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[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[/quote]

Games have always been failsave. There have always been walkthroughs, savegames, etc. If you want a challenge of choices I suggest real life really. That's not meant to be some sort of insult. I mean it. There is no game you can't beat in some optimized fashion. Never was, never will be.[/quote]

So?
How's that different from failing in combat? Or using a wrong spell on an enemy?
You reload and try again.

What is so different here?
You die in combat, you re-load and change your tactics.
Your choice ends up biting you in the ass, you re-load and change it. IF you want. Becaue with choices, consequences are rarely game-over affairs, while failing in comabt always is.

So please, enlighten me whats the big difference and why it would be bad..[/quote]
[/quote]





[quote][quote]
[quote]
Also, about TIM. Not going to happen. Shepard will save the galaxy without TIM, or not at all.[/quote]

Why not?
Do you hate the man so much you're rather not save the galaxy than accept his aid?

[/quote]

About TIM, I don't hate the man as much as what he stands for. Human superiority. Actually I partly blame Bioware for their human-superiority writing. Humans just reached the level of tech other races had for 1000 years and they manage to surpass everyone. And up to ME2 with next to no consequences. I don't like this humans patting each other on the shoulder thing just to feel good. We are humans, Bioware are humans, humans are the best, I get it. Though I don't need that in a sci-fi game tbh. I can be human any day, I don't need a game to play a human character and the writers pat me on the shoulder how proud I can be of being human. I realize that some people like that but for me personally it feels like an insult to my intelligence and to my self confidence. I don't need to be smarter or stronger or better than everyone to feel self confident.[/quote]

I think you're confising TIM with someone else.
Being Pro-Human isnt' the same as thinking humans are superior to eveyone. Pro-human means putting humantiy first. Thinking of it's interests and what is good for humanity.

Most, if not all humans are pro-human. Most turians are pro-turian. Most asari are pro-asari. That's just normal and sensible.

And maybe you hate so much being human that you want to deride them. And ironicly, why dont' you feel it insulting to your intelligence and self-confidence that games pump your ego?
Does it matter if your human or not, when you're even more  told how great and amazing you are, and how you can do no wrong (as there isn't a wrong choice anyway). Sheppard is space-jesus basicly.
Taht right there is ego-stroking o na grand scale.



[quote]
As for choices. There is no problem with hard choices, I actually appreciate them. I just think people are fooling themselves if they say that it is a challenge. I don't remember one RPG when it was a challenge to pick the right choices. Choices often don't even make enough sense to be the right or wrong one, so I am not going into deep thought processes to try to make sense.[/quote]

Pft..Like therei s muhc challange in comabt these days anyway. And if there is, why should ONLY comabt be challenging?
And if you do not want to think abotu your choices, then that's your problem.


[quote]
So yeah, Bioware should make choices harder, but it won't make a difference. After 2nd, 3rd playthrough everyone knows which button to press to get the desired result.[/quote]

It's called LOAD GAME.
So no different than combat.


[quote]
That's why I think thinking too much about games and logic of the plot is mostly a waste of time. I know people see it as a sort of hobby to rip apart games and plots and game mechanics. But in the end it is only a game, and not supposed to be perfect. It is supposed to waste some time and have fun. And thinking too much about things just ruins the fun. Something I learned here because, honestly, participating in discussions here in the BSN almost always results in me being disappointed about stuff that I enjoyed sooner. Ignorance is bliss.[/quote]

Then be ignorant and be happy.
But some of us don't want to be ignorant. Forgive me for having higher standards.

[BellaStrega]

Luc0s wrote...

Yes I edited my post because I thought you were Killjoy, since you and Killjoy have the same avatar. Didn't realize it was you Alex. I had no quarrel with you, Alex. Well, not until your last post that is. You probably understand I'll have to make your life a living hell now, since you insulted the holy Witcher 2. 

Those are indeed fighting words. If we agree on nothing else, can we at least agree on this? :innocent:

[Andorfiend]

Luc0s wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Equal consequences? What are those? No matter what happens in the end, some people will be upset and feel like they've been "shafted" if their desired consequences for their actions don't line up *exactly* where they think they should.

