80 réponses à ce sujet

[Skellimancer]

konfeta wrote...

Mages are better magehunters than Templars?

Hilarity.

this.

[Skellimancer]

WillieStyle wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

It's a single-player game.
You don't need balance.
Lore, also.

Lore seems to suggest that Templars are effective against all but the mightiest of mages.  Something that the gameplay does not reflect.

Sigh! You're clearly a min/max WoW kiddie.
Lore means things in the story that suggest mages are powerful. They count.
Things in the story that suggest mages have weaknesses or limitations aren't lore. They don't count.
Also.

Lore also states that MAGE HUNTERS should be able to kill mages.

[slikster]

Just thought I'd mention this while I'm thinking about it. I'm not sure how the scripting functions work exactly, since the wiki is down, but your Templars willpower might effect the physical resistance check for the stun/knockdown effects.

[Korva]

I went for Templar/Champion with my sword & board warrior for RP reasons and because I thought Templar would indeed be a "mage killer" and make the character more useful against casters.

Let's just say I'm totally unimpressed.

Holy Smite does damage in the twenties, with my character's Willpower in the same range. I was expecting it to if not one-shot "white" mages, at least significantly hurt them. No such thing. It just tickles them a bit. I do use Holy Smite in group fights to help glue everyone to my character, and the knockback is nice -- but for its stated purpose, it fails big time and also costs way too much stamina to activate. I wish they'd double the damage or cut the cost in half to make it more useful.

It's not just Holy Smite that's a letdown, either. Righteous Strike? Mages get CC'ed or focus fired down from range, or I sic my mabari on them with Overwhelm -- so I don't even know how much mana it drains. In line with the generally weak warrior abilities, I bet it's like 2 mana per hit or something. Cleanse Area? It says "friendly fire possible", but in reality it does not work. I wanted to use it party as a debuff-cleanser for my own team, but it never removes anything from them. Mental Fortress? How often do enemy casters actually cast anything requiring a mental resistance check?

The concept of the Templar subclass is nice, but in practice it just falls flat on its face.

[DM Veil]

Having a targetable aoe stun as a warrior is pretty handy I think, but that's just me.

[miltos33]

The best mage killer in the game is the dog. Enough said.

[surrealitycheck]

Let us sing the ballad of mana clash.



Maaaaaaaaanaaaaaaaa clashhhhhhhhhhh

[Itkovian]

I for one found Holy Smite to be extremely useful for mage hunting. Both my Sword and Board PC and Alistair (specced for 2 handed weapons) had it, and it was extremely useful (along with the other Templar talents).

But if you expect Holy Smite to severely hurt mages, then no it does not do so. What it DOES do is give your warriors a way to shut mages down long enough for them to get into melee and take a few swings at them, which usually ends up killing them.

The way it worked out for me was simple: if we met a mage, he would take a Holy Smite in the face, and either Alistair or myself would run up to him and kill him before he could do any harm (by the time he recovers from the stun, he is either almost dead, or getting stunned/knocked down again then killed).

Meanwhile, my mage(s) save 4 talent points by not taking Mana Clash, and can focus on destroying/CCing the enemy (like, for example, the masses of ambushing archers we run into so often).

Add to that that the templar dispel magic is extremely useful (gets rid of those hexes, thank you), and I for one was extremely satisfied with the Tempalr talents (again, not the least reason is that it lets my mage focus on other things).

Itkovian

[Gecon]

bg2408 wrote...
[...] I always love to use Baldur's Gate 2 as an example, so here again: Take Keldorn (inquisitor, paladin built specialized in fighting mages) and Edwin (plain old mage). Give them the best available equipment and spells (but no buffs from other party members). And then plot each of them alone against Kangaxx...
[...]

Thats simple. Keldorn will use a protection vs magic scroll and then hack Kangaxx away with the Mace of Disruption +2 (which is effectively a +5 weapon and WILL damage Kangaxx). A treatment Kangaxx wont stand for long.

Edwin cant possibly use this scroll. He will have to have learned Spell Immunity and cast it against Abjuration. Then he can hack away with whatever spells he can come up with.

[WhiteLotusEldor]

AAlanion wrote...

Well, I suppose the templars never aimed to solo the apostates they were hunting?

They are the best class to take on mages, apart from other mages.

Actually either variant of Rogue can take out a Mage better than a Templar as well.

My dualwield Rogue would kill Mages out of stealth before they cast a single spell. They simply don't have enough health to live out a Momentum + Dirty Fighting Stun -> Backstab Storm. Add in Marked for Death and Pinpoint Strikes for Boss Type mages and they wouldn't last 10 seconds of constant Backstabs. And i've had Leliana 1 shot mages with Arrow of Slaying so i imagine with a PC built Archer Rogue i could easily wreck Enemy Mages not to mention busting out a Super Spider <Ranger Pet> to CC them with Web + Overwhelm while i pluck away with Arrows.

