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[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Aumata wrote...

Let me end this whole Cerberus thing altogether. If you were paying attention throughout Mass Effect 2, you would have realize that Bioware been telling you not to trust them at all.[/quote]
The Horizon level was a mess up on bioware part because it was pretty damn logical to use a planet as a trap to catch the Collectors. It was the Collector ship that was them blatantly stating not to trust Cerberus, and if you still didn't catch on after that and give them the base, all your teammates blast you for it despite the fact that some of them tells you to do it anyway.[/quote]

Horizon was a messup? Nah. Both horizon and collector ship make sense.You're going at this the wrong way.
You assume Bio wants to tell X, and then try to find justification for it in game. Just play the damn game.

The crew inconsistency about the base is just bad writing on BioWares part

[Lotion Soronarr]

AnsinJung wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AnsinJung wrote...

Why doesn't TIM tell you about preserving the Collector base before the suicide mission? 

Maybe because he had no idea it was possible until EDI sent him those schematics?

That's just another instance of "need to know," quite possibly.  It is technically possible that TIM didn't know "because EDI informed him," but EDI had also in the past informed you of new discoveries TIM already knew, like the fake Turian signal.  In other words, you have to take his/EDI's word for it.  And it's also possible that TIM didn't have any contingency and was 100% surprised at the possibility of using the Collector/Reaper technology.  Yet for someone as careful as TIM, it's hard to believe he didn't already have that goal in mind, and he pounced when it presented itself.

but how COULD he have known? From where?

The Turian signal makes sense because TIM analyzed it before Shep knew about it, but the Collector Base data came to TIM at the same it came to Shep.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Some (Paragon) people think they're are right by default and others ideas are the least accurate, wrong or weak assumptions. Even giving logic and arguments doesn't change their minds.
Lotion Soronnar is right most of the time.

[didymos1120]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Some (Paragon) people think they're are right by default and others ideas are the least accurate, wrong or weak assumptions.

Some people, period.  It's nothing to do with which ideology, fictional or otherwise, you espouse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

What amuses me is that in all those debates about the Collector Base and TIM, in all these months, no one - not one person - has yet managed to debunk the reaper superiority analysis. No one has even tried to dispute the numbers I gave there.
They just ignore it and pretend I didn't' post it. I guess that's the only thing they can do about it, since they can't debunk it, and it causes their reasonignto crumble.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What amuses me is that in all those debates about the Collector Base and TIM, in all these months, no one - not one person - has yet managed to debunk the reaper superiority analysis. No one has even tried to dispute the numbers I gave there.
They just ignore it and pretend I didn't' post it. I guess that's the only thing they can do about it, since they can't debunk it, and it causes their reasonignto crumble.

Or they just don't care.

Or it could be because trying to have a reasonable argument with you, who only responds with such detailed rebuttals as "this is ridiculous" (you have yet to spell that word correctly, by the way) or "that's stupid" is simply a waste of time.

Not to mention that you're asking for speculations, not facts.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What amuses me is that in all those debates about the Collector Base and TIM, in all these months, no one - not one person - has yet managed to debunk the reaper superiority analysis. No one has even tried to dispute the numbers I gave there.
They just ignore it and pretend I didn't' post it. I guess that's the only thing they can do about it, since they can't debunk it, and it causes their reasonignto crumble.

Or they just don't care.

Or it could be because trying to have a reasonable argument with you, who only responds with such detailed rebuttals as "this is ridiculous" (you have yet to spell that word correctly, by the way) or "that's stupid" is simply a waste of time.

Not to mention that you're asking for speculations, not facts.

OR they don't have a proper rebuttal and they know it. And you know it.

You can try to muddy the water and ignore the issue (again), but the point stands. I made a calculation all from canon numbers. And that calculation shows that the reapers can buttf**** our fleets with impunity.

If you cannot counter the numbers..if you cannot counter the math... then what do you have? All the base blowers depend on the base not being necesssary, and us being able to take on the reapers wihout it. If that is not the case, your entire line of reasoning crumbles to dust.

Now, I have backed up my claim that we cna't take them on with facts and numbers - and you and your cohorts haven't been able to debunk them in months, but you still persist.
Yes, I have every reason to call you unreasonable. Untill you manage to debunk the beforementioned claim. And you have done everything in your power to avoid doing just that.

[Someone With Mass]

No, you're just not accepting an argument when you see it and just disclaims it as "trash" the second you don't like it. Ask some other people. They'll more than likely have a similar reaction.

When you're not motivating people to continue the argument in the manner you want it to, you have no-one to blame but yourself.

[InvincibleHero]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What amuses me is that in all those debates about the Collector Base and TIM, in all these months, no one - not one person - has yet managed to debunk the reaper superiority analysis. No one has even tried to dispute the numbers I gave there.
They just ignore it and pretend I didn't' post it. I guess that's the only thing they can do about it, since they can't debunk it, and it causes their reasonignto crumble.

