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Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequences.


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#976
Lotion Soronarr

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ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Even if she thinks that is true, we know TIM is perfectly happy lying to peoples faces.


No you don't know. TIM lied only once to Shepard. ONLY ONCE did TIM flat-out lie against Shepard in ME2.
ONE LIE is enough for you to assume "TIM is perfeclty happy lying to peoples faces"? Talking about about paranoid... 


TIM and Cerberus lied to Aria about Grayson's involvement in her daughter's death to manipulate her existing suspiscions  and gain her aid and perpetuated that lie to ensure that she didn't interfere with their plans beyond the Omega-4 relay.


And? Sheppard can tell lies too if it furthers his agenda.

The question isn't if TIM lied - because everyone lies now and then.

The question is was is TIM's witholding of information justified. And it is.

#977
Killjoy Cutter

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And what reason do you have for trusting Tali? Garrus? Hackett? the Council?
How do you know they won't turn against you?

It's not naive to not think TIM will turn on you. He has no reason. No real motive. Nothing to gain with it.

If your whole fear/theory rides on poeple doing utterly illogical and senseless things, then by that abortion of logic, trusting anyone is stupid.


I wouldn't trust the Council; I'd count on them to be the petty, myopic career bureaucrats that they are.

Garrus and Tali?  Never lied to Shep as far as I know.

Hacket?  Never lied to Shep as far as I know, please tell me if you have an example.  

Anderson is a little suspect after he dodged the truth about what was going on with the VS and Horizon. 

TIM?  I know TIM lied to Shep multiple times, in ways that could have been lethal to Shep, the squad, and everyone on the Normandy.  I have no reason to trust TIM.


Yes, anyone could hypothetically be lying.  The difference is, we know that TIM lies to Shep in practice, repeatedly


Wrong. You're making a elephant out of a flea. Yelling "EPIC BETRAYL" when everything TIM said (and didn't say) was perfectly rational.

And you're wrong. Your cewmates did withold information from you. They dont tell you everything right away. You have to slowly get it out of them.

Yes, TIM sent Sheppard into danger. Boo-hoo!
Shep is a soldier, get used to that.


You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  Never mind the utter rediculousness of your notion that Shepard is TIM's "soldier" or "minion" in the first place. 

Which crewmate deliberately witholds vital information about a mission and puts everyone's lives in danger needlessly?  (And that's exactly what TIM does to Shep, at least twice.) 

Or are you really going to insist that there's no difference between that, and someone not immediately spilling their entire life story the moment that Shep says "hello"? 

OK, actually, now that I think about it, there is one crewmate who deceives Shep as to the details of a mission in a way that increases the risk -- Miranda, the most "cerberus" of those on the Normandy.  Huh.

The simple fact is that TIM withheld mission-vital information at Horizon, and at the "disable" Collector vessel raid, and chose his own pattern of manipulation and deceit, rather than making sure that the one person he considered worth the expense and risks of the Lazarus project was operating with all the available information. 

#978
Lotion Soronarr

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...
You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  Never mind the utter rediculousness of your notion that Shepard is TIM's "soldier" or "minion" in the first place. 


Sheppard is a soldier. That's his profession.
And you have a very warped idea of reality if you dont' understand ow things work in real life. Soldiers are routenely informed on a need-to-know basis, told only what the brass thinks they need to know.

TIM isn't your drinking buddy. You expect him to treat you as his partner? Are you that naive?


Which crewmate deliberately witholds vital information about a mission and puts everyone's lives in danger needlessly?  (And that's exactly what TIM does to Shep, at least twice.)


Obviously it wasn't needlesly, since TIM has good reasons.
Also TIM wouldn't have senmt Shep if he wasn't confident Shep could get out. And he gave him EDI to help him in thwarting that trap.
Not to mention that it wasn't even necessary for TIM to say he suspected it to be a trap. Is Shep is a such a moron that he doesn't evne want to take reasonable precautions, that's his problem.


The simple fact is that TIM withheld mission-vital information at Horizon, and at the "disable" Collector vessel raid, and chose his own pattern of manipulation and deceit, rather than making sure that the one person he considered worth the expense and risks of the Lazarus project was operating with all the available information. 


It wasn't mission-vital.
And he made sure by giving Shep a ship, EDI and skilled crew.

#979
Killjoy Cutter

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  Never mind the utter rediculousness of your notion that Shepard is TIM's "soldier" or "minion" in the first place. 


Sheppard is a soldier. That's his profession.

And you have a very warped idea of reality if you dont' understand ow things work in real life. Soldiers are routenely informed on a need-to-know basis, told only what the brass thinks they need to know.

