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[Riknas]

Hopefully most of you remember the Night Terrors quest, where you went into the Fade to save (or destroy) our half-elf friend Feynriel.

Out of curiosity, I saved and reloaded repeatedly just to see how each of my companions would react under the influence of the demons, and then speaking to them in their homes afterward (To which I say, screw you Aveline).

However, it brought to mind, "What would Carver or Bethany do, if tempted by Pride or Desire?" Obviously, neither of our siblings can be present for the quest, but even so it seems like an interesting hypothetical. 

In my opinion, Carver would be most tempted by Pride, while Bethany would be drawn to Desire. Even so, I can't be sure whether or not they would fall for one of the demon's ploy. Based on how your party is set up, any character can be ensorcelled except for Anders (Go figure, right?) Based on how the game handles your party set up, it is implied that Isabela and Merrill were the most susceptible to the demons' calling.

That said, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that our siblings could resist, either because of the almost-magical Hawke blood, or because of the seemingly unbreakable ties your family seems to have (except for the whole dying thing...that bond is a bit more, "flexible" let's say.)

Perhaps Friendship/Rivalry could influence it. What do you guys think?

[Dutchess]

I think Carver would give in to Pride. He desperately wants to step out of Hawke's shadow, so if Pride offered him something that would make him awesome, I think he would accept.
Bethany might give in to Desire as well if she promises her a normal life where she doesn't have magic and can just live in peace with her family.

So I think both siblings won't resist the right offer.

[esper]

Hawke can fall to Sloth. (If you take Torpors deal you are not resisting), so if the player character is capable of being influenced the siblings would be influenced as well... No one is immune, that is kinda the point of the quest. I agree with Carver pride and Bethany desire of the demons present.

[Knight of Dane]

Riknas wrote...
Based on how your party is set up, any character can be ensorcelled except for Anders (Go figure, right?)

No, Anders can fall to Vengance, again. But only if you play around too much with Torpor. You kinda have to pull his betrayal out of him..

Anyway:
I could honestly see both Desire and Pride influence both siblings. Perhaps that should be determined by f/r level. A rivaled Carver goes to Pride because of his struggle to proove himself to Hawke and a friended Carver goes to Desire because she pulls his desire for individuality even when things are settled with him and Hawke.
Not sure about Bethany though, i only ever friended her.

[TEWR]

Desire and Pride for Bethany could be tied to her fate. Maybe if she's a Warden the Desire Demon tempts her with the promise of being cured of the Taint, while Pride may play on something else.

Though Bethany never really seemed prideful to me, so she'd probably be immune to the Pride Demon.

But I kinda enjoy the siblings not being able to be brought into the Fade.

[Knight of Dane]

Heh, yeah they are uncorruptive

[StarkeyKing]

I like big boats, I cannot lie! I love Isabella!

[Huntress]

Bethany is not prideful thats why she wants to be "normal"* (* weak).. Still she might be fooled by Desire demon.. I do have my doughts that bethany fall for it even thought Malcom was a blood mage in legacy, she does seems to know where to draw the line, at least thats my impression of her been a warden or I just like her very much as my hawke little sister and can't see her falling pray of a demon.

Carver he might take Pride "favor" he wants to show off.. meh that remind me a talk my hawke had with him:

Carver:/brag: I have seen so much of this world sister...

Hawke: is a pitty that you're world is so small.
me: ROFL!!

Modifié par Huntress, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Riknas]

Knight of Dane wrote...


No, Anders can fall to Vengance, again. But only if you play around too much with Torpor. You kinda have to pull his betrayal out of him..

Well, yes. But that's not quite what I meant. What Anders has going on is a completely different issue. It's not even Vengeance at that point, but more of an argument with Justice himself.

Even so, thinking further... Since some of you seem to think they could fall in, I'd say that the only circumstances would be if Bethany was made a rival (which of course, borders on impossible), or if Carver was left completely unattended.

Carver, when a rival almost nurses his resentment that it becomes part of him, that he lives his own life either as a Templar or a Warden, but ultimately accepts the responsibility of family. If Meredith could not make a rival Templar Carver try and kill me, then nothing can, I say. Because essentially, that's what the demons would be asking of them in the fade, and killing someone is a good way to get out of another person's shadow.

Now, if we were to fully friend either sibling, I am pretty adamant in the idea that nothing could sway them to betray us short of drugs, torture, and/or magic.

[Thiefy]

wouldn't it just depend on when the siblings went with you? because if bethany goes to the circle, she already undergoes the harrowing which tests her against demonds

[thats1evildude]

Carver would be tempted by the Pride Demon's offer to grant him prestige and renown. Wryme would promise to make him a figure of legend on par with the Hero of Ferelden.

Bethany would be tempted by the Desire Demon's offer of a normal life. Caress would promise to supress Bethany's magic and help her to escape the Circle of Magi/Grey Wardens.

[Dutchess]

In the mage/templar conflict, Aveline will also refuse to fight you no matter what. Yet she can be persuaded by the desire demon. It's not the same thing. The demons have a better offer than Meredith. They promise what they want most.
Whether any of your companions betrays you in the Fade, is independent of friendship/rivalry. Even your LI betrays you still. So I don't see why that would matter so much then for the siblings. I think they both clearly have things they desperately want, and that with the persuasion of a demon, they can fall for that.

