1127 réponses à ce sujet

[BellaStrega]

Luc0s wrote...

Sorry people, though I'm a Paragon (or Para-gade) player, I have to agree with Lotion here (who surprisingly also turned out to be a Paragon/Para-gade player like me.


Sorry people, but Lotion is right and you guys are wrong.

It's okay to prefer saving the base. It's even okay to do so for the reasons you think are logical. The thing is, that it isn't a matter of anyone who disagrees with that being wrong - we're coming at it from a different perspective. Logic isn't a one-sided thing that only ever leads to one conclusion. Different information and different emphasis on the same information can and will lead people to different conclusions. Logic doesn't mean the same thing as "objectivity" or "intelligence." It simply means that you can look at two or more facts and come to a sound conclusion. Not necessarily the only possible sound conclusion.

Anyway, this game isn't a competition. Everyone gets to make the choices they want to make and have the game they want to have. Why do some of y'all spend so much energy insisting that your choices in the game are the only choices that could possibly make logical sense? What is so important that this inane topic has continued for nearly two years with almost no shifting? Why so invested in browbeating people into accepting that turning dangerous technology over to a major terrorist organization is somehow the best choice and the only choice that makes sense?

Also, confirmation bias. You'll never even be able to come to a different conclusion as long as you only acknowledge data that supports the conclusion you like best, never mind acknowledge that others have valid reasons for their decisions.

When I'm killing Cerberus in ME3, I'll be sure to think of y'all.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:10 .

[Yezdigerd]

Luc0s wrote...

Your argument is even weaker.

There are no eye-witnesses around when you shoot Fist (except your own squad), so no one is there to tell what happened between you and Fist.

Yeah no one except a C-sec officer and officers of the alliance Navy. Why do you expect Ashely or Kaidan to comitt perjury for you to cover up murder?
In any current military it would be their duty to see to it that you answer for your crimes. Wrex had already been taken into custody for threatening to kill Fist, that would have been something in a trial.

Really, Shepard wouldn't even be lying when he'd say that to the judge, because it's true. Sure, Fist surrendered, but no one needs to know that. Besides: Do you honestly think anyone would care enough about Fist's death to start an actual investigation against Shepard? Heck, I bet everyone is glad that scumbag is gone.

If 15+ people are massacred on the citadel, yes I would honestly expect an "actual investigation" with bells on.

The choice is a minor choice and from wat we saw in ME2, there is no real harm in letting Fist go. There is also no real harm in killing Fist (as evident by the lack of any trail and no legal actions taken against you). But you don't know that at the time in ME1. So I'd say better be save than sorry and just kill the bastard. There is no need to worry about killing Fist, for all the reasons I mentioned above.

No there are no reason to worry, because renegade actions have no belieavable consequences. You are allowed to murder people in front of an active duty C-sec officer without a comment, how much more stupid can it be?

[Lumikki]

Luc0s wrote...

It seems you don't understand what "logical" means. You're mixing up 'logic' with 'morality'. Logic is not subjective to morality. How much you value someone's life has nothing to do with logic, but everything to do with empathy and morality.

Even when letting Wrex kill Fist does not align with your morality, it's still the most logical choice to make.

A better example is the Collector base. You might hate TIM, you might hate Cerberus and you might believe the CB is an abomination, keeping it is still the most logical thing to do, whether your inner-self agrees or not. At moments like these, you need to let your head do the talking, not your heart.

Yes, but when you live in world where morality choices has consequences, then it's logical to take morality in equation.
(This is because we aren't robots, what makes decission based efficient.)

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

How is giving a Reaper base full of strange science to an organization with a long history of having strange science blow up in their face, and that bungled their investigation of the derelict Reaper,  the "logical" choice?

(Que the Cerberus fans trying to claim that none of those were really Cerberus or really Cerberus' fault or some other rote Cerberus excuse.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

PS: I "let" Wrex kill Fist, every time.

[BellaStrega]

I love that logic: "If you kill 10 people who are shooting at you, then killing one more person who has surrendered is just a rounding error.