TIM isn't your drinking buddy. You expect him to treat you as his partner? Are you that naive?


The soldiers who go into sensitive situations get a lot more information than you seem to think.  Spend some time talking with soldiers who've been involved in sensitive ops -- their officers don't without mission-vital information from them; soldiers who know what's going on do a better job. 

In fact, you appear to be opperating on this very Hollywood notion of how soldiers are treated, the whole "we were sent into this terrible situation and our superiors lied to us OMG!" setup that's become such a cliche in media. 

As for TIM, thank you for finally saying that it would be naive to trust TIM to be honest with Shepard. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Which crewmate deliberately witholds vital information about a mission and puts everyone's lives in danger needlessly?  (And that's exactly what TIM does to Shep, at least twice.)


Obviously it wasn't needlesly, since TIM has good reasons.
Also TIM wouldn't have senmt Shep if he wasn't confident Shep could get out. And he gave him EDI to help him in thwarting that trap.
Not to mention that it wasn't even necessary for TIM to say he suspected it to be a trap. Is Shep is a such a moron that he doesn't evne want to take reasonable precautions, that's his problem.


If you recall the actual conversation, TIM does his best to dodge Shep's concerns and doubts about the situation during the initial briefing.  When the fact is, TIM KNEW it was a trap, and said nothing.  You can make all the excuses you want, it won't change that TIM lied to Shepard and risked everything with that lie.  He specifically says afterward that he didn't tell Shep because he wanted to avoid Shep taking any extra precautions. 

(Never mind that the game doesn't allow you to take any extra precautions no matter what you think you smell going in.)


Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
The simple fact is that TIM withheld mission-vital information at Horizon, and at the "disable" Collector vessel raid, and chose his own pattern of manipulation and deceit, rather than making sure that the one person he considered worth the expense and risks of the Lazarus project was operating with all the available information. 


It wasn't mission-vital.
And he made sure by giving Shep a ship, EDI and skilled crew.


LoL.  More excuses. In both cases, the information was vital -- that the Collectors were specifically targeting Shep and that the VS might be there in one case, and that it was definately a known trap in the other case.  TIM can feel confident all he wants, hidden away on his remote base and taking no personal risk at all. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 décembre 2011 - 06:13 .


#980
ODST 5723

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Even if she thinks that is true, we know TIM is perfectly happy lying to peoples faces.


No you don't know. TIM lied only once to Shepard. ONLY ONCE did TIM flat-out lie against Shepard in ME2.
ONE LIE is enough for you to assume "TIM is perfeclty happy lying to peoples faces"? Talking about about paranoid... 


TIM and Cerberus lied to Aria about Grayson's involvement in her daughter's death to manipulate her existing suspiscions  and gain her aid and perpetuated that lie to ensure that she didn't interfere with their plans beyond the Omega-4 relay.


And? Sheppard can tell lies too if it furthers his agenda.

The question isn't if TIM lied - because everyone lies now and then.

The question is was is TIM's witholding of information justified. And it is.


Oh, hi Lotion.  I'd like to introduce you to The Point.  Point, this is Lotion.  Lotion, this is The Point.  He's identified that TIM lies.  Luc0s says once to Shepard.  But we can look to other examples..

But you want to start bringing up justification.  That lie helps broker the deal beyond the Omega-4 relays when Aria would never have allowed it, negating the Adjutant setup for the Cerberus takeover of Omega.

You can think it's justifed, that's immaterial to The Point.  The Point is... TIM lies.  He lies when it suits him and when it furthers his agenda.  He's a master manipulator.  For all intents and purposes, that swanky chair he sits in is a throne of lies, conforming to his whim.   That makes it quite comfortable, though sitting on it leaves him at a disadvantage if it ever comes back to bite him in the ass.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 23 décembre 2011 - 06:10 .


#981
Killjoy Cutter

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When you lie to people over and over again, when you risk their lives without their knowledge on a regular basis, when you manipulate them and get caught... eventually, they say "eff it" and leave.

#982
ODST 5723

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Agreed.

#983
Someone With Mass

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For all that work in gaining Shepard's trust, TIM seemed very eager to ****** it all away.

Feeding people tactical misinformation that could have very well lead them to their deaths is not something you can work up a trusty relationship with.

Sure, TIM doesn't need to spill all the beans, but he's got only himself to blame when Shepard does something like liberating the Normandy from Cerberus or blowing the Collector base up.

Or when other people betrays him, for that matter.

#984
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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

When you lie to people over and over again, when you risk their lives without their knowledge on a regular basis, when you manipulate them and get caught... eventually, they say "eff it" and leave.