Lotion they are not as unbeatable as you profess. Their choice of tactics state otherwise. They ambush and gain control of citadel. They then cut off all relays and en masse system to system so they cannot be fought in numbers or effectively. They fight by proxy and weaken foes by indoctrination. If they were invincible they'd just wade in and be done with it. They are schoolyard bullies worried about losing their existence not hah hah you don't stand a chance threat.

The fact their plan didn't go off to specs means they have to fight in a manner they are not used to against more effective resistance. Yes singular ship to ship they have advantages but they are thousands and the major races can bring much more numbers to bear. They need the genetic material and cannot just vaporize entire planets or they would just do so.

[Aumata]

Lotion Sonar while I do agree that destroying the Collector base is completely stupid, as it either follows up with a deus ex machnia, and/ or both sides get the base anyway and make it either a feel good response of quitting Cerberus, or the base means don't mean squat. I am going to go with the base meaning squat, just basing on the fact that the Collector base was an allegory for trusting Cerberus and nothing else. This being that the game bludgeons you to not trust Cerberus right up to the end even when some of the squad mates agree with you prior to escaping the base.

[Candidate 88766]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What amuses me is that in all those debates about the Collector Base and TIM, in all these months, no one - not one person - has yet managed to debunk the reaper superiority analysis. No one has even tried to dispute the numbers I gave there.
They just ignore it and pretend I didn't' post it. I guess that's the only thing they can do about it, since they can't debunk it, and it causes their reasonignto crumble.

At the risk of causing this thread to go wildly off-topic, what is this 'Reaper superiority' thing?

If its just based on numbers, then surely there is nowhere near enough data available?

We don't know how many Reapers there are or how many combat-ready ships there in the combined fleets of humanity and the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Geth, Quarians (we have the total number of ships, but not the number that can perform in combat), Batarians or any other species.

if its based on stuff other than just numbers of ships I'd quite like a look at it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
At the risk of causing this thread to go wildly off-topic, what is this 'Reaper superiority' thing?

If its just based on numbers, then surely there is nowhere near enough data available?

We don't know how many Reapers there are or how many combat-ready ships there in the combined fleets of humanity and the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Geth, Quarians (we have the total number of ships, but not the number that can perform in combat), Batarians or any other species.

if its based on stuff other than just numbers of ships I'd quite like a look at it.

A lengthy analysis of reaper advantages and how with such advantages even a poor general could wipe out everyone.

Very, very, very short verison:
- Sovereign was caught by surprise, was immobile, unable to bring most guns to bear. And it was still tanking the entire fleets firepower
- devs confirmed 5th fleet has DN's
- devs confirmed without Shepard destroying the Saren Avatar, Sovereigh would have lasted a LOT longer and would have done a LOT more damage.
- "out numbers will darken the sky of every world". Sure seems like there's a whole lot of them. Especially if you take into consideration that they've been around for 40+ millions years, and have had acess to the resources of the entire galaxy. If humans can have one of the biggest fleets in just 100 years, then how many ships would the reapers have? With that much time, resources and more advanced production technology?

- a single big reaper has 8 gimbaled "red beams" that 1-shot cruisers, and 1 main gun that 1-shots everything. Assuming they fire as fast as ours (and they probably fire faster - infact, I believe in cutscene we see they do, but let's be generous), that means a single reaper can destroy 9 ships every 3-5 seconds.

- Let's be generous and assume a reaper can only tank the firepower of a fleet for 30 seconds. That means a repaer, even when surprised, can take out 50 ships before it's shields are even close to falling. And then he can retreat to FTL (where you can't follow) and come back with fully re-charged shields to blast more of your ships. a simple hit-and-run tactic that will see you loose hunderds of ships to a single reapers, without you even scratching it.

- let's not forget the reapers superior sensors, speed and endurance. They also don't have any static assets they must defend. Which means they will have complete initiative. They can outmanouver you easily (thus, superior numbers - assumign you have them - wilčl he difficult to bring to bear).

- they can also take control of hte Citadel and turn of the mass relays. Their superior FTL makes this a big advantage.

- also, indoctrination. The galaxy will be filled wiht indoctrination devices once they arrive, and your forces will be fighting eachother. Any organized resistance will be difficult, with all the reaper spies relaying info to their masters and sabotaging vital assets.


Given all this, how do you think we can win?

The only I can see would be MASSIVE outnumbering. And by that I mean 4-5 fleets focusing on a single repaer. But even if you had the numbers, the repers could still outmanouver you and force you to split your forces.

[Lotion Soronarr]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What amuses me is that in all those debates about the Collector Base and TIM, in all these months, no one - not one person - has yet managed to debunk the reaper superiority analysis. No one has even tried to dispute the numbers I gave there.
They just ignore it and pretend I didn't' post it. I guess that's the only thing they can do about it, since they can't debunk it, and it causes their reasonignto crumble.

