanix, IFF. They saved our galactic bacon.

I also never said that it couldn't go wrong, so quit assmbling your strawmen - you're just ending imbarrasing yourself.
what I'm telling you that if hte bse fails - at least I tried. And I'm not much worse off then I was at begining.

I am suggesting you do not have the information y'all are berating other players for not having access to.

Or is someone teaching an Indoctrination 101 class somewhere and I missed the announcement?

Like what? your'e the one saying that the only outcome is everyone indoctrinated. Do you know something we don't?

I'm going form what's in the game. I dont' know where you get your facts from. Fantasy land apparently.


And I see you (again) avoided responding to the whole reaper supremacy thing. Ya know, just becaue you ignore the gaping black hole in your whole line of reasoning, it won't go away.
You asked for proof of my rebuttal, I provided it...you continue as it nothing has happeed.

I guess you need a few days to try and formulate some kind of shaky reply....

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2011 - 05:19 .