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Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequences.


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#1051
vvDRUCILLAvv

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

#1052
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenver I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:

#1053
Purge the heathens

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenver I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:


I demand to be let in on the fun.

There.

I just lost my pyramid virginity.

#1054
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Purge the heathens wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenever I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:


I demand to be let in on the fun.

There.

I just lost my pyramid virginity.

It's a curse, you know. Once you lose your pyramid virginity, you can't help yourself. You have to make more...

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 24 décembre 2011 - 01:56 .


#1055
vvDRUCILLAvv

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Purge the heathens wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenver I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:


I demand to be let in on the fun.

There.

I just lost my pyramid virginity.


Congrats! :wizard: Your are now a honorary memeber of ''The Pyramid Brats''. :D

#1056
Purge the heathens

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vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Purge the heathens wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenver I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:


I demand to be let in on the fun.

There.

I just lost my pyramid virginity.


Congrats! :wizard: Your are now a honorary memeber of ''The Pyramid Brats''. :D


Oh my. Do I have to buy someone a drink or... write a hatepost or something? Both seem apt forms of celebration.

#1057
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Purge the heathens wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Purge the heathens wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenver I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:


I demand to be let in on the fun.

There.

I just lost my pyramid virginity.


Congrats! :wizard: Your are now a honorary memeber of ''The Pyramid Brats''. :D


Oh my. Do I have to buy someone a drink or... write a hatepost or something? Both seem apt forms of celebration.

Nope. We pyramid-lovers are actually sworn enemies of hateposts. That's why we use our pyramid-creating powers to derail troll threads and threads filled with hate.

#1058
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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Careful guys.

#1059
vvDRUCILLAvv

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Purge the heathens wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Purge the heathens wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenver I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:


I demand to be let in on the fun.

There.

I just lost my pyramid virginity.


Congrats! :wizard: Your are now a honorary memeber of ''The Pyramid Brats''. :D


Oh my. Do I have to buy someone a drink or... write a hatepost or something? Both seem apt forms of celebration.


No, you just got to go internet streaking..........don't ask me how though. :whistle:

#1060
vvDRUCILLAvv

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jreezy wrote...

Careful guys.


Good call jreezy......back on topic......no banning. :whistle:

#1061
Purge the heathens

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Internet streaking...

I don't think I have the necessary photographs readily available. Anyway, my spine will break if I don't leave this pyramid.

Equal consequences for all. Yes. I'm totally on-topic.

#1062
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Careful guys.


Good call jreezy......back on topic......no banning. :whistle:

Much as I hate to leave a good pyramid, I suppose you have a point. After all, I did get banned last week after making one so large it had to be deleted by the mods.

#1063
vvDRUCILLAvv

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Careful guys.


Good call jreezy......back on topic......no banning. :whistle:

Much as I hate to leave a good pyramid, I suppose you have a point. After all, I did get banned last week after making one so large it had to be deleted by the mods.


Lmao.......you got talent Cthulhu!

#1064
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Careful guys.


Good call jreezy......back on topic......no banning. :whistle:

Much as I hate to leave a good pyramid, I suppose you have a point. After all, I did get banned last week after making one so large it had to be deleted by the mods.


Lmao.......you got talent Cthulhu!

Well, I can't take all the credit; Ravensword worked just as hard on it as I did. We spent several pages making it, only to get banned and have all our beautiful work destroyed. It was tragic.:crying:

#1065
Purge the heathens

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This pyramid thing. You're doing it again.

Equal consequences for all, ahem.

#1066
Guest_Luc0s_*

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vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Purge the heathens wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Is this thread about why Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequenses (despite knowing that the main story for ME3 is pretty much complete and nearing Beta Testing)?


Or is it how Evil/saintly Cerberus and/or the illusive man is?

Or is it about WW2?

I think I lost track about 10-12 pages back with all the "I'm right, You're wrong" hateposts.

The Cerberus one. This thread has been off topic for a while now.

And yet it's not locked. Which isn't fair; whenever I get a thread off-topic, it gets locked.


Pyramids........:D

Exactly. Whenver I make a giant pyramid, the thread gets locked. It isn't fair...:crying:


I demand to be let in on the fun.

There.

I just lost my pyramid virginity.


Congrats! :wizard: Your are now a honorary memeber of ''The Pyramid Brats''. :D


Image IPB

#1067
Aumata

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Let me end this whole Cerberus thing altogether. If you were paying attention throughout Mass Effect 2, you would have realize that Bioware been telling you not to trust them at all. The Horizon level was a mess up on bioware part because it was pretty damn logical to use a planet as a trap to catch the Collectors. It was the Collector ship that was them blatantly stating not to trust Cerberus, and if you still didn't catch on after that and give them the base, all your teammates blast you for it despite the fact that some of them tells you to do it anyway. Hell they went with Cerberus screw up all the time trope with Overlord. With that being said, I believe that the major choices should have a pro's and con's this would have address the situation with them interacting with each other creating a unique experience for everybody at the end of Mass Effect 3. The Major choices would be implemented for new players at the beginning of the game thus giving them the same chances as those of us who played the last two minus the extras that comes as they would get a Shepard that starts with some teammates dead and no cameos, or mentions of the last exploits.

