1127 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's all you think abandon means? So what they gonna do then? Just hang around in ****ing space?

Fight the baddies.  Which is what they in fact do, willing or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

edit: Killing Fist is murder, and you aren't above the law yet.  The odds of you being prosecuted aren't high, but he's not really worth it.[/quote]You know what's far more relevant to any legalistic argument? Shooting a dozen people to get to Fist, and shooting a half-dozen more on the way out.

Fist is a rounding error.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ferrying them away. The Citadel was being abandoned and the Council evacuated.[/quote]

They were evacuated from the Citadel, onto the Destiny Ascension, yes.  That doesn't say what the DA was doing after the Council was put on board
[/quote]They were evacuating and abandoning. So, yes. It does.

'Evacuate' and 'abandon' have pretty specific meanings in the context.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's all you think abandon means? So what they gonna do then? Just hang around in ****ing space?

Fight the baddies.  Which is what they in fact do, willing or not.

But that would not be an evacuation or an abandonment of the Citadel.

[Wulfram]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Or, they get the asses out of there. Otherwise they'd have been better leaving the Council on the Citadel which is a lot more sturdy than the Destiny Ascension. 

The Citadel is a lot more sturdy if you can close the arms.  Which is their first choice.  When they can't do that, the place with the toughest shields and armour is the Destiny Ascension.

Dean the younger wrote...

But that would not be an evacuation or an abandonment of the Citadel.

Yes, it would.  They're evacuating onto the Destiny Ascension.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Dean the younger wrote...

But that would not be an evacuation and an abandonment of the Citadel.

Yes, it would.  They're evacuating onto the Destiny Ascension.

Pardon the typo. 'and', not 'or.'

The evacuation is in the context of an abandonment. You do not abandon an objective by pulling everyone out and then loitering to fight.

[Wulfram]

I checked a youtube video, and there's a bit which looks like it's intended to show the DA skidaddling, so I'll concede the argument.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Now this gets me thinking of something else. Did the DA take refugees from the Citadel in addition to the Council? That was not mentioned specifically, but from what I'm seeing here it is implied. I'll have to check a video. Just did.

Turians were getting ripped to shreds. Whoa.... major glitch. It looked to me like the DA was home free and was getting the hell out of there with the council and whatever refugees and ready to engage FTL. Then suddenly they're dead in space? Then again they still had to get to the relay and probably go through the geth fleet to get there and that's where they got hit hard. So it's either a major oversight in the cutscenes or they just didn't show us because we were to make that decision blind making it a problem with no real consequence in the long term instead of a choice with a long term consequence. Still Hackett should have made that call. Shepard was not in a position to make a tactical assessment like that having his/her hands full with "Saren"/Sovereign's Avatar.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Troika0]

Luc0s wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

Strangely enough, all too often the most logical action (given you are not an overly naive or seriously emotionally damaged psycho) is not really offered as an option.

Mind giving an example of a logical action that you would have taken if possible, but is impossible because it's not offered by the game as a decision?

The rachni queen on Noveria. It's completely secure inside of it's cage and posing no danger to you. In that instance the best thing to do is exactly what Kaidan suggests after the fact: do nothing and contact the council; let them decide what to do with the creature (they'd most likely want it euthanized, which is why their berrating you after killing it is so bizzare, but then the writers don't seem to have much interest in them being more than obtuse caricatures of beurocrats).

[Dean_the_Young]

That setup could have been rectified as easily as 'the Rachni Queen could break through this glass in a matter of minutes', really. So you can either kill it, or accept that it gets free.

[Troika0]

I think special circumstances like these would justify you not taking any unilateral action; I think the council would want to be informed that you've come into possession of a live rachni capable of communication and would want to have the ultimate word on how to proceed.

Fair enough on wanting her to be alive, an end that might not be achievable with council involvement, but simply releasing her is an insane choice. You have no idea if she's being truthful with you or what sort of harm releasing her could cause. It would be far safer to simply transfer her to citadel custody (it's not as though the Noveria executive board will risk it's corporate charter sticking it's neck out for Bianary Helix, so you should have no trouble confiscating the specimen).

Modifié par Troika0, 20 décembre 2011 - 03:03 .

[FoxShadowblade]

I think people take it way too seriously on this forum.

