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[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And? Sheppard can tell lies too if it furthers his agenda.

The question isn't if TIM lied - because everyone lies now and then.

The question is was is TIM's witholding of information justified. And it is.

Oh, hi Lotion.  I'd like to introduce you to The Point.  Point, this is Lotion.  Lotion, this is The Point.  He's identified that TIM lies.  Luc0s says once to Shepard.  But we can look to other examples..

But you want to start bringing up justification.  That lie helps broker the deal beyond the Omega-4 relays when Aria would never have allowed it, negating the Adjutant setup for the Cerberus takeover of Omega.

You can think it's justifed, that's immaterial to The Point.  The Point is... TIM lies.  He lies when it suits him and when it furthers his agenda.  He's a master manipulator.  For all intents and purposes, that swanky chair he sits in is a throne of lies, conforming to his whim.   That makes it quite comfortable, though sitting on it leaves him at a disadvantage if it ever comes back to bite him in the ass.

Mr Point, meyhaps you should tell mr. ODST 5723 that he's not making any contact with you.

A lie being justified is NOT immaterial to the point.
So Shep can lie and manipulate and he's a Saint? But if TIM does it, he is satan?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
I don't think Shepard would do something so stupid that would tip the Collectors off, and they weren't able to listen in to the transmissions between TIM and the Normandy.

Are you sure about that?

Just a chance to be prepared and not walking in blindly is all I'm asking for. Could have been a good opportunity to disable the ship too.

If Shep really was smart, he's blow the Collectors main gun and engine. Regradless if he knew it was a trap or not.
You don't just assume the engines are really down. You make sure.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  

I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.

I guess you need to familarize yourself with who lost WW2.

I guess you need to familarize yourself with WHY Germany lost WW2.

First and foremost, it was terrible leadership at the national / political level, which worsened as the war went on.  The party elite become more and more entrenched in infighting and powerplay, and the guy with the funny mustache was the target of multiple assassinations attempts by his own officer corps as he become more and more erratic and disturbed.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I don't think Shepard would do something so stupid that would tip the Collectors off, and they weren't able to listen in to the transmissions between TIM and the Normandy.

Are you sure about that?

Could you be sure, before hand, that EDI and the Normandy could get the landing team out and escape? 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Just a chance to be prepared and not walking in blindly is all I'm asking for. Could have been a good opportunity to disable the ship too.

If Shep really was smart, he's blow the Collectors main gun and engine. Regradless if he knew it was a trap or not.  You don't just assume the engines are really down. You make sure.

And if the game had actually given us that option, every one of my Sheps would have done it starting with the first playthrough. 

[Sgt Stryker]

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.

Excellent example. Hitler's own officer corps tried to assasinate him. Sadly, they failed. Still, not an example of stellar leadership techniques, Ja?

And really, that's your argument? "TIM isn't bad! He's almost as good as Hitler!"

Goddamnit, who the hell Godwin'd this thread?

Invoking Godwin's Law does not invalidate an argument, though.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.

Excellent example. Hitler's own officer corps tried to assasinate him. Sadly, they failed. Still, not an example of stellar leadership techniques, Ja?

And really, that's your argument? "TIM isn't bad! He's almost as good as Hitler!"

Goddamnit, who the hell Godwin'd this thread?

Oddly enough, it appeared to be an attempt to justify TIM's behavior by comparing it to... those guys.

"But that's how the _____ did it!"

[Killjoy Cutter]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The soldiers who go into sensitive situations get a lot more information than you seem to think.  Spend some time talking with soldiers who've been involved in sensitive ops -- their officers don't without mission-vital information from them; soldiers who know what's going on do a better job. 

In fact, you appear to be opperating on this very Hollywood notion of how soldiers are treated, the whole "we were sent into this terrible situation and our superiors lied to us OMG!" setup that's become such a cliche in media.  [/quote]

Except TIM didn't lie. He just didn't say he think it may be a trap.
[/quote]

Since you've missed it multiple times, here it is in all-caps and bold: 

LIE  OF  OMISSION.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shep had all the info he needed, but as a moron of amazing caliber, just waltzt right in without taking any precautions.
[/quote]

Get back to us on that when you find the secret command in the game that actually lets us go make sure the ship is disabled. 