[RenaissanceDweeb]

What renjility said. Also, the only reason Anders can't betray you in the Fade is because it's not Anders in the Fade. He tells you at some point that he doesn't dream anymore, or doesn't remember his dreams, and it's because when he is in the Fade Justice is the one in control. Anders is hidden somewhere within his own mind while Justice is out and about telling demons to stuff it and sod off, Anders is his. Now, I did manage a playthrough where only one party member betrayed me and it was a party of Varric, Anders, and Fenris. Fenris succumbed to the Pride Demon in place of Varric for whatever reason and the Desire Demon had nothing for Varric.

[Knight of Dane]

Even though the promise of Bartrand's wealth could as much have been desireable as proudfull.

[thats1evildude]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Even though the promise of Bartrand's wealth could as much have been desireable as proudfull.

The pride demon didn't appeal to Varric's greed, it played on his resentment of Bartrand.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 21 décembre 2011 - 09:30 .

[Knight of Dane]

thats1evildude wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Even though the promise of Bartrand's wealth could as much have been desireable as proudfull.

The pride demon didn't appeal to Varric's greed, it played on his resentment of Bartrand.

And recentment = pride? Couldn't a want to cross him be desire just as much as pride?

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 22 décembre 2011 - 12:12 .

[RenaissanceDweeb]

Varric doesn't really need wealth. He has all the money he needs for little to no effort on his part; he loves to talk and as he told Aveline, "coins flow when I talk and when I keep my mouth shut." He's likely got his fingers in a lot of pies and works as an informant of a sort as well as his writing and whatever money his family gets by being part of the Dwarven Merchants Guild. Pride gets him by telling him what he knows which is that he is better than Bartrand and, really, does all this work behind the scenes but doesn't get a single word of thanks or even acknowledgement because he's the younger brother and not the head of house. Essentially what Carver's issue is only for the most part he's accepted that it is what it is which is why it would take a Pride Demon to bring that resentment to the fore and build it up into a usable force. They are the most powerful demons after all and have the most persuasive arguments for those resistant to most temptations.

[thats1evildude]

Bartrand's betrayal left Varric humiliated. Not only did Bartrand completely fool him, but he got away with it completely scotfree. And even though Varric found an immense treasure trove in the Deep Roads, he still felt like Bartrand came away with the greater prize: the lyrium idol.

The pride demon didn't just offer Varric the opportunity for revenge, but the chance to "correct the story" and one-up his arrogant brother.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 décembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[RenaissanceDweeb]

I still want to know what is so awesome about that lyrium idol. The demons obviously know or the Pride Demon's just working off assumptions in Varric's mind. Still going to go with "Sith Lyrium." Too bad Bartrand's never in a solid enough state of mind for it to be worth anything which proves something about Varric that he can actually recognize it and agree. Never really taken anyone else other than those three and Isabela instead of Fenris a couple times so I can't speak for anyone else growing up and acknowledging what the demons showed them; minus Fenris. Everything was my fault apparently.

[thats1evildude]

RenaissanceDweeb wrote...

I still want to know what is so awesome about that lyrium idol. The demons obviously know or the Pride Demon's just working off assumptions in Varric's mind. Still going to go with "Sith Lyrium." Too bad Bartrand's never in a solid enough state of mind for it to be worth anything which proves something about Varric that he can actually recognize it and agree.

Besides being an ancient artifact of a lost thaig that's sat forgotten for thousands of years, it's a thing that shouldn't be. Since lyrium is so dangerous to work with and immensely valuable, you'd have to be either insane or have a very specific reason to fashion it into a mundane item like an idol.

Fenris apologizes for turning on you if you're in a Friendship with him. At least that's been my experience.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 décembre 2011 - 06:40 .

[Dutchess]

 He apologizes with rivalry too, immediately after you're back from the Fade. But in the quest you then get to talk to him, he tells you you are also to blame for his betrayal. It was your fault he was in the Fade in the first place.

[Dutchess]

 The internetz eated my post. Another try.

Edit: and of course now a double post. Sorry.

Modifié par renjility, 22 décembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[TEWR]

Knight of Dane wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Even though the promise of Bartrand's wealth could as much have been desireable as proudfull.

The pride demon didn't appeal to Varric's greed, it played on his resentment of Bartrand.

And recentment = pride? Couldn't a want to cross him be desire just as much as pride?

I think the Pride Demon played more on him being the good brother, the one who wouldn't betray his friends or family for a lousy idol.

And that's why Varric resents Bartrand. Because Bartrand betrayed the people close to him for wealth, which in the end corrupted his mind.

So it's an issue of pride and pride only.

[BTG_01]

Doesn't Bethany say that she's always wished she'd never been born with "this accursed magic", or something like that? The Desire Demon could have played off her desire to be normal.

[Sifr]

Pride would easily manipulate Carver. It's also possible that Desire could exploit his long-standing crush on Merrill as well, offering to make it so she only has eyes for him and not his elder sibling.

I think Bethany would be tempted by Desire's offer for a normal life without magic, although I can see Desire also offering her a relationship with a Sebastian free from his vow of chastity, which would allow them to have children, (though I don't doubt she'd object to be able to "Sing the Chant" with Sebastian.)

Regardless of the offer, I don't think Bethany would succumb to the temptation like Carver would. We know from if she goes to the Circle she can easily pass the Harrowing, which is essentially the same situation and her father's warnings about the dangers of falling pray to demons seems too ingrained into her for her to simply ignore.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 31 décembre 2011 - 10:25 .