There should be a suitable victory/defeat for both sides. If any pure renegade expects a wonderful happy ending with rainbows and butterflies after callously slaughtering innocents, using other races as meatshields, and being an ass in general at every opportunity... well... please give a good reason why you'd expect that. The ending where Volus are dancing around a reaper corpse like Ewoks is something only paragons should get.

I disagree. I think both Paragon and Renegade should get a "medium ending". To get the "best ending", you'd have to mix up Paragon and Renegade. That would be awesome (mainly because I play that way).


I'd say keeping around resources while eleminating threats should lead to a good ending, while throwing away resources and letting potential threats go free should lead to a worse ending.

The trouble is that while in ME 1, you could spend points on social skills, ME 2 instituted an action only Paragon/Renegade system which blocked you from being able to achive much unless you went exclusively puppies-and-sugercookies or full-on-douchebag. Thereby clearly discouraging the (sensible) mixed behavior.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

strive wrote...

Not in Mass Effect 2. Maybe in the leak? I don't recall honestly. However EDI is a good example of what Reaper tech can do, and she was based off scraps. Imagine the potential of intact parts or a whole base.

Then again, being based on scraps also greatly reduces the risk of the entire research team going cyberzombie...

No, no it doesn't.

You know, I was trying to give Cerberus credit for the EDI project there, since by all evidence they managed to create the most advanced single AI ever --and not get anyone killed, or indoctrinated, or driven mad in the process. For once, at least.

Combine that with the Thanix cannon project, and it makes it look like, on the very small scale stuff, people aren't indoctrinated by every little piece of Reaper.

Of course, if there's something in the leak that reveals that one or both research teams ended up husky or mindscrambled, then that changes.

The problem is that, at the collector base, you're not dealing with small, shattered bits in a controlled environment.  

[goofyomnivore]

Why would the Collector Base have indoctrinating tech? They control the Collectors synthetically and never anticipated organics being there on their own terms.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I've posted until my fingers are numb as to what makes TIM anything but a hero, and what makes Cerberus anything but trustworthy, and (unsurprisingly) you show up and post some variation on the same tired old Cerbo-militant line about anyone daring to criticize Cerberus being "an illogical, ignorant, naive, idealistic idiot with no argument". 

Too bad your arguments are all as solid as wet paper..

And that's always the stock response from a set of you.  Accuse Cerberus detractor of having no arguments and being "naive and emotional".  Arguments re-presented or pointed out, you move to blowing off the arguments as "weak and stupid".  Arguments spelled out in lengthy and painful detail, you move to saying "that one doesn't count" and "you can't prove that one was Cerberus" and "the end always justify the means" and "TIM is a hottie".

[Killjoy Cutter]

strive wrote...

Why would the Collector Base have indoctrinating tech? They control the Collectors synthetically and never anticipated organics being there on their own terms.

Why would the inside of a dead Reaper indoctrinate? 

Why would they leave indoctrinating objects randomly lying around the galaxy to be discovered during their long slumbers? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Also, about TIM. Not going to happen. Shepard will save the galaxy without TIM, or not at all.

Why not?
Do you hate the man so much you're rather not save the galaxy than accept his aid?

The cost of working with TIM is too high.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

About TIM, I don't hate the man as much as what he stands for. Human superiority. Actually I partly blame Bioware for their human-superiority writing. Humans just reached the level of tech other races had for 1000 years and they manage to surpass everyone. And up to ME2 with next to no consequences. I don't like this humans patting each other on the shoulder thing just to feel good. We are humans, Bioware are humans, humans are the best, I get it. Though I don't need that in a sci-fi game tbh. I can be human any day, I don't need a game to play a human character and the writers pat me on the shoulder how proud I can be of being human. I realize that some people like that but for me personally it feels like an insult to my intelligence and to my self confidence. I don't need to be smarter or stronger or better than everyone to feel self confident.

I think you're confising TIM with someone else.
Being Pro-Human isnt' the same as thinking humans are superior to eveyone. Pro-human means putting humantiy first. Thinking of it's interests and what is good for humanity.