[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for TIM, thank you for finally saying that it would be naive to trust TIM to be honest with Shepard.[/quote]

I said he ain't your drinking buddy. Nothing more. Don't infer what I didnt' say.
[/quote]

No one had to infer anything.  Here is in your own words: 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You expect him to treat you as his partner? Are you that naive?
[/quote]

^  In your own words. 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If you recall the actual conversation, TIM does his best to dodge Shep's concerns and doubts about the situation during the initial briefing.  When the fact is, TIM KNEW it was a trap, and said nothing.  You can make all the excuses you want, it won't change that TIM lied to Shepard and risked everything with that lie.  He specifically says afterward that he didn't tell Shep because he wanted to avoid Shep taking any extra precautions. [/quote]

Calculated risk.

And you're poulling things out off your ass again. He didn't tell Shepard to avoid tipping off the Collectors. NOT because he didn't want Shep to take extra precautions. Any snensible man would take extra precautions, regardless of what TIM said.[/quote]

Post-collector-vessel debriefing.

And TIM doesn't have the damn right to make the decision on that risk of other's lives while leaving them in the dark. 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...

(Never mind that the game doesn't allow you to take any extra precautions no matter what you think you smell going in.) [/quote]

Which just proves cannon Shep is moron.
[/quote]

No.  It proves that the game is written as a linear railroad, and written around showing off the story that Bioware wanted to tell us, instead of around maintaining player agency. 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It wasn't mission-vital.
And he made sure by giving Shep a ship, EDI and skilled crew.
[/quote]

LoL.  More excuses. In both cases, the information was vital -- that the Collectors were specifically targeting Shep and that the VS might be there in one case, and that it was definately a known trap in the other case.  TIM can feel confident all he wants, hidden away on his remote base and taking no personal risk at all. 
[/quote]

No excuses. There was no need to tell Shep about Horizon, especially since TIM himself wan't sure. Even moreso because Shep knowing the Collectors might be after the VS wouldn't change anything about the mission. He's job remains to go in and find info on the Collectors.

And there was also no need to tell Shep about the trap.
[/quote]

So you keep repeating, no matter what anyone says or how close actually it came to losing everything.

If Shep is everything TIM keeps saying Shep is, then TIM would share this information with Shep and let Shep make the call on how to handle it.  But no matter what TIM says, it's just not in his nature to actually do that.  He spends the entire game blowing smoke up Sheps backside -- flatter, deceive, inveigle, and obfuscate.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 décembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[alex90c]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.

Excellent example. Hitler's own officer corps tried to assasinate him. Sadly, they failed. Still, not an example of stellar leadership techniques, Ja?

And really, that's your argument? "TIM isn't bad! He's almost as good as Hitler!"

Goddamnit, who the hell Godwin'd this thread?

Oddly enough, it appeared to be an attempt to justify TIM's behavior by comparing it to... those guys.

"But that's how the _____ did it!"

I don't give a toss about TIM, I was simply referring to your point about how officers wanting to preserve the loyalty of their men don't use any sort of lying or manipulation. If Hitler wanted to preserve the loyalty of his men, would he say "the Allies aren't that bad, when you go in their POW camps you'll be taken care of much better than in any of ours", or in referring to the Soviets they were simply demonised and dehumanised as just a giant Asiatic horde in order to harden the soldiers' devotion to the N*zi cause and to give them a sense of moral justification for the war crimes they may commit.

Lying is definitely a calculated risk, as if the rewards don't pay off then your men will be pissed at you, but if for example a hypothetical officer is able to convince his men the enemy in their sector are far weaker and poorly trained than they are, win a battle and only afterwards the truth is revealed, he can use that in his favour by pointing out to his men that they're actually better than they may have thought they were.

Also, yes, a number of his officers tried to assassinate him but many more stuck by him even if they did disagree with his methods, say Manstein or Paulus.

[ODST 5723]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And? Sheppard can tell lies too if it furthers his agenda.

The question isn't if TIM lied - because everyone lies now and then.

The question is was is TIM's witholding of information justified. And it is.

Oh, hi Lotion.  I'd like to introduce you to The Point.  Point, this is Lotion.  Lotion, this is The Point.  He's identified that TIM lies.  Luc0s says once to Shepard.  But we can look to other examples..

But you want to start bringing up justification.  That lie helps broker the deal beyond the Omega-4 relays when Aria would never have allowed it, negating the Adjutant setup for the Cerberus takeover of Omega.

