1127 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Why do some of you keep assuming that we're utterly and compltely ignorant about the reapers if we don't keep that base?  No one else has any information or has done any research? 

Does Shepard know anyone who has done any research? Does Shepard know anything about the reapers? Does Shepard have a friend or collegue that knows anything about the reapers?

NO!

So, from Shepard's point of view: Is it sensible to blow up the (as far as Shepard is concerne) only possible lead on the reapers?

NO!

Also, how you do wish to study the reapers if you keep blowing up their tech all the time?

Not all their tech, just all their tech that's going to indoctrinate anyone near it, can't be secured, and would be turned over to an organization with a track record of bumbling their projects and getting their researchers killed, indoctrinated, or otherwise screwed. 

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Says who?

The impending overrun of the team by hundreds of Collectors and massive swarms of seekers? 

The Collectors are dead. All of them. That's what the altered bomb was for. The altered bomb made sure all life on the Collector base is destroyed, but the tech is kept fully in tact.

Unless there's a shielded area, or TIM is lying (but TIM *never* lies to Shep, right?), or... and it's a decision that has to be made RIGHT THEN, because the Collectors and Seekers ARE about to overwhelm both teams, right up until the moment the both teams have fully withdrawn and the base is either blown or rad-pulsed. 

I see no reason why Shep should trust TIM, given all the times TIM lies to Shep. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Not all their tech, just all their tech that's going to indoctrinate anyone near it, can't be secured, and would be turned over to an organization with a track record of bumbling their projects and getting their researchers killed, indoctrinated, or otherwise screwed.

How do you know which tech indoctrinates and which doesn't?
Can't be secured? The base can be secured (pulse killes all collectors)

Also, cerberuses track record is no worse than anyone else.

Unless there's a shielded area, or TIM is lying (but TIM *never* lies to Shep, right?), or... and it's a decision that has to be made RIGHT THEN, because the Collectors and Seekers ARE about to overwhelm both teams, right up until the moment the both teams have fully withdrawn and the base is either blown or rad-pulsed. 

I see no reason why Shep should trust TIM, given all the times TIM lies to Shep. 

Not telling you everthing is not the same as lying. Sheppard is a soldier. He should be used to be informed on a need-to-know basis.

And up untill that point TIM has been consistenly working to thwart the reapers.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2011 - 06:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andorfiend wrote...

I think we both agree that the third option of giving the base to the Citadel is actually the smart option but we're not presented with that choice. 

So giving a super-dangerous base that indoctrinates everyone to an organization that is just as shady and incompetent, but has far, far more resource and can thus be far, far more dangerous if it abuses the tech is better?

Interesting.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
To win a war, you must understand your enemy and find it's weaknesses. How are you going to do this? How do you plan to gain an understanding of the reapers and how they work? How do you plan to gain knowledge on the possible weaknessess of the reapers?

I understand that Reaper tech is dangerous because it leads to indoctrination. That's how I understand my enemy. Obviously not everyone does.

LOL! Yes, and the reapers are going to tear us a new one as soon as they arrive. That's how I understand my enemy. LMAO! 

Really, you can't be serious, can you? Okay sure, maybe you are serious. I'll play ball.


So you think you understand your enemy? Okay, then tell me: 

Do you understand how indoctrination works?
Do you understand how the reapers use indoctrination?
Do you understand Do you understand how to counter indoctrination?
Do you understand what to do against indoctrination once the reapers arrive?
Do you understand what to do AT ALL once the reapers arrive?

If any (or all) of the above answers are no: How are you planning on gaining an understanding of indoctrination and the reapers? And how are you planning to gain knowledge on how to counter indoctrination and the reapers?

Not by getting myself indoctrinated.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

I think we both agree that the third option of giving the base to the Citadel is actually the smart option but we're not presented with that choice. 

So giving a super-dangerous base that indoctrinates everyone to an organization that is just as shady and incompetent, but has far, far more resource and can thus be far, far more dangerous if it abuses the tech is better?

Interesting.

I'm not entirely sure anyone can match Cerberus for shadiness and incompetence. It's kind of their defining feature as an organization.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Actually, nope. Sovereign? HUGE failure. The dragon teeth? HUGE failure. The derelict reaper? The only thing that saved it from being a failure was Shepard and team coming in, and even so that featured a complete loss of all personnel involved. Rho? Exactly the same thing as the derelict reaper. Did good things come of those two? Certainly, despite project failure in each case.

