2124 réponses à ce sujet

[BrennaCeDria]

motomotogirl wrote...

Firky wrote...

Of course, I also turned him into a woman. Across the game of Origins, I think he would have become a really vulnerable character. But, in short story mode, with so little time for development, I gave him a sex change in order to make him appear more vulnerable in a short space of time.

(Does that sounds as horrendously sexist to you as it does to me? I'm ashamed of myself. Nonetheless, I think it worked heaps better. And I made a lot of things happen to "her" at Ostagar rather than just a meeting.)

It does, actually lol I blinked for a second, but I realize there's a lot of sexism out there, and definitely on this forum, too.  Surely you don't mean physically or mentally vulnerable.  In what way did you mean she is more vulnerable than a male version of herself?  If she is essentially the same person, how does the gender swap change her so fundamentally?  I can only think that circumstances in the narrative must have changed.  But then, even if, for example, she is sexually assaulted as a woman (and thus made "vulnerable") that doesn't mean that as a man he'd be anymore capable of both fending off those attacks or recovering from that.  

I see where it could be taken as sexist, but my first thought when I read it was more that regardless of the character's actual personality and ability, it was a reflection of how other characters viewed the main.

[ColorMeSuprised]

I guess it's about men thinking that woman are less able to survive under certain circumstances and are more helpless and fragil when faced with violence. And to achive this image he turned his main character into a female to convey this easier to the readers.

There is nothing sexiest about manipulating the readers and using their own prejudices or attitudes against them, IMO. It's creative writing.  Just like artists who make their picture brighter at the most important place they want the viewers to see first, since the human eye first notices bright spots and then moves on to darker places.

I once wrote a story, third person narrator from the main chara POV, about a girl who was bullied in her school. The reader trusts the narrator and believes him. I let her use sentences like "Certainly, it was just an accident" when a ball hit her, to underline that she doesn't want to think she was being bullied eventhough from the readers point of view and the few scenes the reader could glimps at she was and she actually really believed it. She told in her mind, that her father had sexually abused her and the readers believe that. In the end it turned out that she was mentally ill and really wasn't bullied and her father never touched her. What a suprise for the reader that he couldn't even trust the narrator. In that case I used the trust of the reader in the narrator against them.

The same goes for the "First cry, you win" matter. If you see two people on the street. One crying, the other angry you are more likely to think that the crying one is the victim. It's all about psychology. And it's not sexist or manipulativ or wrong to go out and use that against readers.

Modifié par ColorMeSuprised, 15 janvier 2012 - 07:11 .

[Firky]

PS. (I'm a woman myself, I should have said that, sorry, despite my avatar. I just most recently played at Male Hawke.)

I think it is about psychology. Although I pictured the character as a man, for a long time with the toolset, and I think it worked like that, I was just trying to pull out every trick in the book with only 2500 words.

I know that men can be as vulnerable as women, but finding a woman alone in the forest, as is what now happens to this character, just seems to have a more obvious, frightening impact, during a quick impression I guess.

[CuriousArtemis]

Firky wrote...

I know that men can be as vulnerable as women, but finding a woman alone in the forest, as is what now happens to this character, just seems to have a more obvious, frightening impact, during a quick impression I guess.

Okay, so I think what you were doing here is playing on the fears and preconceptions of the reader (as some suggested) rather than insinuating in an authorial manner that a woman is LITERALLY more vulnerable when alone in the forest than a man.  And, of course, I don't mean just any man, but a literal male version of herself.

Certainly, as a reader, if I read of a woman alone in a forest, I project my own fears onto that situation, and it would be more frightening/concerning than if the character were a man.

But even Dragon Age has taught us that a person is not vulnerable simply on account of his or her gender; imagine Aveline or Isabela or Morrigan alone in the forest.  Pity the one who tries to attack THEM!

[Raenemon]

motomotogirl wrote...

Firky wrote...

I know that men can be as vulnerable as women, but finding a woman alone in the forest, as is what now happens to this character, just seems to have a more obvious, frightening impact, during a quick impression I guess.