Modifié par Aumata, 24 décembre 2011 - 02:44 .


#1068
AnsinJung

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Why doesn't TIM tell you about preserving the Collector base before the suicide mission? Instead he forces the decision on you at the most dangerous moment. He doesn't give you time to think about the decision, or properly confer with more than two team members (if that matters to whomever), Anderson, the Council, or anyone else whom might be affected. Why would he want them involved? I can't imagine why, unless he really is acting out of the goodness of his heart, but clearly he doesn't want them knowing. That doesn't mean it's for necessarily bad reasons, but at the least, I'd call it selfish.

This is his history of "need to know" basis, and while I can see his justification, it's ridiculous to take him at face value. I start to distrust Anderson if he was giving the same missions and intel that TIM gave Shepard. I'd still trust him more, but that's because the two have a different history.

TIM has all the responsibility over his organization of Joe Nacchio. See previous Cerberus "rogue" failures, their invasion of the Flotilla, which Miranda has a nicer way of describing, and the directly hostile to Shepard Cerberus from ME1. What can TIM say to that? [I know you don't like my way of doing things]--or [that cell was rogue].

Is it unfair to TIM to distrust him because of his cliche appearance, lacking only a cat on his lap? Sure, it is. That's the direction given you by the game though. Opening scene, my thoughts were, "That girl looks like Mila Kunis," and "wow, is that Martin Sheen doing TIM's voice?" Immediately afterward, I got the distinct and obvious vibe that these people were manipulators, of the type commonly associated with conspiracy movies, some of them not to be taken seriously for how cliche they were.

It doesn't have to be logical to distrust TIM when the game clearly portrays him as it does. But then he tries to win Shepard's trust? Or does he? I actually have no idea if that was really his intent. He seemed to be dripping of ulterior motive from the start--holding a carrot on a stick for Shepard, because he knew she'd go after the Collectors/Reapers. Shepard also, as far as I'm concerned, was well aware of the risk, but was also aware of the fact that she'd be dead without Cerberus, at least as far as she knows. Falling in space with an air-leaking suit-->awake in a hospital-like environment: something went right. But nothing in the game ever confirms that Cerberus wasn't using Shepard, while there are plenty of reasons, yes some illogical like TIM's appearance to be suspicious.

I can understand the reasons for the lying about the Collector vessel, Horizon, and Freedom's Progress, or "not giving full info" as others like to call it. But as I stated before, his methods reek of dishonesty and manipulation. I realize the game tends to force the "big decisions" on you but even then you're more prepared for many of them (Legion at least tells you when you board the geth station, not while the decision is upon you) than TIM's final decision. To be frank, as the game went on I actually felt "maybe this guy (TIM) is okay, even though he's probably acting out of selfish desire more than he let's on." But then he pulls that, "oh, while you're on what's the most dangerous fight of your life, I'd like you do to this last favor for me, securing access to obscenely advanced tech which will further Cerberus's goals. It's for humanity, Shepard! Don't be stupid!" And to be honest, he convinced me and my first Shepard to preserve the base. But the more I thought about it, I wanted to blow that thing up on my "canon" run I'd be using for ME3. I can't say why other than that I don't like humanity playing the bully, which is exactly what I feared the outcome would be--TIM putting humanity not first, but atop the other species. The other more innate fear is that if humans pissed off the rest of the galaxy, they'd just band together and kill us all anyway. The Turians were in position to do it, but I guess it's safe to say that humanity was quickly catching up with the other species after joining the Citadel. At least that's the impression both games give you--not just ME2 with humans all over C-Sec, etc.

#1069
didymos1120

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AnsinJung wrote...

Why doesn't TIM tell you about preserving the Collector base before the suicide mission? 


Maybe because he had no idea it was possible until EDI sent him those schematics?

#1070
AnsinJung

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didymos1120 wrote...

AnsinJung wrote...

Why doesn't TIM tell you about preserving the Collector base before the suicide mission? 


Maybe because he had no idea it was possible until EDI sent him those schematics?


That's just another instance of "need to know," quite possibly.  It is technically possible that TIM didn't know "because EDI informed him," but EDI had also in the past informed you of new discoveries TIM already knew, like the fake Turian signal.  In other words, you have to take his/EDI's word for it.  And it's also possible that TIM didn't have any contingency and was 100% surprised at the possibility of using the Collector/Reaper technology.  Yet for someone as careful as TIM, it's hard to believe he didn't already have that goal in mind, and he pounced when it presented itself. 

Is EDI really trustworthy?  Not killing the crew after "becoming" the Normandy hardly qualifies if she's really working for TIM.  They'd just share goals in the mean time--same as Shepard and Cerberus's temporary alliance.  I like EDI and want her to be on the level, but it's kind of ridiculous to think TIM would let her out of his control.  Are we to just believe that EDI has grown so fond of Joker, Shepard, and the crew that she's "outgrown" any controls TIM put in place, or that the shackling was TIM's only contingency?