Who are you talking about right now? I can't remember anyone lying over and over and over again in Mass Effect. 

Well, I don't know who you're talking about, but I do know that you probably aren't talking about The Ilusive Man, because he lied only once to Shepard.

Modifié par Luc0s, 23 décembre 2011 - 07:21 .


#985
Killjoy Cutter

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Twice, minimum, off the top of my head. Horizon, and the Collector vessel he knew was not disabled.

#986
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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Twice, minimum, off the top of my head. Horizon, and the Collector vessel he knew was not disabled.


TIM didn't lie about Horizon, he just withheld information. That's not the same as lying. TIM distributes his info on a need-to-know basis. Shepard, a soldier, should be used to that right now.

TIM only lied about the Collector base and for very good reasons. He explains to Shepard perfectly why he lied about it and he hoped that Shepard would understand. My Shepard didn't like it, but he understood TIM's reasons.

#987
Andorfiend

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Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Even if she thinks that is true, we know TIM is perfectly happy lying to peoples faces.


No you don't know. TIM lied only once to Shepard. ONLY ONCE did TIM flat-out lie against Shepard in ME2.
ONE LIE is enough for you to assume "TIM is perfeclty happy lying to peoples faces"? Talking about about paranoid... :huh:


Tim withheld his suspicions about the Collectors before Freedom's Progress. He also doesn't bother telling you he's being hiring your friends by using your name as bait. (Joker, Dr. Chakwas.)

He deliberately leaked information that destroyed Shepard's credibility with the Alliance and Council to order to bait Horizon as a trap, and didn't bother telling Shepard about it until after the trap had sprung.

He lied about the Collectors trap, and please don't pretend that was justified, it was TIM's single stupidest act in the game. It could easily have gotten the whole team killed and the Normandy lost. If they had gone in knowing, they could have destroyed or captured the ship right there. If you have Miranda with you on that mission even she clearly sees it as a betrayal.

The only time TIM doesn't withold information from you is the Dead Reaper mission, and even then he's been witholding the existence of the Reaper back the whole time, knowing perfectly well that physical evidence of a 37 million year old Reaper would have completely pithed the councils "Sovereign was a Geth ship" argument. 

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Given his paranoid, control-freak nature, it's far more likely that he or Miranda are lying than that he actually lost control.


TIM isn't paranoid, you are. You're totally paranoid when it comes to TIM.
And TIM isn't a control-freak either. He only gives Shepard advice and tells Shepard that he should handle as he sees fit. Doesn't sound like a total control-freak to me.


EDI, Joker, and Miranda all have dialogue about the Illusive man's control issues. And EDI never lies to you. It's also evident in the way he insists on trying to 'manage' you by denying vital information, rather than keeping to his word that you are an ally.

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

If Miranda/TIM lied to you, then they can't be trusted. If she told the truth then TIM managed to lose control of multiple projects across years of time, and he's therefore so incompetant you shouldn't trust him to order pizza.


TIM isn't incompetent. TIM gets the job done. TIM is also the only-one actually doing something about the reapers. No one else does.


We don't really need to revisit the laundry list of screwed up Cerberus projects and ops, do we? The only thing TIM does do right is bring back Shepard, and then he destroys the reputation which was the ENTIRE REASON for bringing him back and sends him off to die fighting an entirely secondary foe. And really, he even screws that up in the end, because he completely loses control of Shepard, Miranda, Jacob, EDI and the Normandy at the end of my game of ME 2. So well managed again, TIMmy.

#988
Killjoy Cutter

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Horizon -- lie of omission. 

http://www.google.co...cr=&safe=images

TIM had an excuse for lying to Shep about the "disabled" CV, that amounted to "I spend a large fortune on bringing you and you alone back from the brink of oblivion, you stopped Sovereign, and yet I don't think you're compentent enough to not telegraph that you know it's a trap. Herp."

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 décembre 2011 - 07:34 .


#989
Someone With Mass

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Why couldn't he tell Shepard that it was a trap, exactly?

I don't think Shepard would do something so stupid that would tip the Collectors off, and they weren't able to listen in to the transmissions between TIM and the Normandy.

Just a chance to be prepared and not walking in blindly is all I'm asking for. Could have been a good opportunity to disable the ship too.

#990
alex90c

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And what reason do you have for trusting Tali? Garrus? Hackett? the Council?
How do you know they won't turn against you?

It's not naive to not think TIM will turn on you. He has no reason. No real motive. Nothing to gain with it.

If your whole fear/theory rides on poeple doing utterly illogical and senseless things, then by that abortion of logic, trusting anyone is stupid.