[Lumikki]

Luc0s wrote...

Now you're just talking bull and you know it. Morality is nothing more than a personal set of beliefs of what is wrong and what is right. It had NOTHING to do with logic.

morality = emotions
emotions =/= logic

Yes, but people don't make choices based ONLY in logic. We allways have to consider also emotional and moral consequences of our choices.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:24 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Luc0s: And if anyone who uses that word were honest - they would admit, before spewing their view of logic, that they are not formally trained in the use of "logic" and therefore not truly capable of speaking as an authority on what is, and is not, logic.

And - logically - I would require proof of formal training (while stating plainly that I have none myself).

=======

I've explained why I blew up the Collector Base - and TIM is at the absolute bottom of my list - but, since logic by and large means "my correct opinion" on these forums - people are obsessed with declaring every base blower a TIM hater.

=======

Lumikki: And if you did - you would not be a human. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Wulfram]

Morality doesn't have nothing to do with logic. You need to start with a few assumptions which aren't logically based, but those serve as the framework from which the rest of your moral decisions can be derived.

[BellaStrega]

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

A better example is the Collector base. You might hate TIM, you might hate Cerberus and you might believe the CB is an abomination, keeping it is still the most logical thing to do, whether your inner-self agrees or not. At moments like these, you need to let your head do the talking, not your heart.[/quote]
Yes, but when you live in world where morality choices has consequences, then it's logical to take morality in equation.
(This is because we aren't robots, who makes decission based efficient only.)

[/quote]

Apparently, you think logic is robot-like, because you think it can only lead to one conclusion (the one you are invested in).

If you want an indoctrinated Cerberus, or at the very least a Cerberus loose in the galaxy with Reaper technology trying to promote human ascendancy and superiority over the other races, then yes, the most logical action is to hand the collector base over to The Illusive Man.

On the other hand, if you actually pay attention to what Cerberus does throughout the first two games, pay attention to what happens to everyone without exception who works in Reaper ships and around Reaper technology, and you pay attention to what The Illusive Man says and is careful not to say, giving the base to TIM makes no logical sense.  It's simply idealistic naivete that would lead anyone to believe that giving the base to TIM would lead to a positive outcome.

I'm deliberately overstating that, but it's for a good cause.

[Dean_the_Young]

Luc0s wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You'd still stand accused of conspiracy and complicity in Fist's death.

No you don't. Wrex' action is outside of your command. Shepard does not command Wrex to shoot Fist. That means that even though Wrex is part of your squad, you're not responsible for what Wrex did.

In real-life, when a soldier commits a war-crime, the commander is not being accused of conspiracy. Only the soldier who committed the crime will be prosecuted. The commander might still be interrogated, but if the commander did not order his soldier to commit a crime, then he's free of guilt.

In this case, however, there is a conspiracy. Wrex says upfront he intends to kill Fist. Shepard knows that. Shepard still leads the attack, and takes Wrex along. There's prior knowledge, and prior intent.

Moreover, Fist dying is a foreseeable consequence of the crime in question. Bank robberies in which an accideental discharge kills someone, for example, open every single one of the robbers to murder charges... even if they never held a gun. When intended lesser crimes escalate into unintended more serious crimes, everyone involved is complicit in the greater crime.

[BellaStrega]

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

Now you're just talking bull and you know it. Morality is nothing more than a personal set of beliefs of what is wrong and what is right. It had NOTHING to do with logic.

morality = emotions
emotions =/= logic[/quote]

Did you learn about logic from Star Trek? Logic isn't incompatible with emotion. Good logic takes emotions into account.

Anyway, if you eliminate emotion entirely, you'd be unable to make decisions. Turns out emotion is pretty necessary and is a survival trait.

And as Hume said,

[quote]“Reason is and ought only to be the slave
of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to
serve and obey them.” [./quote]

[Yezdigerd]

Luc0s wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

No there are no reason to worry, because renegade actions have no belieavable consequences. You are allowed to murder people in front of an active duty C-sec officer without a comment, how much more stupid can it be?