The best way to beat a Mage is to win a DPS race or CC them either of which Warrior's fall down to 3rd place, 4th if you take into account the Rogue as 2 different specs.

[Skellimancer]

Gecon wrote...

bg2408 wrote...
[...] I always love to use Baldur's Gate 2 as an example, so here again: Take Keldorn (inquisitor, paladin built specialized in fighting mages) and Edwin (plain old mage). Give them the best available equipment and spells (but no buffs from other party members). And then plot each of them alone against Kangaxx...
[...]

Thats simple. Keldorn will use a protection vs magic scroll and then hack Kangaxx away with the Mace of Disruption +2 (which is effectively a +5 weapon and WILL damage Kangaxx). A treatment Kangaxx wont stand for long.

Edwin cant possibly use this scroll. He will have to have learned Spell Immunity and cast it against Abjuration. Then he can hack away with whatever spells he can come up with.

In this game Edwin could just use Mana Clash.

Easy xp

[deathwing200]

Templars are awful caster killers. Once they blow their holy smite they're just another melee class to be CC'd. Game's lore is hilarious when it mentions how templars are supposed to somehow control mages. They'd be obliterated.

[Itkovian]

Strangely, that's not what happens to my warriors. They spot a caster, Holy Smite them, and by the time the mage/emissary is out of stun they're half dead and getting stunned/knocked down, and then killed.

Holy Smite works, it's just that damage is not its main purpose, it's the long-duration stun. As a mage, I wouldn't like to be facing a bunch of trained templars.

Remember, Templars are NOT meant to be more powerful than mages. They're just the non-magic users who are best equipped to kill mages. There's more of them, they know how to properly fight mages (watching out for AoE, and so forth), can dispel their magical effects, and those with Holy Smite can and WILL shut down the mages long enough to get in melee and take them out.

So, yeah, when I RP my mage, I stay away from Templars, because short of another mage they're the best mage killers out there.

Itkovian

[Korva]

DM Veil wrote...

Having a targetable aoe stun as a warrior is pretty handy I think, but that's just me.

It is handy, and I use and like it for that purpose. But it isn't the mage-killer I was expecting.

Itkovian wrote...

Add to that that the templar dispel
magic is extremely useful (gets rid of those hexes, thank you), and I
for one was extremely satisfied with the Tempalr talents (again, not
the least reason is that it lets my mage focus on other things).

Cleanse Area never gets rid of any debuffs for me. I wonder if I'm jinxed. Cleanse not working on party debuffs, Arrow of Slaying always missing yet drawing aggro without fail, Death Blow not working ... yet lots of people praise all these talents as great investments.

[Dark83]

Arrow of Slaying is teh awesomes!

[Nooneyouknow13]

Korva wrote...

DM Veil wrote...

Having a targetable aoe stun as a warrior is pretty handy I think, but that's just me.

It is handy, and I use and like it for that purpose. But it isn't the mage-killer I was expecting.

Itkovian wrote...

Add to that that the templar dispel
magic is extremely useful (gets rid of those hexes, thank you), and I
for one was extremely satisfied with the Tempalr talents (again, not
the least reason is that it lets my mage focus on other things).

Cleanse Area never gets rid of any debuffs for me. I wonder if I'm jinxed. Cleanse not working on party debuffs, Arrow of Slaying always missing yet drawing aggro without fail, Death Blow not working ... yet lots of people praise all these talents as great investments.

The Templar dispel just flat out does not hit the casting Templar.  On the other hand, they work great in pairs.

Templars destroy mages simply because of: Knight Commander's Armor+Spellward+dual wield and Dweomer runes.   Hi, the templar is now magic immune(other than the freeze from Cone of Cold, that has to be a bug), and destroys mana with melee attacks.

[Itkovian]

As for cleanse aura, that might be it (not working on self, but since I have 2 templars I probably didn't notice). However, Holy Smite is great by itself, no need for uber armour or spellward or anything of the sort.

If I spot a mage, I smite it. Then I have my templar (one or the other) run up to him and slaughter him before it can do any harm (if it comes out of stun, I have plenty of talents to stun again or knockdown, and by then the mage is dead - and I do not use 2-weapon combat).

Put it simply, Holy Smite shuts mages down. That's what a warrior needs. Use it wisely, and you can stop the mage from doing anything before it dies.

Given this, I have no difficulty in seeing why Templars are terrifying to mages (especially since they hunt mages in groups), and I certainly find them useful in the game.

Itkovian

[MANoob]

Had no problem beating the crap out of the templars in the mage tower when soloing nightmare as a mage.But thats not the point.