You can think it's justifed, that's immaterial to The Point.  The Point is... TIM lies.  He lies when it suits him and when it furthers his agenda.  He's a master manipulator.  For all intents and purposes, that swanky chair he sits in is a throne of lies, conforming to his whim.   That makes it quite comfortable, though sitting on it leaves him at a disadvantage if it ever comes back to bite him in the ass.

Mr Point, meyhaps you should tell mr. ODST 5723 that he's not making any contact with you.

A lie being justified is NOT immaterial to the point.
So Shep can lie and manipulate and he's a Saint? But if TIM does it, he is satan?

First off, justification wasn't part of that conversation.  You inserted it like it had something to do with what I said.  Left-field comments aren't on point.  As such, you continue to miss the point.

Second, whether something is justified is a matter of perception and debate.  If you feel he was justfied, that's your call.  But the fact remains that he lied.  Directly and indirectly through omission.  To Shepard.  To Aria.  To others.  To further his agenda.

His history as a manipulator hurts his credibility because unless you're willing to take what he says at face value, you can no longer expect that he's giving you the truth, let alone the whole truth.

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Second, whether something is justified is a matter of perception and debate.  If you feel he was justfied, that's your call.  But the fact remains that he lied.  Directly and indirectly through omission.  To Shepard.  To Aria.  To others.  To further his agenda.

While I certainly agree in regards to the Collector Ship, I wouldn't apply that to the rest without expanding that definition of lying to just about everyone in the game, and thus make it irrelevant. He's not the only one to not give full information ahead of time: a lie of ommission has to be about something that, when left out, radically changes the validity of what is told.

It is not a catch-all for any time anyone doesn't give that specific bit of context or information that might possibly shape your opinion, because it is functionally impossible to give that level off detail. No one in the game does it: not Shepard, not Anderson, not the Council, not Tali or Liara or the Virmire Survivor or Garrus or anyone else.

There is a difference between a lie of omission, and simply an omission. The Collector Ship was an example of the first. Freedom's Progress, Horizon, the Derilect Reaper, those are the later.

[ODST 5723]

Horizon was also a lie of omission since he's the one that baited that trap through the intel leak that got the VS there to begin with.

I'm not necessarily looking for full disclosure. But those are some fairly significant omissions. Especially when you start putting the pieces together afterwards and realize the scope of TIM's manipulations.

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Horizon was also a lie of omission since he's the one that baited that trap through the intel leak that got the VS there to begin with.

That would only be a lie if he said or implied he hadn't had anything to do with it. Which he didn't.

He said that the reason the Collectors were probably targetting because of the VS. Which is completely true. His role in getting the VS there changes nothing about it.

More to the point, there's no need or reason to tell Shepard the nature of the trap beforehand... and reasons not to, given that the Normandy is bugged and the person behind that does have a business relationship with the Collectors. Security is a perfectly valid concern and reason for not telling someone something.

That's a pretty established and understood part of any military culture or conflict. There is a difference between information you need and information you want.


As a literary character, the Illusive Man is actually quite honest. He doesn't give full, unbridaled context, but he very rarely deceives. The assumptions people draw from him are their own projections, but what he says is very often perfectly true. The only direct lie we can point to in ME2 was calling the Collector Ship trap's beacon a Turian distress beacon when he knew it wasn't.

I'm not necessarily looking for full disclosure. But those are some fairly significant omissions. Especially when you start putting the pieces together afterwards and realize the scope of TIM's manipulations.

What would you have done differently had you known that he baited the trap in advance? Would you not go? Would you refuse to work with him when millions of lives are at stake? Do you have any feasible alternative for predicting when and where the Collectors will strike again? Does your desire really outweigh the security concerns?

What would have changed had he told you about the Derilect Reaper at, say, the beginning? If anyone went before knowing the IFF existed, the Reaper would have raised its shields and still fallen or been blasted out of the sky with the IFF as well. The Council's determination to wave aside the Reapers when they had their own scrap doesn't exactly suggest that any change in waving aside if you alerted them... but it could well have put the Reaper, and the IFF, beyond yours and Cerberus reach.

Did you need to know about the Derilect Reaper? Or do you merely want to?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 décembre 2011 - 10:27 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

TIM is a master of of telling the partial truth. Tbh, I don't think I can recall one time that he openly lied to me. He's just never told me the whole truth. Or facts, I guess.
Does that mean I trust him? No.
Does that mean I distrust him? Maybe.
In truth, I'm wary of him. So I'll do nothing. And sometimes, doing nothing is the hardest thing to do.
I'll wait until March 6 to decide what to do with him. Until then, debate is meaningless.