Most, if not all humans are pro-human. Most turians are pro-turian. Most asari are pro-asari. That's just normal and sensible.

TIM isn't just pro-human, he repeatedly goes on about human dominance. 

[goofyomnivore]

Why would the inside of a dead Reaper indoctrinate?

Because it is a fully grown Reaper? And it is intended to  indoctrinate?

Why would they leave indoctrinating objects randomly lying around the galaxy to be discovered during their long slumbers?

Objects? Clarify? Are you talking about Object Rho? Leviathan of Dis? That sphere you put in your captain's quarters? Sovereign?


Why don't the Mass Relays indoctrinate? Why doesn't the Citadel indoctrinate? Because it isn't needed just like the Collector Base.

Modifié par strive, 22 décembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

However, the burden of proof typically lies on those making the positive claim.

It lies on those making the claim - period. Doesn't matter if the claim is negative or positive.

The negative claim -- that something doesn't exist -- would have an impossible burden of proof in some cases, and as a standard, placing the burden of proof on the proposition that a particular thing does not exist would imply the assumption that everything imaginable exists until proven otherwise. 

Example -- can you prove that there's not an invisible, massless space monster orbiting Mars? 

It's far more reasonable and practical for the burden of proof to at least generally lie with those who would claim that something DOES exist.

[Killjoy Cutter]

strive wrote...

Why would the inside of a dead Reaper indoctrinate?

Because it is a fully grown Reaper? And it is intended to  indoctrinate?

Why would they leave indoctrinating objects randomly lying around the galaxy to be discovered during their long slumbers?

Objects? Clarify? Are you talking about Object Rho? Leviathan of Dis? That sphere you put in your captain's quarters? Sovereign?


Why don't the Mass Relays indoctrinate? Why doesn't the Citadel indoctrinate? Because it isn't needed just like the Collector Base.

Object Rho, the object found in the mining colony, the object that TIM was exposed to, etc. 

How many lives would you bet on the Collector base having no indoctrinating devices, no backup defenses, no hidden areas that would be shielded from something like a "timed radiation pulse", no etc.

[Andorfiend]

strive wrote...

Why would the inside of a dead Reaper indoctrinate?

Because it is a fully grown Reaper? And it is intended to  indoctrinate?

Why would they leave indoctrinating objects randomly lying around the galaxy to be discovered during their long slumbers?

Objects? Clarify? Are you talking about Object Rho? Leviathan of Dis? Sovereign?


Why don't the Mass Relays indoctrinate? Why doesn't the Citadel indoctrinate? Because it is counter productive or not needed, just like the Collector Base.

Machine Cultists. In ME 1 you find a research team that was indoctrinated and husked by random artifacts they dug up. If you have Tali with you she tells you she's heard of this, they're called machine cultists and it happens from time to time.

Ergo, the galaxy is littered with bits of indoctrination tech.

And while EDI and the Thanix cannon are held up as triumphs of successful research into reaper tech, we actually have no idea if the science teams made it out ok.

The Mass Relays and the Citadel do not indoctrinate, it is true. OTOH they wouldn't serve well as traps if they cyber-zombied everyone who got near them, so all that shows is the Reapers can choose to build  a gadget that does not indoctrinate, if they choose to. We actually have no signs that a Reaper itself can choose not to indoctrinate however. ME 1 gave several hints that the process was inevitable.

[goofyomnivore]

Object Rho is explained it is a beacon. It sounds logical to give it a defensive mechanism in case some pesky organic wants to mess with it.

The object in the mining colony? Oh yeah that thing Shepard wisely puts in the captain's quarters. I don't know much about TIM's ordeal I can't comment.

How many lives would you bet on the Collector base having no indoctrinating devices

Why do they need it? Do they just do it for the "lulz"?

They have Seeker Swarms, synthetically controlled genetically engineered soldiers, defending their own turf where no organic has ever set foot in. Heck organics can't even get there without the proper code from a Reaper/Collector Ship

Machine Cultists is that the one with Dragon's Teeth? The you know device that is designed to make husks. Why it is there no clue, but it is intended to do that. It isn't a random object laying on the ground that turns someone into a zombie as a side effect.