Lotion they are not as unbeatable as you profess. Their choice of tactics state otherwise. They ambush and gain control of citadel. They then cut off all relays and en masse system to system so they cannot be fought in numbers or effectively. They fight by proxy and weaken foes by indoctrination. If they were invincible they'd just wade in and be done with it. They are schoolyard bullies worried about losing their existence not hah hah you don't stand a chance threat.

This is a logical fallcy. You assume because they do in this way that that the only way they can do it.
Even if they could steamroll everyone, whywould they even risk it if it's not necesarry?

It's like saying the US MUST send commandos and stealth bomber to take out commmunications and SAMS of some tiny 3rd world country, and prepare the way for the army, because it can't win otherwise.We both know the US military machine would steamroll anyway.
Simply put - the reaprs made it easy(er) for themselves.

If you want another example - I always use the remote to swich channels on my TV. That doesn't mean that if you take my remote I can't switch channels anymore. I just have to walk to the TV. It's a bother, but hardly challening.

There is nothing stupid in making things even easier for you.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 décembre 2011 - 09:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No, you're just not accepting an argument when you see it and just disclaims it as "trash" the second you don't like it. Ask some other people. They'll more than likely have a similar reaction.

When you're not motivating people to continue the argument in the manner you want it to, you have no-one to blame but yourself.

:lol::lol:

So now it's about "motivation"?
I have to motivate you? Seriously?

Either you want ot discuss it or you don't. Either you have counter-arguments, or you don't. And since you avoid posting any.....you don't.

Dodge the issue all you want- I'm gonna keep bringing it up. You can't keep dodging it forever.

[AnsinJung]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What amuses me is that in all those debates about the Collector Base and TIM, in all these months, no one - not one person - has yet managed to debunk the reaper superiority analysis. No one has even tried to dispute the numbers I gave there.
They just ignore it and pretend I didn't' post it. I guess that's the only thing they can do about it, since they can't debunk it, and it causes their reasonignto crumble.

Lotion they are not as unbeatable as you profess. Their choice of tactics state otherwise. They ambush and gain control of citadel. They then cut off all relays and en masse system to system so they cannot be fought in numbers or effectively. They fight by proxy and weaken foes by indoctrination. If they were invincible they'd just wade in and be done with it. They are schoolyard bullies worried about losing their existence not hah hah you don't stand a chance threat.

The fact their plan didn't go off to specs means they have to fight in a manner they are not used to against more effective resistance. Yes singular ship to ship they have advantages but they are thousands and the major races can bring much more numbers to bear. They need the genetic material and cannot just vaporize entire planets or they would just do so.

Are you suggesting it's like "A Bug's Life"--grasshoppers vs ants?  That's a cute way of looking at it, and it wouldn't surprise me if that's where BW went with it.  At least that's preferable to giving them a virus a la "War of the Worlds" or "Independence Day"

Just don't do any gimmicky "IWIN" button scenarios, BW.  Case in point:  the army of dead commanded by Aragorn in RotK (movie) basically comes in and says "this is ez" and kills the atmosphere of the battle of the Pelennor fields. 

@ others previously, thanks for the replies.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Seriously. What consequences? Give TIM the base and Cerberus sends hit squads after you. Don't give TIM the base and Cerberus sends hit squads after you. Your choice doesn't matter.

In the end of ME3 the Reapers are toast anyway. I am not worried. The galaxy will win behind the leadership of Shepard. Shepard is Captain Kirk or Captain Janeway and your Deus Ex Machina. They never lose. I just want some DLC so I can cap TIM's a** after it's over.

A Bug's Life. Grasshoppers vs. ants. Interesting.....

Links 2, 3, 4

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The consequence is that one makes sense from the outset:
Blow the base, leave TIM (taking his ship, crew, and AI)... and he wants you dead (Jacob even tells you this in the epilogue of ME2.)

while the other doesn't:
Keep the base, stay with TIM (getting his praise and discussing how everyone will be "ready to face the Reapers") while your squad universally condemns the decision (some even doing a complete 180 from their previous position)... and TIM wants you dead.

The latter makes no sense whatsoever and is a huge plot hole at this point.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 24 décembre 2011 - 10:29 .

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

And again with the "I'm right, and everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong" hateposts. BOR-RING!

[Seboist]

Cerberus going after Paragon Shepard in the middle of a Reaper war makes no sense either unless s/hes an immediate threat to them.

[ediskrad327]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus going after Paragon Shepard in the middle of a Reaper war makes no sense either unless s/hes an immediate threat to them.

they are also going after renegades, renegons and paragades

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

And again with the "I'm right, and everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong" hateposts. BOR-RING!

Agreed, lets hope the Paragon Favoritism ends... and the plot gap/hole that's currently in place for those who keep the Base gets fixed.

As it stands:

"(The Blue Button is right, and everyone who doesn't agree with me gets less content, less lives saved, less story continuity, less praise, and less positive results with no upside to making the choice over the alternative Blue choice)"

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 02:26 .