[SarunasAndSoOn]

Drone223 wrote...

Yet another PvR thread, you continue to amaze (sp) me BSN

ehem... this is not PvR thread, not for me anyway. this is more like a P=R thread if that makes any sense. but whatever floats your boat. dont like it dont post in it.

[Labrev]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, the Paragon morality doesn't fail, so it's not an example of a fallible moral choice construct. The biggest 'failure' to date has been Elnora... who, in light of all the other hardened criminals Paragon Shep has let go away, remains to be seen as a failure.

Sure it is. Paragonism reeks of blind moral idealism and that is a flaw in any walk of life. Shep actually gets called on it plenty of times through the game: by Tela Vasir, Mordin, TIM, Capt. Bailey... just off the top of my head.

As for failure YES it has happened - most notably where Shep basically fails Zaeed's LM if taking the paragon path. Whether or not you get his loyalty is up to Zaeed, and it's up there in the 90+% range for persuation score so it's really damn hard to obtain. And if the leaks are true, those lives were basically saved for nothing.

And, I'm willing to make a strong wager it will happen again in ME3.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fortunately no such thing occurs in any Bioware game to date, so tilting at windmills can wait another day.

Ugh. Spare me your signature "baffle 'em with smart-sounding bullshiet" routine. 


*edit* - qualifier

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

There seems to be a huge misconception between the majority of you between renegade dialogue and renegade choices. Dialogue is inconsistent for both Renegade and Paragon.

For the record: when I speak of "Renegade" I'm talking of the major choices and not the dialogue.

I know, just mentioning it for the folks who dismiss all the major choices simply because we can potentially punch a reporter (despite an intimidate option also being present).

[didymos1120]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Whether or not you get his loyalty is up to Zaeed, and it's up there in the 90+% range for persuation score so it's really damn hard to obtain.

No, it's not very hard at all. Especially if you do it very early on (yes, it's pretty easy even with a non-import Shep).

[AVPen]

didymos1120 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Whether or not you get his loyalty is up to Zaeed, and it's up there in the 90+% range for persuation score so it's really damn hard to obtain.

No, it's not very hard at all. Especially if you do it very early on (yes, it's pretty easy even with a non-import Shep).

Was gonna post the same thing (have never, ever had a problem using Charm option on Zaeed to gain his loyalty early in ME2), but per usual, Didymos the Keeper of ME Lore managed to beat me to it. 

[TeslaStrife]

I think the problem is that bioware has made it so you almost have to stick to full renegade or paragon, in order to reap the most benefits. Providing any benefit to going "full" either path, but no real benefit to going with a blend of both; really impacted your willingness to change it up depending on the situation. I think having a morality scale is great, but it should not be anything more than a visual gauge. Not even achievements/trophies should be applied to it. If you want a game on decisions, don't give the player any benefit of going down a single path.

The one thing I hated in ME (amongst many positive qualities), was that going full renegade or paragon didn't make the game feel drastically different. Although it would have been frustrating, the way to go would have been to have positive outcomes mixed between renegade and paragon choices, allowing a player to mess up their perfect progression. That's what the whole thrill of the dialogue was supposed to be about, having a change driven by the player making their own path through the game their own way.

[TeslaStrife]

didymos1120 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Whether or not you get his loyalty is up to Zaeed, and it's up there in the 90+% range for persuation score so it's really damn hard to obtain.

No, it's not very hard at all. Especially if you do it very early on (yes, it's pretty easy even with a non-import Shep).

ME2 was my first mass effect, I played it on the PS3 (despite owning an xbox, I was a fool for waiting that long; but ultimately the PS3 has the complete package for someone going into ME2 without ME1).

I encountered Zaeed very early on, since he is immediately in your path when you go to recruit Mordin; which was my first move. I got the LM soon later, and was not completely sure how they worked. I took the paragon decision, thinking it would be more deeper than just: "you choose the wrong dialogue option, YOU FAIL!". I thought I might actually be able to save everyone, and complete the loyalty.

Suffice to say, he was my only non-loyal player; until I decided between Jack and Miranda (sorry Jack).

I think every other decision in the game largely played into paragon, or was fairly even. Paragon is the safe choice, since it seems to aid you the most in your transferable save file into the next mass effect. The less you destroy and kill, the more content you tend to have in the next; generally speaking.