Modifié par strive, 22 décembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[goofyomnivore]

I'm not saying it is impossible the Collector Base wouldn't have indoctrination. It just doesn't seem necessary or probable they would have it as a defense. There is probably Dragon's Teeth inside it somewhere from the evidence of encountering husks, but I doubt that is capable of indoctrinating a whole base even then you could just remove them with Mechs. Or hell research the whole base with mechs and bring back parts of interest like weapons or data on how they program the swarms into a lab.

Modifié par strive, 22 décembre 2011 - 03:53 .

[AnsinJung]

Andorfiend wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Equal consequences? What are those? No matter what happens in the end, some people will be upset and feel like they've been "shafted" if their desired consequences for their actions don't line up *exactly* where they think they should.

There should be a suitable victory/defeat for both sides. If any pure renegade expects a wonderful happy ending with rainbows and butterflies after callously slaughtering innocents, using other races as meatshields, and being an ass in general at every opportunity... well... please give a good reason why you'd expect that. The ending where Volus are dancing around a reaper corpse like Ewoks is something only paragons should get.

I disagree. I think both Paragon and Renegade should get a "medium ending". To get the "best ending", you'd have to mix up Paragon and Renegade. That would be awesome (mainly because I play that way).


I'd say keeping around resources while eleminating threats should lead to a good ending, while throwing away resources and letting potential threats go free should lead to a worse ending.

The trouble is that while in ME 1, you could spend points on social skills, ME 2 instituted an action only Paragon/Renegade system which blocked you from being able to achive much unless you went exclusively puppies-and-sugercookies or full-on-douchebag. Thereby clearly discouraging the (sensible) mixed behavior.

I think there should be "unintended consequences" at many points during the game, in addition to some reward for a "middle" path alignment, but I also feel that Para/Rene/middle should all have their pros/cons.  Additionally, Para/Rene make a little more sense to still have slightly better rewards.  A character that is more consistent in good/bad will arguably have a clearer approach, and that's probably part of the original justification for how growing your Paragon and Renegade scores would unlock persuasion options.  However, my previous post highlighted how I feel that goes too far in forcing you down one path or the other.  There ought to be some varied rewards for a "middle," sometimes logical path.

On the other hand, I am extremely wary of anything that goes too far in pleasing the intellectual but cynical netizen crowd.  I can imagine several posters writing a game where virtually every ending is "bad" unless you choose the most "logical" thing.  To be blunt, the story shouldn't be only for alpha nerds.  They've got a "mainstream" audience to hit as well, and while I'm a fair bit older than I imagine that audience to be, even older gamers are still susceptible to the charms of a somewhat happier ending.  In other words, don't believe that all people mature with the same tastes. 

I remember a really strange (at the time) line from War and Peace, referencing the "melancholy fad" among younger men.  It had never occurred to me at the time that such behaviors were adopted in fad.  I suppose today's current "fad" regarding man's way of attracting women could be the "jackass with a heart of gold."    I personally hope there is still room for a straight talker, someone who is sincere, if not always "nice" in his actions.  Being straightforward /= being a clingy, gullible guy.  So yes, nice guys can still finish last if that's what you're worried about.  Similarly, I wonder if the cynicism and sarcasm that rule our day will pass.  Family Guy/Simpsons are prime examples of a certain type of humor that imo is exhausting itself, so when a Muppets movie is released, I get quite excited. 

LotR got the feeling of "bittersweet" pretty much exactly right--fitting for that story and world.  Harry Potter, on the other hand, seemed to be more contrived.  "Let's kill off these lesser but still loved characters in order to make sure the ending isn't too happy."   Twins?--perfect choice to off one of them.  Crab and Goyle were also very twinlike, time to draw straws and see who dies!

Disclaimer:  I really like Harry Potter, but it's not an essential part of my life like LotR, so I could be biased.