#1071
didymos1120

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Alright, fine: then explain how EDI would know how the reactor powering the base worked before you ever went anywhere near the base and were able to scan the thing?  The only reason keeping the base was an option was because of that power system allowing you to kill the Collectors without destroying everything.  Regardless of what TIM may have hoped was possible, he simply could not have known until after you'd already gone through the relay.

Modifié par didymos1120, 24 décembre 2011 - 07:24 .


#1072
Mr. Gogeta34

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I'm gonna have to side with didymos1120 on this one... if capturing the base was the priority from the outset, it wouldn't have been as big of a deal.

Captured bases happen all the time in war... it only became a big Paragon/Renegade decision because TIM popped up at the last minute to offer you the choice (which makes the choice seem more "moral" than it actually is).

#1073
AnsinJung

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didymos1120 wrote...

Alright, fine: then explain how EDI would know how the reactor powering the base worked before you ever went anywhere near the base and were able to scan the thing?  The only reason keeping the base was an option was because of that power system allowing you to kill the Collectors without destroying everything.  Regardless of what TIM may have hoped was possible, he simply could not have known until after you'd already gone through the relay.


I suppose that makes sense.  I'm just not ready to rule out that it was a very likely a contingency he hoped would be available and as is his nature, he'd tell Shepard about it when the choice was much more difficult to refuse.  I guess it's a moot point given the little I have heard about Cerberus in ME3 as well as complaints that the decision might not matter.

On a somewhat related note, I'd really like to know when TIM's conversation with Miranda (opening scene) takes place, relative to the first Normandy's destruction.  They spoke of Shepard hunting Geth, yet of the need to keep her alive.  You'd think it was before the destruction, but it's really strange they already seemed to have plans to revive Shepard.  That always struck me as the first hint that maybe they were involved in the destruction as well, and perhaps there is a control chip after all.  But at this point, that would be a fail retcon, most likely, as they'd have to make a lame story of Shepard "growing out of it" or some such to explain your freedom of choice at the previously discussed decision to destroy/save the Collector base.  And that would further induce some "Shepard is too good" raging, which probably happened enough when she woke up in Arrival. 

#1074
Lotion Soronarr

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I don't think Shepard would do something so stupid that would tip the Collectors off, and they weren't able to listen in to the transmissions between TIM and the Normandy.


Are you sure about that?


Could you be sure, before hand, that EDI and the Normandy could get the landing team out and escape?


Nope. Is it likely? That depends on how much you truist Sheppard, hiscrew and EDI's abilitites.
Either way, it was a risk that TIM tookto make SURE Shep and his team got inside thevessel in the first place.


Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Just a chance to be prepared and not walking in blindly is all I'm asking for. Could have been a good opportunity to disable the ship too.


If Shep really was smart, he's blow the Collectors main gun and engine. Regradless if he knew it was a trap or not.  You don't just assume the engines are really down. You make sure.


And if the game had actually given us that option, every one of my Sheps would have done it starting with the first playthrough. 


But it doesn't. Hence I conclude Shepard was meant to be a moron,since he is written as such.

#1075
Lotion Soronarr

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for TIM, thank you for finally saying that it would be naive to trust TIM to be honest with Shepard.


I said he ain't your drinking buddy. Nothing more. Don't infer what I didnt' say.


No one had to infer anything.  Here is in your own words: 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You expect him to treat you as his partner? Are you that naive?


^  In your own words. 


Yes, and my own words are NOT  telling what you're claiming they do.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Calculated risk.

And you're poulling things out off your ass again. He didn't tell Shepard to avoid tipping off the Collectors. NOT because he didn't want Shep to take extra precautions. Any snensible man would take extra precautions, regardless of what TIM said.


Post-collector-vessel debriefing.

And TIM doesn't have the damn right to make the decision on that risk of other's lives while leaving them in the dark.


Yes, yes he has....apparenlty.
Leaders generaly take that right.And, to make things funnier, both Morodin AND Shep in that clip agree it was the right course of action.:lol:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which just proves cannon Shep is moron.


No.  It proves that the game is written as a linear railroad, and written around showing off the story that Bioware wanted to tell us, instead of around maintaining player agency.


Given that Shep is in part a pre-determined character, yes...that does make him a moron.




So you keep repeating, no matter what anyone says or how close actually it came to losing everything.

If Shep is everything TIM keeps saying Shep is, then TIM would share this information with Shep and let Shep make the call on how to handle it.  But no matter what TIM says, it's just not in his nature to actually do that.  He spends the entire game blowing smoke up Sheps backside -- flatter, deceive, inveigle, and obfuscate.


Oh? how close did they came to loosing everytihng on the Horizon? And it's bloody war - you're always close to loosing everything.

TIM shares all the information he considers relevant. He DOES give Shep free reign on how to tackle the objective, so I don't know where you get that from.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 décembre 2011 - 09:56 .