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[WillieStyle]

MadCat221 wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

It's a single-player game.
You don't need balance.
Lore, also.

Lore seems to suggest that Templars are effective against all but the mightiest of mages.  Something that the gameplay does not reflect.

Sigh! You're clearly a min/max WoW kiddie.
Lore means things in the story that suggest mages are powerful. They count.
Things in the story that suggest mages have weaknesses or limitations aren't lore. They don't count.
Also.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:01 .

[MadCat221]

Sigh! You're clearly a prejudgemental punk who didn't really study the lore.  FYI, I haven't played WoW and won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  And I definitely don't min/max... heck, I was only aware of Cheese Clash... ahem... Mana Clash in passing until it became a point in this topic.

I really got the impression from dialog and story bits that the Templars were the main counter against mages. Something that the gameplay does not reflect at all. I got the impression from the story that Mages were above all except a good Templar. Heck, the whole Mage origin drove this home. Why would mages be resentful against the Templars if they could easily just sweep them aside?

Modifié par MadCat221, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:13 .

[Blank Syndrome]

MadCat221 wrote...

Sigh! You're clearly a prejudgemental punk who didn't really study the lore.  FYI, I haven't played WoW and won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  And I definitely don't min/max... heck, I was only aware of Cheese Clash... ahem... Mana Clash in passing until it became a point in this topic.

I really got the impression from dialog and story bits that the Templars were the main counter against mages. Something that the gameplay does not reflect at all. I got the impression from the story that Mages were above all except a good Templar. Heck, the whole Mage origin drove this home. Why would mages be resentful against the Templars if they could easily just sweep them aside?

'Twas in jest, you know.

[MadCat221]

Blank Syndrome wrote...

'Twas in jest, you know.

A typical response when someone calls out another on an improper remark.

In any case, this digresses fromt the topic of the Templar spec being nerfed.

Devs, are there any plans to give some teeth to the Templars against mages, like they were made out to have?

Modifié par MadCat221, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[slikster]

I hear ya MadCat.. My mages haven't specced any of the cheese-spells, so I didn't know mages were more uber mage killers than Templars. But I have felt underwhelmed whacking a mage with Holy Smite and watching maybe a 1/10 of their health get knocked off. On top of that, when they wake up, if I don't get to them right away, they seem to have lots of mana to spam spells with.

[Radahldo]

I seriously blame the months of constant debate about Templar vs Mage, Holy Smite seemed really powerful at the time. All of that protest...



I remember Chris saying that "you realize you are gonna fight mages-- don't you want a way to beat them?" or something; well, this really isnt what I expected.

[Kordras]

I just need to figure out what the stats of the templars in the Circle are... I mean, literally, as soon as I opened the door, a pillar of light would drop on my face and I would be wrecked. I just wish I could be half as effective using my templar. He gets the job done, but he's no 'mage-killer'.

[Brunopolis]

Madcat221....you are completely blind. Williestyle was clearly being sarcastic. Take a chill pill seriously.



As for your post I definitely agree. Mages on the whole are broken and the "supposed" counters like golems and templars are worthless.



I think the problem with the combat system is mages just do too many things. Personally, I think the whole healing branch, for example, should not be available to mages unless they specialize. The shapeshifting tree should get another branch and the blood mage tree should get yet another. Mages get way too many options initially compared to the other classes.

[Seclus]

it is intresting... sometimes my smite abbility wrecks a mage and makes them a breath away from death other times it just tickles them and they seem un phased by my the spell. Its just so hit and miss with the smite ability it seems.



also smite has a base damage and if it drains mana it converts the mana drained to damage to the mage on top of the base damage. what stat makes smite shine is it magic or is it will power?

[MadCat221]

Seclus wrote...

it is intresting... sometimes my smite abbility wrecks a mage and makes them a breath away from death other times it just tickles them and they seem un phased by my the spell. Its just so hit and miss with the smite ability it seems.

also smite has a base damage and if it drains mana it converts the mana drained to damage to the mage on top of the base damage. what stat makes smite shine is it magic or is it will power?

I looked at the equation, and it's Willpower that does it.  But something else is mitigating it, because my PC has 28 willpower (23 base + 5 from Armor of DIligence) and still only does moderate damage against a mage.  It'd be a good 2nd or 3rd tier spell, but it is lacking in the 4th tier it's in.

Modifié par MadCat221, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:22 .

[Sarethus]

MadCat221 wrote...


Lore seems to suggest that Templars are effective against all but the mightiest of mages.  Something that the gameplay does not reflect.

True but your Lore is incomplete. Teams/Parties of Templars are truly effective against mages. If you talk to Duncan during the mage origin he describes a team of templars fighting a single blood mage.  