[Killjoy Cutter]

strive wrote...

Object Rho is explained it is a beacon. It sounds logical to give it a defensive mechanism in case some pesky organic wants to mess with it.

The object in the mining colony? Oh yeah that thing Shepard wisely puts in the captain's quarters. I don't know much about TIM's ordeal I can't comment.

How many lives would you bet on the Collector base having no indoctrinating devices

Why do they need it? Do they just do it for the "lulz"?

They have Seeker Swarms, synthetically controlled genetically engineered soldiers, defending their own turf where no organic has ever set foot in. Heck organics can't even get there without the proper code from a Reaper/Collector Ship

Machine Cultists is that the one with Dragon's Teeth? The you know device that is designed to make husks. Why it is there no clue, but it is intended to do that. It isn't a random object laying on the ground that turns someone into a zombie as a side effect.

Actually, the object that Shep takes back to his quarters isn't from a mining colony, and isn't a Reaper artifact.  It's from one of the digsites in the Firewalker DLC, and it's Prothean in origin.

The mining colony is in one of the N7 missions, and in the back of the mine there's a large Reaper artifact that you blow up to end the mission, after fighting through wave after wave of husks, that used to be the miners. 

There was an artifact on Shanxi, and an artifact on Palaven, according to ME: Evolution.

With Object Rho, that's four off the top of my head. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

strive wrote...

Not in Mass Effect 2. Maybe in the leak? I don't recall honestly. However EDI is a good example of what Reaper tech can do, and she was based off scraps. Imagine the potential of intact parts or a whole base.

Then again, being based on scraps also greatly reduces the risk of the entire research team going cyberzombie...

No, no it doesn't.

You know, I was trying to give Cerberus credit for the EDI project there, since by all evidence they managed to create the most advanced single AI ever --and not get anyone killed, or indoctrinated, or driven mad in the process. For once, at least.

Combine that with the Thanix cannon project, and it makes it look like, on the very small scale stuff, people aren't indoctrinated by every little piece of Reaper.

Of course, if there's something in the leak that reveals that one or both research teams ended up husky or mindscrambled, then that changes.

The problem is that, at the collector base, you're not dealing with small, shattered bits in a controlled environment.  

The problem is that you're assumign that just because you blew the Collector/base, that the bits you pick up wont tindoctrinate. you do not know WHICH bits indoctrinate and which not, so you cannto say whihc bits remaine in tact and whihc didn't.

furthermore, working with bits and pieces is far harder then working with working, in-tact parts. not only will oy uget less out of it, but it will alos take longer. And that's not good with reapers knocking on your front door.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

strive wrote...

Why would the Collector Base have indoctrinating tech? They control the Collectors synthetically and never anticipated organics being there on their own terms.

Why would the inside of a dead Reaper indoctrinate? 

Why would they leave indoctrinating objects randomly lying around the galaxy to be discovered during their long slumbers? 

1) Because reapers indoctrinate - thus there is a indoctrination device inside one. Something must be generating that field, no? and that reaper was mostly dead.

2) As traps. Precisely because they know organics are likely to run into them.

*silly and boring rant about anout how I'm bad*

*generic retort that points out how wrong you are*

[Bleachrude]

 Why would the Thanix cannon be "reaper tech that will indoctrinate you"?

You don't actually use the same reaper tech so even if the entire team got indoctrinated, I would consider that a win in your favour

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Also, about TIM. Not going to happen. Shepard will save the galaxy without TIM, or not at all.

Why not?
Do you hate the man so much you're rather not save the galaxy than accept his aid?

The cost of working with TIM is too high.

Higher than reapers reaping all sentients in the galaxy and continuing their cycles?

See? This is why I say your arguments are as solid as diharea.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I think you're confising TIM with someone else.
Being Pro-Human isnt' the same as thinking humans are superior to eveyone. Pro-human means putting humantiy first. Thinking of it's interests and what is good for humanity.

Most, if not all humans are pro-human. Most turians are pro-turian. Most asari are pro-asari. That's just normal and sensible.

TIM isn't just pro-human, he repeatedly goes on about human dominance. 