Now, I don't know about you, but I generally consider losing personnel to be a bad thing. Treating people as expendable is generally bad for morale.

It's almost like you don't learn from the past.

Actually:

Studying Sovereign -> created Thanix Cannon -> helped in succesfully destroying the Collectors.
Result: SUCCES!

Studying deleric reaper -> found reaper IFF -> made going past the Omega 4 relay possible.
Result: SUCCES!

Studying object Rho -> found out about early reaper arrival -> gave Shepard the chance to stop the arrival.
Result: SUCCES!


But wait, there is more:

Studying reaper tech by TIM -> created tech that allowed to ressurect people -> start of Project Lazarus, which revived Shepard.
Result: SUCCES!

Studying reaper tech from Grayson's body by Kahlee Sanders -> gave her a better understanding of indoctrination.
Result: SUCCES!

There is even more, but I have to go now. I'll list the others later.

And never mind the cost, in every case? 

The derelict reaper -- lost the entire research team, only succeeded in recovering the IFF because of Shepard's intervention, Shepard and team almost die, IFF almost costs the Normandy, costs some portion of the crew on all playthroughs.

Object Rho -- lost the entire research team and security force, only succeeded because of Shepard's intervention, Shepard almost killed again, delays and interference by indoctrinated personel lead to the deaths of 300000 Batarians.

Grayson study -- there's a whole book about how that went off the reservation...


And again, as for Lazarus, beyond pure speculation, what indication do we have that Lazarus had anything to do with "reaper tech"? 

[Destroy Raiden_]

I agree OP using the entire wheel on a case by case bases is the best solution Rens are jerks when they shouldn't be but display tactical advantages like blowing up that crate over the merchs. But they don't need to take a jerk approach to everything it should for instance make the Turians not want to work with them because they see rens as usurping athority and being disrespectful. But in other ways they get along great with Aria because of their attitude.

Paras as we've seen in hostage negotiations ME should be better in instance because they have patience, they try to give understanding, and nudge people to see it their way not beat their way over their heads like a ren would amped up hostage takers should have a higher change of letting their hostages go, Paras would also gain the Turians trust because they know when to show respect and when to disagree the Turians would see them as respectful however a para would be at odds with Aria most of the time because their ways contradict Aria's hard line ren ways.

Neutral sheps can walk the line on cases not going to far to the space giving paras nor going to far to the bashing your brains in rens. Some people would respond to this method and it would ease them into cooperation for either para or ren pathways later in the conversation or later in meeting with them if you must meet them several times.

Players responding appropriately to each situational occurrence using the social cues, the level of intensity, and so forth should be rewarded more. Talitha is a good example of this she was scared, amped, and needed to be calmed down before you when any further with her, rens killed her because they were harsh and not responding to the situation appropriately, paras were soft but too soft and ran out of options, you needed to use neutral, para, and a bit of ren to get her to live and obtain the best outcome for her. They should have more realistic conversations like this. Negotiations don't require one to be all para or ren you need all three or at least two para + neutral, ren + neutral to successfully persuade someone.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 21 décembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And never mind the cost, in every case? 

Cost would've been greater otherwise.

Without the Derelict Reaper, the Collectors couldn't have been stopped.
Without the Object Rho team, the Reapers would be harvesting the galaxy by now.
Grayson's experiment didn't screw up due to Reaper tech, it screwed up due to Anderson and the Turians.

[Someone With Mass]

You know, you could just ask Legion about most of these technical things.

Also, there's no guarantee that the base holds any Reaper schematics (why would a super intelligent machine store such vital information on a external computer?) and the baby Reaper, while being merely the core, blew the hell up.

And again, because I apparently can't stress it enough, there's no guarantee that TIM will share the potential knowledge, since he's usually just in for himself. He seems perfectly fine with letting humans die to achieve his goal too, so there's little reason to depend on the possibility that he might have a change of heart all of the sudden.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Not all their tech, just all their tech that's going to indoctrinate anyone near it, can't be secured, and would be turned over to an organization with a track record of bumbling their projects and getting their researchers killed, indoctrinated, or otherwise screwed.