I wouldn't trust the Council; I'd count on them to be the petty, myopic career bureaucrats that they are.

Garrus and Tali?  Never lied to Shep as far as I know.

Hacket?  Never lied to Shep as far as I know, please tell me if you have an example.  

Anderson is a little suspect after he dodged the truth about what was going on with the VS and Horizon. 

TIM?  I know TIM lied to Shep multiple times, in ways that could have been lethal to Shep, the squad, and everyone on the Normandy.  I have no reason to trust TIM.


Yes, anyone could hypothetically be lying.  The difference is, we know that TIM lies to Shep in practice, repeatedly


Wrong. You're making a elephant out of a flea. Yelling "EPIC BETRAYL" when everything TIM said (and didn't say) was perfectly rational.

And you're wrong. Your cewmates did withold information from you. They dont tell you everything right away. You have to slowly get it out of them.

Yes, TIM sent Sheppard into danger. Boo-hoo!
Shep is a soldier, get used to that.


You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  


I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.

Modifié par alex90c, 23 décembre 2011 - 07:43 .


#991
Killjoy Cutter

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alex90c wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  


I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.


I guess you need to familarize yourself with who lost WW2.

#992
Andorfiend

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double post

Modifié par Andorfiend, 23 décembre 2011 - 07:56 .


#993
Izhalezan

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  


I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.


I guess you need to familarize yourself with who lost WW2.


The Romans on the Ides of March?

#994
Andorfiend

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alex90c wrote...

I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.


Excellent example. Hitler's own officer corps tried to assasinate him. Sadly, they failed. Still, not an example of stellar leadership techniques, Ja?

And really, that's your argument? "TIM isn't bad! He's almost as good as Hitler!"Image IPB

Modifié par Andorfiend, 23 décembre 2011 - 07:58 .


#995
ultimatekotorfan

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Sh*t. Another thread becoming a Cerberus debate. I don't think that the Illusive Man is a *hero* for risking himself for is own interests. I also don't think the Illusive Man is an evil villain who manipulates people for the thrill of it. I can see his reasoning, but I wouldn't trust him.

But of course no one can just leave it at that. No reason we shouldn't be militant Cerberus or Alliance supporters.

#996
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Andorfiend wrote...

Tim withheld his suspicions about the Collectors before Freedom's Progress. He also doesn't bother telling you he's being hiring your friends by using your name as bait. (Joker, Dr. Chakwas.)


So? Those are really unimportant details. There is no time to have a tea-party and a nice long chat about how TIM did everything. There are human lifes at stake and info is on a need-to-know basis.

Also, TIM wasn't lying when he used Shepard's name as bait now did he? He simply told Joker and Chakwas the truth, that he was bringing Shepard back to life with the Lazerus project.

TIM does good work and he knows how to handle things.


Andorfiend wrote...

He deliberately leaked information that destroyed Shepard's credibility with the Alliance and Council to order to bait Horizon as a trap, and didn't bother telling Shepard about it until after the trap had sprung.


DUH! If TIM told Shepard about it beforehand than the entire plan could have gone into the water if Shepard is a Paragon. I mean, Renegade Shepard would see the logic behind TIMs plan, but Paragon Shepard, who's a blind idealistic fool in ME2, wouldn't see it.

But again, info is on a need to know basis and TIM has very good reasons for keeping up the secrecy.

Do I like it? No.
Do I understand it? Yes.

Do you like it? No.
Do you understand it? No. You simply don't and won't understand.



Andorfiend wrote...

He lied about the Collectors trap, and please don't pretend that was justified, it was TIM's single stupidest act in the game. It could easily have gotten the whole team killed and the Normandy lost. If they had gone in knowing, they could have destroyed or captured the ship right there. If you have Miranda with you on that mission even she clearly sees it as a betrayal.


It IS justified. If Shepard would have went into that ship fully prepared, it probably would have tipped off the Collectors. They would have seen it comming. They would sense that Shepard knows it's a trap. They would run off and then Shepard would NEVER have gotten the data.

TIM trusted Shepard to be capable enough to handle it and TIM was right. In the end Shepard succeeds and gets the job done, proving TIM right.

Again, did I like it? No. But did I understand it? Yes.

Again, did you like it? No. But did you understand it? No.


Andorfiend wrote...

The only time TIM doesn't withold information from you is the Dead Reaper mission, and even then he's been witholding the existence of the Reaper back the whole time, knowing perfectly well that physical evidence of a 37 million year old Reaper would have completely pithed the councils "Sovereign was a Geth ship" argument. 