Okay, so I think what you were doing here is playing on the fears and preconceptions of the reader (as some suggested) rather than insinuating in an authorial manner that a woman is LITERALLY more vulnerable when alone in the forest than a man.  And, of course, I don't mean just any man, but a literal male version of herself.

Certainly, as a reader, if I read of a woman alone in a forest, I project my own fears onto that situation, and it would be more frightening/concerning than if the character were a man.

But even Dragon Age has taught us that a person is not vulnerable simply on account of his or her gender; imagine Aveline or Isabela or Morrigan alone in the forest.  Pity the one who tries to attack THEM!

Well said

[K.L.Bryan]

 Its hard to believe it's only been a week since I sent in my entry.  It feels like a lot longer.

I had fun reading about Antiva (where my story is set) and picking possible locations in Tevinter for my main character Erinna to travel too.  I became very attached to the Inn I created for Erinna to work in.  <3 I think the Bard's Seduction will show up in many more of my stories.  I ended my story on a cliffhanger, and the strange thing is, I want to know what happens next even though I'm the writer.   Erinna took on a life o her own.  I think I will be writing more of her exploits in the future.

[OatsMalone1]

motomotogirl wrote...

Firky wrote...

I know that men can be as vulnerable as women, but finding a woman alone in the forest, as is what now happens to this character, just seems to have a more obvious, frightening impact, during a quick impression I guess.

Okay, so I think what you were doing here is playing on the fears and preconceptions of the reader (as some suggested) rather than insinuating in an authorial manner that a woman is LITERALLY more vulnerable when alone in the forest than a man.  And, of course, I don't mean just any man, but a literal male version of herself.

Certainly, as a reader, if I read of a woman alone in a forest, I project my own fears onto that situation, and it would be more frightening/concerning than if the character were a man.

But even Dragon Age has taught us that a person is not vulnerable simply on account of his or her gender; imagine Aveline or Isabela or Morrigan alone in the forest.  Pity the one who tries to attack THEM!

Regardless of motive, by playing on a presumed reader's assumptions of gender  capability, one reinforces the stereotype. So if the question is whether or not changing the gender of the character to convey a specific trait is sexist, the answer is yes. It doesn't ultimately matter what you, as a writer, think; that doesn't come across in the text. Making such a shift because society assigns certain traits to a gender is relying on stereotypes of the sexes, and utilization of those assumptions is, by definition, sexist.

Does that make you culpable in any grand sense? Hardly. But it might avoid an opportunity to challenge a reader's assumptions and potentially tell a more interesting story. After all, the sensation of vulnerability won't ultimately be generated by a character's gender; it will be conveyed through the quality of the writing.

[Faerloch]

Women.

[BrennaCeDria]

‘You have come far, good templar,’ purred the young woman, exotic and dark in her beauty. ‘And it is time that you should rest.’
'I will rest only when the Witch of the Wild has been killed,’ said the templar, ‘Tell me where she is!’ The templar pointed his sword at the young woman, who smiled warmly as the templar felt a knife enter his back.
‘I am myth, and warning, and the thief of souls,’ whispered his killer. ‘I am all those things you heard of me, and I was all those people with whom you spoke.’ And the templar doubled over and fell to his knees, turning to face the voice and finding but a blur.
‘And I am the last thing you will never see.’
The templar’s quest ended there, at the feet of the Witch and her dark daughter. Ever since, all have known never to ask after the Witch of the Wilds, never to seek the one named Flemeth, lest they find her.”

http://social.biowar...dex.php/Flemeth 

Seems to me like the "helpless woman in the woods" has been explored quite sufficiently in one short little codex entry, showing both a successful use of the stereotype itself, and how foolish that stereotype can be.

Modifié par BrennaCeDria, 16 janvier 2012 - 02:18 .

[CuriousArtemis]

BrennaCeDria wrote...