How do you know which tech indoctrinates and which doesn't?
Can't be secured? The base can be secured (pulse killes all collectors)

Also, cerberuses track record is no worse than anyone else.

Secured?  It's on the far end of the Omega-4 relay, in an area of the galaxy otherwise entirely inaccessible.  More collectors could arrive at any moment, or another reaper that we don't know about, or some other reaper servant, or some threat in the base itself that the radiation pulse doesn't destroy, or... 

As for Cerberus having no worse a track record than anyone else... well, we've been over their long, long, long list of failures and screw-ups.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Unless there's a shielded area, or TIM is lying (but TIM *never* lies to Shep, right?), or... and it's a decision that has to be made RIGHT THEN, because the Collectors and Seekers ARE about to overwhelm both teams, right up until the moment the both teams have fully withdrawn and the base is either blown or rad-pulsed. 

I see no reason why Shep should trust TIM, given all the times TIM lies to Shep. 

Not telling you everthing is not the same as lying. Sheppard is a soldier. He should be used to be informed on a need-to-know basis.

And up untill that point TIM has been consistenly working to thwart the reapers.

Lying by omission is still lying. 

TIM is not Shepard's commanding officer in a military organization.  TIM and Shepard are working together on a common goal, and the "need to know" bullcrap is just TIM lying by omission. 

[goofyomnivore]

It seems like a small risk(empowered Ceberus) versus a potentially large gain (next generation technology) when the scope is galactic annihilation.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Someone With Mass wrote...

You know, you could just ask Legion about most of these technical things.

Also, there's no guarantee that the base holds any Reaper schematics (why would a super intelligent machine store such vital information on a external computer?) and the baby Reaper, while being merely the core, blew the hell up.

And again, because I apparently can't stress it enough, there's no guarantee that TIM will share the potential knowledge, since he's usually just in for himself. He seems perfectly fine with letting humans die to achieve his goal too, so there's little reason to depend on the possibility that he might have a change of heart all of the sudden.\\

Indeed.  TIM considers all casualties acceptable as long as he gets what he wants, flippantly risks all lives but his own, and no longer understands the difference between the human species / civization, the Cerberus organization, and himself.  ("Cerberus is humanity!  Derp!")

[AlexXIV]

strive wrote...

It seems like a small risk(empowered Ceberus) versus a potentially large gain (next generation technology) when the scope is galactic annihilation.

That's what Cerberus wants to make us believe. Obviously successful in some cases.

[Seboist]

strive wrote...

It seems like a small risk(empowered Ceberus) versus a potentially large gain (next generation technology) when the scope is galactic annihilation.

This illustration best describes the significance of the CB decision(and all others).

[AlexXIV]

Seboist wrote...

strive wrote...

It seems like a small risk(empowered Ceberus) versus a potentially large gain (next generation technology) when the scope is galactic annihilation.

This illustration best describes the significance of the CB decision(and all others).

lol'd

[Andorfiend]

Luc0s wrote...

[While most of Cerberus' projects didn't go without collateral damage, they all did produce positive and useful results.

I disagree. Not a single one of the project we found in ME 1 produced a damn thing. Even the absurdly stupid Thresher Maw tests which tortured Cpl. Toombs for years. Did we get an antidote to Thresher Maw venom? Siesmic sensors capable of warning us about the damn things? An ammo mods designed to peirce their hide, or a toxin that affected them?

Nope. Not a blessed thing after years of research and dozens of lives. A handful of rednecks with an RC car and a stick of dynamite got better results in 10 minutes in the Tremors movies.

And those projects led directly to the destruction of several colonies, and could have led to the total destruction of humanity by letting feral Rachni loose in the shipping lanes.

Likewise the research project on the Dead Reaper didn't accomplish a damn thing, besides give you some Husks to fight when you went aboard to get Iff for yourself. At most they saved you a few minutes, at the expense of dozens of lives.

Teltin killed dozens of human biotics, an extremely rare resource and may or may not (there is no way to know) have made Jack stronger biotically at the cost of turning her into an authority shy pychopathic killer with a vengence complex against the morons who wanted to turn her into a super-agent. Given that there is nothing a biotic can do that is not technologically reproducable the whole concept was stupid. They'd have been better off trying to design biotic mechs.