Judged on how that C-sec officer (Garrus) handels his situations, I doubt he'd take actions against Shepard if he kills Fist. Heck, if you kill Fist, Garrus actually agrees with what you did.

Yes which is why it's so hilarious. Garrus is a police officer, By Citadel law Fist is entitled to trial and laywer. Yes, Garrus has an issue with red tape, but from that to taking part in a lynching?
Turians who have such integrity that they won't even lie about their own crimes in front of a court. Renegade Shepard certainly have gift for seizing up fellow sociopaths.

[Lumikki]

What I say, humans has selective way to gather information based what they need and want, what affects you decission making. So, what you see as logical choice is decission, based your personality filtering selective information, what is based what you are. Meaning you can't see the real logical choice, you only see the logical choice what you have choosen to see.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:34 .

[BellaStrega]

Emotion Rules the Brain's Decisions

This paragraph at the end:

In fact, people who lack emotions because of brain injuries often have
difficulty making decisions at all, notes Damasio. The brain stores
emotional memories of past decisions, and those are what drive people's
choices in life, he suggests. "What makes you and me 'rational' is not
suppressing our emotions, but tempering them in a positive way," he
says.

But relevant to this thread:

The brain images revealed the amygdala, a neural
region that processes strong negative emotions such as fear, fired up
vigorously in response to each two-second (on average) gambling
decision. Where people resisted the framing effect, a brain region
connected to positive emotions such as empathy, and another that
activates whenever people face choices, lit up as well, seeming to duke
it out over the decision.
"We found everyone showed emotional biases, more
or less; no one was totally free of them," De Martino says. Even among
the four participants who were aware they were inconsistent in
decision-making, "they said, 'I know, I just couldn't help myself,' " he
says.

So, for god's sake, put down the "I'm logical, not emotional" argument. That dog won't hunt.

[BellaStrega]

Lumikki wrote...

What you just say is that amouth of information can affect decission making. What I say, humans has selective way to gather information based what they need and want, what affects you decission making. So, what you see as logical choice is decission choice, based your personality filtering selective information, what is based what you are. Meaning you can't see the real logical choice, you only see the logical choice what you have choosen.

You can see real logical choices, but if you're invested in a different outcome, you may come to a different (also) logical choice or a completely illogical choice, if they are more favorable to your perspective.

For example, #5 in this Cracked article says that faced with facts contradictory to their own beliefs, people tend to cling harder to their own beliefs.

Being aware of such cognitive tendencies can help mitigate them, at least a bit. But no one's immune.

[Lumikki]

BellaStrega wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

What you just say is that amouth of information can affect decission making. What I say, humans has selective way to gather information based what they need and want, what affects you decission making. So, what you see as logical choice is decission choice, based your personality filtering selective information, what is based what you are. Meaning you can't see the real logical choice, you only see the logical choice what you have choosen.

You can see real logical choices, but if you're invested in a different outcome, you may come to a different (also) logical choice or a completely illogical choice, if they are more favorable to your perspective.

For example, #5 in this Cracked article says that faced with facts contradictory to their own beliefs, people tend to cling harder to their own beliefs.

Being aware of such cognitive tendencies can help mitigate them, at least a bit. But no one's immune.

Yeah, because we gather selective ways information. It's like there is truth and then there is truth as we did see it. Meaning we don't really see the real truth. Same with our choices, they are too colored by what we are, to be logicals. Sure, some choices are easyer than others, but not every choices is so black and white. But we people end to make different choices, because we are different people.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:44 .

[Medhia Nox]

I've met a logical calculator, but never a logical human.

@BellaStrega: While I don't agree completely with the arguments posed in that Cracked article (I "have" accepted being wrong plenty - it's the best way to learn!) - I can certainly appreciate all these factoids.

I do agree with your comment that "no one's immune" - but I believe that with constant training, you can be "more immune" than most.