Modifié par soccerchick, 23 décembre 2011 - 10:53 .

[ediskrad327]

soccerchick wrote...

TIM is a master of of telling the partial truth. Tbh, I don't think I can recall one time that he openly lied to me. He's just never told me the whole truth. Or facts, I guess.
Does that mean I trust him? No.
Does that mean I distrust him? Maybe.
In truth, I'm wary of him. So I'll do nothing. And sometimes, doing nothing is the hardest thing to do.
I'll wait until March 6 to decide what to do with him. Until then, debate is meaningless.

seconded everything!

[Dean_the_Young]

soccerchick wrote...

TIM is a master of of telling the partial truth. Tbh, I don't think I can recall one time that he openly lied to me. He's just never told me the whole truth. Or facts, I guess.
Does that mean I trust him? No.
Does that mean I distrust him? Maybe.
In truth, I'm wary of him. So I'll do nothing. And sometimes, doing nothing is the hardest thing to do.
I'll wait until March 6 to decide what to do with him. Until then, debate is meaningless.

The Turian distress beacon, which he knew wasn't a Turian distress beacon. Though that lie can qualify for 'security purposes.'

[DrFumb1ezX]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

TIM is a master of of telling the partial truth. Tbh, I don't think I can recall one time that he openly lied to me. He's just never told me the whole truth. Or facts, I guess.
Does that mean I trust him? No.
Does that mean I distrust him? Maybe.
In truth, I'm wary of him. So I'll do nothing. And sometimes, doing nothing is the hardest thing to do.
I'll wait until March 6 to decide what to do with him. Until then, debate is meaningless.

The Turian distress beacon, which he knew wasn't a Turian distress beacon. Though that lie can qualify for 'security purposes.'

Alright, there is one right there, but I can forgive that one. I mean, I got my Widow there.
But truthfully, TIM is a brutally honest person. Who tells half-truths.
So... yeah, I'll just wait till March 6th.

[ODST 5723]

"Security Purposes"

To you that may make sense, but to me, it's a bunch of BS

Modifié par ODST 5723, 23 décembre 2011 - 11:21 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You have a very warped idea of what it means to be a soldier.  Officers and leaders who want to keep the trust and loyalty of their men don't send them into danger on half-truths, lies, and manipulation.  

I guess you need to familiarise yourself with N*zi Germany in World War 2.

I guess you need to familarize yourself with who lost WW2.

I guess you need to familarize yourself with WHY Germany lost WW2.

First and foremost, it was terrible leadership at the national / political level, which worsened as the war went on.  The party elite become more and more entrenched in infighting and powerplay, and the guy with the funny mustache was the target of multiple assassinations attempts by his own officer corps as he become more and more erratic and disturbed.

I suggest you take some extra history 101 classes on this subject, because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Is the American education system really this bad or did you just not pay any attention during history class at highschool?

Anyway, I'm not going to talk about our friend with the mustache and his German army in this thread. So,

What, are you one of those who believes that the failure of the Axis was inevitable due to economic issues? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What, are you one of those who believes that the failure of the Axis was inevitable due to economic issues? 

No.

Didn't you listen? BACK ON TOPIC!

I was pretty much ignoring your attempt to have the last word by posting an insult and then saying "but we can't talk about that anymore back on topic."  If you didn't want to talk about the issue, you should have just said "back on topic"... but that really wasn't what you were after, was it?  

Anyway, if you think that abject failure of leadership was so irrevelent that you'd insult my intelligence and education for mentioning it, and you don't think that the Axis downfall stemmed from fundamental economic/industrial issues, what exactly is your position on the defeat of the Axis in WW2? 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 24 décembre 2011 - 12:10 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Post-collector-vessel debriefing.

Everything TIM says there makes perfect sense. He's completely right. As he says; you might not like it, but the facts are with TIM.

In the end, TIM didn't betray you with the Collector ship mission and witholding the information about the trap was a necessary risk. Jacob agrees, Mordin agrees, Miranda agrees, only you don't agree.

They're characters in the game mouthing the words of the same team that made TIM into Shep's ally in ME2.  Whatever. 

As for what TIM says, he spends the whole briefing trying to flatter and bull**** Shep.  "Oh, I knew you could handle it, because you're awesome, Shep."    Deceive, inveigle, and obfuscate.  TIM saying "the facts are with me" is nothing more than TIM saying it.