Cleanse aura is awfull, it dispels all useful buffs from your party, while enemies rarely use dangerous buffs. If youre soloing then it wont dispel debuffs from you (although I dont think its possible to solo as a warrior).

Mana drain from melee attacks is next to nonexistent, a mage is more likely to die from hits than run out of mana.

Holy smite deals crap damage and is resisted by yellow and orange mages on nightmare with ease, because the difficulty of the check is based on templar's willpower. I lol at it when I instantly anihilate a whole room of abominations, blood mages, demons and shades with my mana clash.

[Midgetface]

 Guys, I was checking the code and found something interesting:


            // if hostile            if (IsObjectHostile(stEvent.oCaster, oTarget) == TRUE)            {                float fDamage = (100.0f + GetAttributeModifier(stEvent.oCaster, PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_WILLPOWER)) * HOLY_SMITE_BASE_DAMAGE_FACTOR;

It goes on and on using WILL as a source for the damage, I think. I just fixed my files so it scales with Strength instead. I'll test it up and I'll tell you if it's working - and then I guess I'll post the mod or whatever?

[Darpaek]

From a lore perspective I get the impression that your "average" Templar vs your "average" Mage isn't even in a head-to-head fight. That's why the Chantry has an army and the Mages have a handful of dudes locked in a Tower. The Templars rig the rules so they outnumber Mages when forced into confrontations. It's like the Germans had a better army in WWII, but the Soviets zerg-rushed. Imba Mages kinda suck for game balance, but they make sense with the lore (there's an entire religion based around the sin of Magic and the wickedness of Magocracy).



That being said, there's a certain 4 Mage (2 yellow) battle that I did relatively early in my first playthru where I got stomped. My second playthru I did the same battle near the endgame (with Smite) and it was considerably easier.

[Osprey39]

Seclus wrote...

so basicly with what your saying a templar with a will power of 30 could do 33.6 spirit damage 48 mana drain and an additional 48 damage as all mana drain is converted to health damage as well. so final tally of damage in done would be.... 81.6 health damage and 48 mana reduction. sounds like a solid amount of damage in one shot.

Against a PC mage or one in your party, yeah, that's not bad (although for the stamina cost it's pretty iffy.)  NPC mages seem to have a lot more health though.  For me, it's the stun allowing me to close the distance that makes it useful.  The damage seems pretty negligible.

[Blue_dodo]

the additional damage is scaled on the amount of mana lost, however there is a save to that.



try using templar reaver buile it's fun

[slikster]

There is no save for the additional damage, the only save is for stun/knockdown. Plus, damage is no where near the 80s, it's 40+0.4/WillMod spirit damage total.

[MadCat221]

Midgetface wrote...

 Guys, I was checking the code and found something interesting:


            // if hostile            if (IsObjectHostile(stEvent.oCaster, oTarget) == TRUE)            {                float fDamage = (100.0f + GetAttributeModifier(stEvent.oCaster, PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_WILLPOWER)) * HOLY_SMITE_BASE_DAMAGE_FACTOR;

It goes on and on using WILL as a source for the damage, I think. I just fixed my files so it scales with Strength instead. I'll test it up and I'll tell you if it's working - and then I guess I'll post the mod or whatever?

Yes, please. Could a fix that makes Cleanse Aura nix out debuffs be done too?   I got it because I wanted to keep mages from casting this weird effect that drains health and prevents healing.  Cleanse Aura did nothing, but Mana Cleanse nixed it.  Another case of a Templar ability not doing what it advertised.  Nothing about not working against debuffs is listed in its description.


EDIT: Maybe instead of switching from WIL to STR, you could amplify the effect that WIL has on it?

Modifié par MadCat221, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:17 .

[slikster]

I've added a Smite tweak:

http://social.bioware.com/project/910/

Description:
What this Mod does is tweak the effect Willpower has on Holy Smite. Characters with low willpower will do less damage than original, but investing points in willpower will have a more positive effect. Willpower at 20 will do exactly the same damage as the original game.

The original game gives 0.4 spirit and mana damage per willpower point, this tweak gives 0.8. Half that against non mages.

This a simple tweak to try out and see how it effects your game, no playtesting has gone into this. Feedback welcome.

Copy talent_aoe_instant.ncs to packages\\core\\override to install.

Spirit and Mana Damage against Mages:

WM VD	TD
 0		40	36
10		44	44
20		48	52
30		52	60
etc.

Spirit Damage against everything else:

WM VD	TD
 0		20	18
10		22	22
20		24	26
30		26	30
etc.

Key:
WM - Willpower modifier=Willpower-10
VD - Damage from Vanilla Holy Smite
TD - Damage from tweaked Holy Smite

Modifié par slikster, 24 novembre 2009 - 01:39 .