Seems to me like the "helpless woman in the woods" has been explored quite sufficiently in one short little codex entry, showing both a successful use of the stereotype itself, and how foolish that stereotype can be.

Wow, that story really reminds me of La Belle dame sans merci!! 

[The Sarendoctrinator]

K.L.Bryan wrote...

I ended my story on a cliffhanger, and the strange thing is, I want to know what happens next even though I'm the writer.  

This happens for a lot of writers, actually. I'm the same way. My main character has an entire past planned out for him, and a currently vague plan for his future. After we put so much time into creating them, of course we want to know where they're going when the story's over.

[Arkatera]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

K.L.Bryan wrote...

I ended my story on a cliffhanger, and the strange thing is, I want to know what happens next even though I'm the writer.  

This happens for a lot of writers, actually. I'm the same way. My main character has an entire past planned out for him, and a currently vague plan for his future. After we put so much time into creating them, of course we want to know where they're going when the story's over.

Ditto! Mine ended on a cliffhanger/teaser of a possible continuation. It totally makes me want to sit and write for hours. But, sometimes characters write themselves, and even the writer can be surprised upon examination of a character once more; several times, I've found myself re-writing a section because I've projected me on a character instead of using the character's planned personality set.

[K.L.Bryan]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

K.L.Bryan wrote...

I ended my story on a cliffhanger, and the strange thing is, I want to know what happens next even though I'm the writer.  

This happens for a lot of writers, actually. I'm the same way. My main character has an entire past planned out for him, and a currently vague plan for his future. After we put so much time into creating them, of course we want to know where they're going when the story's over.

The last I saw of Erinna, she was fleeing down an escape passage with a group of Tevinter Magisters after agreeing to join the Mage Revolution.   Who knows what she'll get up to when I write her next chapter . . .  

[JoeLaTurkey]

*Looks at his entry again, slaps self in the face*

[BrennaCeDria]

motomotogirl wrote...

BrennaCeDria wrote...

Seems to me like the "helpless woman in the woods" has been explored quite sufficiently in one short little codex entry, showing both a successful use of the stereotype itself, and how foolish that stereotype can be.

Wow, that story really reminds me of La Belle dame sans merci!! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

That's actually straight from Flemeth's codex that I linked, but I love that little bit of lore for the character sooooo much. I have a habit of using quotes, Chant verses, etc as headers to most chapters in my main fic, and Flemeth's own line after stabbing the templar is the opening to my first chapter following Ostagar.

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

K.L.Bryan wrote...

I ended my story on a cliffhanger, and the strange thing is, I want to know what happens next even though I'm the writer.  

This happens for a lot of writers, actually. I'm the same way. My main character has an entire past planned out for him, and a currently vague plan for his future. After we put so much time into creating them, of course we want to know where they're going when the story's over.

I can guess where my Vrania from the story for this contest ends up, but I deliberately left it open regardless. I'd be kind of interested in exploring her further, but I don't know that she'd hold up as well in expanded stories as she does in this one-shot.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I kind of left my ending open on purpose too. If anyone is curious, the sample I posted in the abstract thread is the last paragraph of my story, where my main character decides that he wants to join the mage/templar war.

@Arkatera: That's happened to me too, being surprised by characters. In my case, it wasn't projecting my feelings into the character - it was just something I planned for them to do and then realized that another option makes more sense for them. I was lucky enough to have an easy time writing my main character for this story though. I've had his personality in mind for a long time, and was playing a Warden version of him through DAO a few months ago, so I know him very well.

[BrennaCeDria]

TBH, I completely intended to write an original mage Warden on their Calling, but Vrania popped up out of no where and demanded otherwise.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

When I first saw news of this contest (in the middle of the night/early morning on Christmas), I knew right away who my main character was and which story I would tell. There was never any doubt. It had to be about Kane.

[Queenychi]

JoeLaTurkey wrote...

*Looks at his entry again, slaps self in the face*

Ha. I'm feeling the same way about mine. 
I chalk it up to a learning experience.