[Rainen89]

Honestly it has it's uses. Especially in the final battle good, god does it get used a lot there. Other than that it's perfect for setting up mages to use CC especially mass paralysis. I was surprised it wasn't a heavy hitting ability but given that it is an aoe the damage is fairly adequate. Though I suspect something else affects it's damage output rather than str but it's not really worth pulling points away. Anywho, it's a good ability. Besides mana clash smites mages.

[Dark83]

To be fair, a team of templars or knights would be effective against a single anything.

[slikster]

Ok, poked around the toolset.

Don't look if you think combat mechanics are spoilers or if you want to remain in the dark.

Here's the numbers:

Damage to Mage as target of Holy Smite:
fMana=(100+WillpowerMod)*0.4 Mana Drain (if target mana is lower than fMana, fMana=target's Mana)
(Updated: was using wrong 0.2 instead of 0.5 for mana drain spirit damage constant)
fDamage=(100+WillpowerMod)*0.2+fMana*0.5 Spirit Damage
Chance of stun (Physical Resistance check)

Damage to everyone else in AOE:
(100+WillpowerMod)*0.2 Spirit Damage
Knockdown

So, let's say you have a Templar with 30 Willpower, his Will Modifier is 20, so if we plug it in above, we get:

48 Mana Drain
48 Spirit Damage

If the mage you targeted had only 28 mana when it was cast on him, it would just drain him to 0 mana and damage would be less, he'd only take 24+28*0.5=38 spirit damage.

That's pretty weak against mages later on in the game. Pumping Willpower has little effect either, here's what the spell does against a mage when your Templar has 10 Willpower.

40 Mana Drain
40 Spirit Damage

So, one point in willpower will net you 0.4 points towards mana drain and 0.4 points towards spirit damage. (Against a mage)

Modifié par slikster, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[pinzig]

had that group of templars whacking on my arcane warrior...

was kind of annoying that the temps would cleanse and bump my half dozen sustained effects that were sitting on top of my mana puddle..

but the heavy armor would hold out, combat magic lovin would come back online, and down they went.....

[dunehunter]

Holy smite is useless in the final battle, i cast it at the archdemon and it deals 6 damages......

It is not the holy smite but the whole chain of templar's talents that is suck. Metal fortress,rXX strike and even mana cleanse is not useful since it can't remove the debuff on the templar himself.

[Seclus]

so basicly with what your saying a templar with a will power of 30 could do 33.6 spirit damage 48 mana drain and an additional 48 damage as all mana drain is converted to health damage as well. so final tally of damage in done would be.... 81.6 health damage and 48 mana reduction. sounds like a solid amount of damage in one shot.

[Rainen89]

Not on the archdemon, no spell is useful on the archdemon save for your hexes. It is however useful on the continuous waves of darkspawn that get one shotted by it yet still do normal monster damage. While also providing a damn near irresistable knockdown.

[slikster]

No, not additional 48 damage, that's included in the equation.

[dunehunter]

But it cost 75 stamina !! How can i depend on such a talent when we have 2h sweep or DW sweep?

[slikster]

Plus, if it's not a mage that is the main target of the spell the damage is just fDamage=(100+WillpowerMod)*0.2. As well, it is spirit damage, so if they have resistences to spirit damge, it will do less. I guess you could hex em though.

[Seclus]

but the description states in game states if a mage fails to resist the mana drain it will take an addition amount of damage equal to the mana drain. so if the base spirit damage is 33.6 and the mana drain is 48 then they would take an additional 48 damage if the mana drain effect was not resisted.

[slikster]

No, the base damage with 30 willpower is 24. Add to that the extra damage from mana drain 48*0.2 which is 9.6. 24+9.6=33.6  And that is the actual numbers the game uses, never mind the lore.

Modifié par slikster, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[slikster]

Actually, it should be 48*0.5, was looking at the wrong constant for health damage from mana drain, I'll update the original post. So 30 willpower gives you 24+24=48 total spirit damage, against a mage. That is a little better, but still lacking

[bg2408]

1. I agree that the holy smite is... kind of very weak. Considering that there's no true "holy" anything in the Dragon Age setting, this may or may not be even lore correct. Kind of jarring nonetheless. Imho it should be considerably more powerful if only for balancing reasons.

2. It is not uncommon that mages are the best against mages. I always love to use Baldur's Gate 2 as an example, so here again: Take Keldorn (inquisitor, paladin built specialized in fighting mages) and Edwin (plain old mage). Give them the best available equipment and spells (but no buffs from other party members). And then plot each of them alone against Kangaxx...

Fighters going against powerful mages are always kind of the underdogs, relying on numbers, "unknightly" tactics (like in the example Duncan gives during the Mage origin - sneaking in from behind) or both. A mage on the other hand usually have some methods at hand, because traditionally one of their great strengths is versatility. (Though imho DA goes totally over the top with this, due to throwing healing and the like into the mold.)