1127 réponses à ce sujet

[Labrev]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

For a risk vs. risk decision, such as Collector Base, the consequences should be as close to equal as they can make it: pros and cons for both sides, only pros for both sides, only cons for both sides.

No.

Low risk,  High gains (keep base) vs. High risk, no gains (destroy base) should bite paragons in the ass. Teh consequence should hit htem like the first of an angry god.

Of course, that's not gonan happen. Bio will wuss out of making logical decisions with logical consequences...

Oh please. I've been down that road with you and this much is clear: you couldn't see dire negative consequences if it were shown to you on a map.

Giving the Collector Base-of-Operations to an egomaniac with unchecked power and an unprecedented failure record is not low-risk in the least.

[Drone223]

Yet another PvR thread, you continue to amaze (sp) me BSN

[Dean_the_Young]

The amazingly funny thing is that nearly any individual delimma, bar a specific few, are reasonable enough when considered in isolation... it's just that, collectively, they become a reoccurring pattern, with a decided slant based on what that first one was.

I mean, has anyone actually realized that every single required P/R story choice in ME1 was a variation of 'kill someone or let them live'?

Every. Single. One.

Fist. Shiala. Rachni. The Asari doctor on Virmire. The Council decision. Even Balak's Hostages in the DLC.

Every one of them was a case of 'saving person(s) X carries risk, killing them removes risk now/in the future.' Not one of the 'save/spare them' options backfired in ME1, in ME2, and by most of the spoilers in ME3 either.

[crimzontearz]

just repeating myself
cracked.com/blog/5-real-skills-video-games-have-secretly-been-teaching-us_p2/

[John Renegade]

crimzontearz wrote...

just repeating myself
cracked.com/blog/5-real-skills-video-games-have-secretly-been-teaching-us_p2/

404

Modifié par John Renegade, 19 décembre 2011 - 09:22 .

[crimzontearz]

www.cracked.com/blog/5-real-skills-video-games-have-secretly-been-teaching-us_p2/

Modifié par crimzontearz, 19 décembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Nashiktal]

I don't want consequences I want new scenario's. I have to deal with consequences every day.

[Ziggy]

I'm a big supporter of sometimes having to do 'renegade' things to get the best outcome.

However, bioware made it quite clear in the game that paragon->nice, renegade->bad (which sucks as it effectively throws the whole moral dilemma idea out the window).
Eg: I initially kept the collector base but then the entire crew was like "i have a baad feeling about this" so I went back and destroyed it.
If in me3 bioware decided to take a more realistic approach to consequences I will be very pissed off as my main playthrough character has done everything paragon because bioware lead me to believe that was how to obtain the best (ie happiest) ending (I'm a sucker for happy endings ).

They should have gone for a more realistic approach to consequences from the beginning, it's too late to start in me3.

[Thompson family]

Renegade is the "realistic" option for maximum effectiveness? Anybody who ever had a job with a boss who even remotely resembled Renegade Shep knows what a pathetic ego-poisoned loser Renegade Shep is.

Effective "renegades" in the real world are the ones you don't see coming, the ones who are polite and quiet and competent — and who slit your throat when you least expect it, expressing regret for the need as you die.

Want to see what a real Renegade looks like? Watch Thane and imagine him without the guilt.

Renegade Shep is a clown, and not a very funny one at that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Big-decision Renegade decisions are pretty standard within established moralities, which is what most people refer to when they talk about Renegade.

[Labrev]

crimzontearz wrote...

www.cracked.com/blog/5-real-skills-video-games-have-secretly-been-teaching-us_p2/

The problem I have with this idea is where it applies to the ME morality system and the assumption being made: paragon is morally right; renegade is morally wrong. The difference is not one of right or wrong and never was.

The point of the decisions in Mass Effect are that they are moral greys, with two different paths to resolve them that are justified in their own rights.

Both sides are falliable, both sides are reasonable at different times.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, the Paragon morality doesn't fail, so it's not an example of a fallible moral choice construct. The biggest 'failure' to date has been Elnora... who, in light of all the other hardened criminals Paragon Shep has let go away, remains to be seen as a failure.

Without the Renegade morality succeding where the Paragon morality fails, there is no real equivalence between them. There's just a Renegade < Paragon dynamic.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 décembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Yezdigerd]

Wulfram wrote...

Was it ferrying them away or was it just the toughest ship around and thus the logical place for them to stay during the battle?