Then look upon the word DOMINANCE in the dictionary bub.
I know you see is TIM and humans standing over their alien slaves and twirling their moustache, but that's narrow and flawed.
And you don't seem to have a problem with aliens dominating the galaxy.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

strive wrote...

Not in Mass Effect 2. Maybe in the leak? I don't recall honestly. However EDI is a good example of what Reaper tech can do, and she was based off scraps. Imagine the potential of intact parts or a whole base.

Then again, being based on scraps also greatly reduces the risk of the entire research team going cyberzombie...

No, no it doesn't.

You know, I was trying to give Cerberus credit for the EDI project there, since by all evidence they managed to create the most advanced single AI ever --and not get anyone killed, or indoctrinated, or driven mad in the process. For once, at least.

Combine that with the Thanix cannon project, and it makes it look like, on the very small scale stuff, people aren't indoctrinated by every little piece of Reaper.

Of course, if there's something in the leak that reveals that one or both research teams ended up husky or mindscrambled, then that changes.

The problem is that, at the collector base, you're not dealing with small, shattered bits in a controlled environment.  

The problem is that you're assumign that just because you blew the Collector/base, that the bits you pick up wont tindoctrinate. you do not know WHICH bits indoctrinate and which not, so you cannto say whihc bits remaine in tact and whihc didn't.

furthermore, working with bits and pieces is far harder then working with working, in-tact parts. not only will oy uget less out of it, but it will alos take longer. And that's not good with reapers knocking on your front door.

I was actually thinking that blowing the base's reactor and unleashing a blast of nuclear doom in the heart of the base would vaporize most of it, and what little was left would largely be lost to the black hole. 

If there are significant bits left after the explosion, I'd be kinda surprised, but I guess it would be another example of someone at Bioware not doing their homework.

[Exia001]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Also, about TIM. Not going to happen. Shepard will save the galaxy without TIM, or not at all.

Why not?
Do you hate the man so much you're rather not save the galaxy than accept his aid?

The cost of working with TIM is too high.

Higher than reapers reaping all sentients in the galaxy and continuing their cycles?

See? This is why I say your arguments are as solid as diharea.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I think you're confising TIM with someone else.
Being Pro-Human isnt' the same as thinking humans are superior to eveyone. Pro-human means putting humantiy first. Thinking of it's interests and what is good for humanity.

Most, if not all humans are pro-human. Most turians are pro-turian. Most asari are pro-asari. That's just normal and sensible.

TIM isn't just pro-human, he repeatedly goes on about human dominance. 

Then look upon the word DOMINANCE in the dictionary bub.
I know you see is TIM and humans standing over their alien slaves and twirling their moustache, but that's narrow and flawed.
And you don't seem to have a problem with aliens dominating the galaxy.

It seems like a good time to remind people that its just a game.

[Andorfiend]

strive wrote...

I'm not saying it is impossible the Collector Base wouldn't have indoctrination. It just doesn't seem necessary or probable they would have it as a defense. There is probably Dragon's Teeth inside it somewhere from the evidence of encountering husks, but I doubt that is capable of indoctrinating a whole base even then you could just remove them with Mechs. Or hell research the whole base with mechs and bring back parts of interest like weapons or data on how they program the swarms into a lab.

Some of the dialogue from the dead reaper research team implies that they were getting indoctinated by 'inactive' nanobots found on the reaper. The Reapers are constructed by nanobots as we learned in the collector base. It seems reasonable that the same nanites used in their construction are preserved in the Reaper as part of it's self-repair system. If so then we have clear signs that the construction nanites are plausible sources of indoctrination risk. Not because such a thing is needed in the construction of the Reaper, but because they later become part and parcel of the Reaper itself.

Or maybe not, other dialogue implied they were getting indoctrinated by the dreams of a dead god, so you have to take all that dialogue with a grain of salt.

The point remains there are several reasons to suspect there is an indoctrination risk. And TIM may know a lot about indoctrination, but he apparently doesn't have a clue how to stop it, or he wouldn't keep losing science teams to it.