Hell, Cerberus procedures are so sloppy they completely missed a Mech virus that their factory then spread across the galaxy resulting in the loss of a factory, space station, and cargo ship that we know of, and presumably billions of dollars in lost revenue and clean up costs. I'd lay odds it was an STG project theat created the virus, but the fact remains that they fell for it.

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Worse is that TIM, even if by some miracle his program is successful, is entirely likely to do something truely stupid with it. For example by spending trillions of credits bringing one man back from the dead because he's the one man who could unite the disparate races of the galaxy then discrediting him by publicizing the fact that he's working with terrorists and then sending him off to be killed fighting a minor distraction from the real threat. The fact that this sort of works out is pure luck/ or bad writing. Far more likely than a single convenient space station would have been a fully developed multi-planet system with trillions of Collectors and a fleet of ships. What the hell were the dirty dozen supposed to do then?

I think this is just horrible writing on BioWare's part. TIM could have been such an amazingly cool villian (I'm fully aware TIM is - or will become - a villian, even though I kept the base), instead it looks like BioWare is transforming TIM into a mustache-twirling cliché.

Still, I think TIM is pretty awesome in ME2 and even cooler in the ME books.

TIM is a James Bond supervillain. Miranda is a Bond girl. *shrug* No matter how cool he may be, I don't want to give the doomsday weapon to Dr. Evil. Why don't we just strap a laser to Mr Bigglesworths head and be done with it?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Andorfiend wrote...

Hell, Cerberus procedures are so sloppy they completely missed a Mech virus that their factory then spread across the galaxy resulting in the loss of a factory, space station, and cargo ship that we know of, and presumably billions of dollars in lost revenue and clean up costs. I'd lay odds it was an STG project theat created the virus, but the fact remains that they fell for it.

Wait, was that tied to Cerberus somehow?

[Dave of Canada]

It wasn't.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It wasn't.

I certainly don't recall any indication. 

I'd like to restrict criticism of Cerberus to all the things they're actually linked to. 

[Bad King]

That was Hahne-Kedar

[goofyomnivore]

That's what Cerberus wants to make us believe. Obviously successful in some cases.

No that is what common sense will lead you to believe. Cerberus isn't in the same zipcode of badassery of the Reapers. If Ceberus goes all muahahahahha on us they're a minimal threat. Hell I'd argue the Krogan going berserk after curing the genophage is more of a risk.

Modifié par strive, 21 décembre 2011 - 07:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

strive wrote...

It seems like a small risk(empowered Ceberus) versus a potentially large gain (next generation technology) when the scope is galactic annihilation.

That's what Cerberus wants to make us believe. Obviously successful in some cases.

It's easy to belive in reality.

Andorfiend wrote...
I
disagree. Not a single one of the project we found in ME 1 produced a
damn thing.

That you know of.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

TIM is a James Bond supervillain. Miranda is a Bond girl. *shrug* No
matter how cool he may be, I don't want to give the doomsday weapon to
Dr. Evil. Why don't we just strap a laser to Mr Bigglesworths head and
be done with it?

ME is a cheesy Bond flick?
Exaplains all the crappy writing.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2011 - 07:50 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

However, the burden of proof typically lies on those making the positive claim.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not telling you everthing is not the same as lying. Sheppard is a soldier. He should be used to be informed on a need-to-know basis.

And up untill that point TIM has been consistenly working to thwart the reapers.

Lying by omission is still lying. 

TIM is not Shepard's commanding officer in a military organization.  TIM and Shepard are working together on a common goal, and the "need to know" bullcrap is just TIM lying by omission. 

Need-to-know is need-to-know.
And Sheppard doesn't need to know.
And Sheppard does take mission from TIM, so while it may not be military, it still applies. Especially if we're talking about suspicions, and not proven facts. then Shep needs to know even less.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not telling you everthing is not the same as lying. Sheppard is a soldier. He should be used to be informed on a need-to-know basis.

And up untill that point TIM has been consistenly working to thwart the reapers.

Lying by omission is still lying. 

TIM is not Shepard's commanding officer in a military organization.  TIM and Shepard are working together on a common goal, and the "need to know" bullcrap is just TIM lying by omission. 

Need-to-know is need-to-know.
And Sheppard doesn't need to know.
And Sheppard does take mission from TIM, so while it may not be military, it still applies. Especially if we're talking about suspicions, and not proven facts. then Shep needs to know even less.

Lies of omission it is, then.