I guess it kinda make sense if dreadnoughts are supposed to be near invincible. Then again it should depend on the opposition. I figured the citadel fleet consisted of large number of capital ships, (as in the conversion with Vigil, "take out the Council and the entire Citadel fleet in a single surprise attack"). Except some say the DA was the only capital ship there. which of course would make it a focus target and not the best ship to relocate the council to. Given that dreadnoughts are supposed to have a great edge against smaller vessels in combat either Sovereign hit it hard on the way in, or the Geth ship were dreadnought equivalents.
Never made any sense. the Geth could apparently have annihilated the "entire Citadel fleet" without affecting the council races combat capability at all, minus the DA.

[Dave of Canada]

There seems to be a huge misconception between the majority of you between renegade dialogue and renegade choices. Dialogue is inconsistent for both Renegade and Paragon.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 décembre 2011 - 10:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Giving the Collector Base-of-Operations to an egomaniac with unchecked power and an unprecedented failure record is not low-risk in the least.

Fortunately no such thing occurs in any Bioware game to date, so tilting at windmills can wait another day.

[Dean_the_Young]

The ME1 dialogue, at least.

Most of the ME2 dialogue is good, even if it has its own share of cheesy moments vis-a-vis the Paragon dialogue.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Luc0s wrote...

ME1:
- Kill Fist (Ren): Fist is a scumbag. There is no reason to let him go freely.
- Save Feros colonists (Par): Humans have to help each other, because no one else will.
- Kill Shaila (Ren): She was indoctrinated, possibly still is. Too risky to let her stay with the Feros colonists.
- Save Rachni Queen (Par): She could become a valuable ally against the reapers.
- Kill Balak (Ren): He's obviously way too dangerous to let him go.
- Focus on Sovereign (Neutral): Killing Sovereign is obviously the highest priority.

ME2:
- Keep genophage cure data (Par): We need the krogan at their best against the reapers.
- Rewrite heretic geth (Par): With Legion, the geth are valuable ally against the reapers, thus more geth = better.
- Advocate peace between the quarians and geth (Par): We need every species focussed on the reapers.
- Stop project Overlord (Par): With Legion and his geth as our ally, Overlord becomes counter-productive.
- Keep Collector base (Ren): Even when you don't trust TIM, you can't deny that this base might contain valuable intel on the reapers.

Fist? I have Wrex with me. I made a promise to Wrex. Fist is dead.
Exogeni A-hole: got a bullet in the head.
Save the colonists: yes, but you know not all of them survived. I ran out of the grenades because they moved before the 30 second timer expired, and they were shooting so sorry...
Shiala: if she's indoctrinated why let her into your mind to give this cypher? you either trust her or you don't. If you let her into your mind, you trust her. Let her help the colonists then. If you don't. Don't get the cypher, and just kill her.
Rachni: I've done both, but I know the renegade will bite me in the butt.
Balak: Now I know killing him will bite me in the butt. This was handled very asinine. Normandy should have been able to shoot him down when he tried to escape while you rescued the hostages. End of that story.
Citadel Council: I've done both. But the DA was about toast. And there was time. Without metagaming, it cost a few ships. The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I didn't think the council would be so stupid as to brush off the reaper threat after witnessing just one of them first hand.
-------------
Genophage: yeah, keep the cure.
Geth: rewrite. advocate peace between Quarians/Geth.
Overlord: even with Geth allies and Legion, Overlord is not counter-productive. The geth communications have been decoded. So now it's possible to communicate. You don't need a human connected like that, though. I still go Par on it.
Collector Base: we've discussed this ad nauseum.

[crimzontearz]

people should begin complaining about the fact we were railroaded into pure paragon/renegade playthroughs in ME2 because Paragade and renegon playthroughs resulted in failed crisis moments and lost loyalties unless you glitched your paragon/renegade scores....which means the choices coming to bite us in the butt are, at least partially, forced on us by the fact shepard's dialectic skills are tied to his morals.....which is ridiclous

[Sgt Stryker]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Save the colonists: yes, but you know not all of them survived. I ran out of the grenades because they moved before the 30 second timer expired, and they were shooting so sorry...

Fun fact: You can still incapacitate the colonists by running up to them and bashing them with your rifle. Alright hero, time to put those kinetic barriers to good use! 

[Wulfram]

edit: Killing Fist is murder, and you aren't above the law yet.  The odds of you being prosecuted aren't high, but he's not really worth it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ferrying them away. The Citadel was being abandoned and the Council evacuated.

They were evacuated from the Citadel, onto the Destiny Ascension, yes.  That doesn't say what the DA was doing after the Council was put on board

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 décembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Wulfram]

Saphra Deden wrote...

"Evacuate the Council! ABANDON THE CITADEL!"

Yes.  Get off the Citadel, onto the Destiny Ascension.

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 décembre 2011 - 11:47 .