[Arkatera]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

When I first saw news of this contest (in the middle of the night/early morning on Christmas), I knew right away who my main character was and which story I would tell. There was never any doubt. It had to be about Kane.

I know exactly how you felt/feel! When I first read about it, I was envisioning my mage character and the outline in my head of a story I had dreamt out when I had played about half through Dragon Age II. And it just flowed like mind vomit from there.

[Firky]

OatsMalone1 wrote...

Does that make you culpable in any grand sense? Hardly. But it might avoid an opportunity to challenge a reader's assumptions and potentially tell a more interesting story. After all, the sensation of vulnerability won't ultimately be generated by a character's gender; it will be conveyed through the quality of the writing.

I do tend to agree that giving a character a sex change for the purpose of playing up to stereotypes is on the sexist side. (I did say that I was ashamed of doing it, after all.)

But, ultimately, I'm happy with how it improved a 2500 word story. It's hard to describe without actually forcing everyone in the thread to read it. (And it's really not that worthy.)

It's not a story about whether people are equally as vulnerable when they are lost in the forest. It's a story about whether or not The Tranquil are vulnerable, and how/why. My abandoned male modded version was vulnerable but also many other things. I needed to pick one aspect of the character to run with.

Still, I'm interested to hear what others think. I'm not willing to defend poor old Pinch's sex change to the hilt. I agree most with the "missed opportunity" idea, but not every story needs to be an opportunity to challenge sexism. Some do, others are about a different issue.

[TEWR]

JoeLaTurkey wrote...

*Looks at his entry again, slaps self in the face*

same. I'm kinda afraid that Bioware read mine and just went "What the..." and threw it away.

Obviously they wouldn't do that -- or at least I hope they wouldn't -- but I don't think mine's good enough to get that far in the competition, even though a few people have already read it in PMs and told me it was good.

I think the editing process did kinda damage how interesting the story I thought up was, but I wasn't going to abandon that story and try to think up a new one.

[guitarbard]

JoeLaTurkey wrote...

*Looks at his entry again, slaps self in the face*

Seconded/did the same.  Apparently we're all our own worst critics, though, or so the saying goes. I think. *shrug*

Modifié par AndrastesGrace, 16 janvier 2012 - 05:50 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Firky, while I personally do try to keep in mind what my writing is saying about big, overarching issues like sexism, LGBT issues, etc., I know not all writers feel the same.

Also, hope you don't feel like people are attacking you (at least not me!); I only felt intrigued enough by your original comment to respond And hey we got a fun conversation out of it!

Upon first seeing the prompt ... I'm the same as some of you; I knew immediately what I write! You can even see my comment earlier in this thread I saw the final scene in my head and knew I'd be writing up to that scene.

Like some of you guys, I also think I don't have a chance. I didn't do any research on lore or anything. The story relies more on the feel of Thedas and the games ... and (again) overarching themes, like what it means and feels to be poor or marginalized because of your race, sexuality, etc. (I sometimes think of mages as fantasy equivalents of LGBTQ peoples; they are simply born as they are, and yet tormented for it).

So everyone talking about all the codices they researched and scenes they replayed for purposes of clarity are making me hang my head in shame LOL

[t3hTwinky]

Firky wrote...

It's not a story about whether people are equally as vulnerable when they are lost in the forest. It's a story about whether or not The Tranquil are vulnerable, and how/why. My abandoned male modded version was vulnerable but also many other things. I needed to pick one aspect of the character to run with.

Still, I'm interested to hear what others think. I'm not willing to defend poor old Pinch's sex change to the hilt. I agree most with the "missed opportunity" idea, but not every story needs to be an opportunity to challenge sexism. Some do, others are about a different issue.

If you decided that your main character would be a woman so that there would be more tension in the story, then the fact that this character is a woman should be acknowledged in some way. Like the old rule of how you're not supposed to specifically mention some random detail but never never have it amount to anything.

So imo it's good as long as that decision is part of the story in a meaningful way.