Ow come on, are you serious? The council saw Sovereign in action and STILL denied that he was more than just a geth ship, they STILL denied that Sovereign was a reaper. Do you REALLY think this delerict reaper would have made any difference? Nope.

TIM did the right thing once again. He knew the council would be too stupid to see the truth. He also didn't want Shepard to chase false leads, so he didn't tell Shepard about the delerict reaper until his team discovered the reaper IFF.




Andorfiend wrote...

EDI, Joker, and Miranda all have dialogue about the Illusive man's control issues. And EDI never lies to you. It's also evident in the way he insists on trying to 'manage' you by denying vital information, rather than keeping to his word that you are an ally.


Read the Mass Effect Evoluton comic you'll understand TIM's behavior.

And again: Info is on a need-to-know basis.

And again, I do not like TIM's style, but I understand his style and I see that his style works. TIM is ruthless, but he gets results, but you just simply won't see this.





Andorfiend wrote...

We don't really need to revisit the laundry list of screwed up Cerberus projects and ops, do we?


We don't really need to revisit the laundry list of positive results Cerberus accomplished, do we?

#997
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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  


I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.


I guess you need to familarize yourself with who lost WW2.


I guess you need to familarize yourself with WHY Germany lost WW2.

#998
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Someone With Mass wrote...

Why couldn't he tell Shepard that it was a trap, exactly?

I don't think Shepard would do something so stupid that would tip the Collectors off, and they weren't able to listen in to the transmissions between TIM and the Normandy.

Just a chance to be prepared and not walking in blindly is all I'm asking for. Could have been a good opportunity to disable the ship too.


If you walked in fully prepared than that would probably have tipped the Collectors off. They would realize that Shepard knows it's a trap and they would have blew off the whole trap, leaving Shepard empty-handed.

You can question TIM's methods, but you can't question his results.


I mean think about it. If you would set out a trap for your victim and you expect your victim to walk in unprepared (since he'd be unaware of your trap). And then at the moment your victim enters the room, fully armed with his entire crew with him, then wouldn't you realize that things are off? Wouldn't you realize that your trap probably won't work? And then, what would you do? Wouldn't you just cancle the whole trap and get the hell out of there?

Modifié par Luc0s, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:27 .


#999
Lotion Soronarr

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...
The soldiers who go into sensitive situations get a lot more information than you seem to think.  Spend some time talking with soldiers who've been involved in sensitive ops -- their officers don't without mission-vital information from them; soldiers who know what's going on do a better job. 

In fact, you appear to be opperating on this very Hollywood notion of how soldiers are treated, the whole "we were sent into this terrible situation and our superiors lied to us OMG!" setup that's become such a cliche in media. 


Except TIM didn't lie. He just didn't say he think it may be a trap.
Shep had all the info he needed, but as a moron of amazing caliber, just waltzt right in without taking any precautions.




As for TIM, thank you for finally saying that it would be naive to trust TIM to be honest with Shepard.


I said he ain't your drinking buddy. Nothing more. Don't infer what I didnt' say.




Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you recall the actual conversation, TIM does his best to dodge Shep's concerns and doubts about the situation during the initial briefing.  When the fact is, TIM KNEW it was a trap, and said nothing.  You can make all the excuses you want, it won't change that TIM lied to Shepard and risked everything with that lie.  He specifically says afterward that he didn't tell Shep because he wanted to avoid Shep taking any extra precautions.


Calculated risk.
And you're poulling things out off your ass again. He didn't tell Shepard to avoid tipping off the Collectors. NOT because he didn't want Shep to take extra precautions. Any snensible man would take extra precautions, regardless of what TIM said.


(Never mind that the game doesn't allow you to take any extra precautions no matter what you think you smell going in.)


Which just proves cannon Shep is moron.



Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It wasn't mission-vital.
And he made sure by giving Shep a ship, EDI and skilled crew.


LoL.  More excuses. In both cases, the information was vital -- that the Collectors were specifically targeting Shep and that the VS might be there in one case, and that it was definately a known trap in the other case.  TIM can feel confident all he wants, hidden away on his remote base and taking no personal risk at all. 



No excuses. There was no need to tell Shep about Horizon, especially since TIM himself wan't sure. Even moreso because Shep knowing the Collectors might be after the VS wouldn't change anything about the mission. He's job remains to go in and find info on the Collectors.

And there was also no need to tell Shep about the trap.

#1000
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Andorfiend wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.


Excellent example. Hitler's own officer corps tried to assasinate him. Sadly, they failed. Still, not an example of stellar leadership techniques, Ja?

And really, that's your argument? "TIM isn't bad! He's almost as good as Hitler!"Image IPB


Goddamnit, who the hell Godwin'd this thread?