94 réponses à ce sujet

[Eddo36]

http://madartlab.com...-and-lady-bits/

Written by an actual armourer, I suggest that it is the way it should be for female armour. It covers the whole issue (females in media and their clothing) at depth.

Modifié par Eddo36, 20 décembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[Wulfram]

I think DA2 must score pretty highly on sensible female armour. No boobplate for heavy armour, no exposed cleavage or mid-riff for lighter armour

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 décembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[Stanley Woo]

That's a great article. I'm glad that most of the BioWare stuff was stuff the author found as "good" examples of female armour, while only one was used as a "bad" example. Oh, Aribeth...

[Orian Tabris]

I found this very interesting! I hope BioWare sees this, and considers what Ryan has said. Especially considering some of the picture examples are of their own work. 2 Neverwinter Nights and 3 Mass Effect pics. It compliments them, giving them possible constructive feedback on their characters/character designs.

[andar91]

Good article, though I defend Aribeth. Her armor was not that bad. It had a little bit of sex appeal but it was no where near as bad as some of the other armors out there.

[Eddo36]

Here is a little more of it-
madartlab.com/2011/12/20/fantasy-armor-errata/

Modifié par Eddo36, 20 décembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[Forst1999]

Read this one earlier today. Very interesting. I like that this is not just the typical "I know how armor works, do it exactly right or you FAIL", but that he actually considers the importance of style. He gives recommendations on how to bring style and realism together.
He doesn't even give Aribeth as a "bad example" per se, he just points out that her armor was unnecessary, as her face gave her enough "feminity, sexiness and appeal".

[Plaintiff]

Seems to me like Bioware already adheres to this. Not much to say, really.

[Eddo36]

Plaintiff wrote...

Seems to me like Bioware already adheres to this. Not much to say, really.

That article has a character from NWN as a bad example.

[BillsVengenace]

Aribeth's armour is nowhere near as bad as the "armour" female characters in ME2 and DA2 wear.

[Eddo36]

By "bad", I just meant oversexualized and not practical for protection.

[Finnian Valko]

Eddo36 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Seems to me like Bioware already adheres to this. Not much to say, really.

That article has a character from NWN as a bad example.

True, but as far as Dragon Age goes the female armor is fairly realistic and believable. Most of the female armor Hawke can wear is just the male armor molded to fit the female form, which makes sense. As for NPCs, well, Meredith wears proper armor, as does Aveline. In fact the only female characters who don't usually wear armor are the rogues (Isabella) and mages (Merrill), which seems more class based as male characters of those classes don't wear armor either.

[Maria Caliban]

Unwrapped Christmas presents aren’t exciting

Yes, a woman's body is simply a Christmas present and clothing is just wrapping paper for a man to tear off. If that wrapping is already tampered with, that means someone else has messed with your present!

Therefore, women in fantasy should wear more clothing because my delicate male ego wants only virginal Christmas presents.

[Ghost_Nappa]

Oh thank you for setting up a working link. Ive tried looking for this all week.

[caradoc2000]

Eddo36 wrote...

It covers the whole issue...

Heh, the problem people seem to have with female armor is that it doesn't cover the whole issue

[Rawgrim]

I am sure those armours are more effective than Isabela`s shirt.

[Plaintiff]

Eddo36 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Seems to me like Bioware already adheres to this. Not much to say, really.

That article has a character from NWN as a bad example.

Holy crap! Bioware created a scantily-clad female almost a whole decade ago?! Those misogynist, drooling beasts should be marched out into the town square and shot like the dogs they are!

I'm sorry, I assumed this discussion was going to be about current, relevent games. My bad.

[Plaintiff]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Unwrapped Christmas presents aren’t exciting

Yes, a woman's body is simply a Christmas present and clothing is just wrapping paper for a man to tear off. If that wrapping is already tampered with, that means someone else has messed with your present!

Therefore, women in fantasy should wear more clothing because my delicate male ego wants only virginal Christmas presents.

For what it's worth, I always peek at my Christmas presents, but I'm still excited to get them.

[Fast Jimmy]

While not directly in relation to women's armor, I think the comment about how Sauron could not lift his arms without his pauldrons gouging out his eyes could VERY easily apply to Fenris.

While not as bad, it still irks me. Pointy armor is neither practical nor cool looking, in my humblest of opinions on the matter.

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Holy crap! Bioware created a scantily-clad female almost a whole decade ago?! Those misogynist, drooling beasts should be marched out into the town square and shot like the dogs they are!

I'm sorry, I assumed this discussion was going to be about current, relevent games. My bad.

Okay... Isabella? How does she go from a captain clad in realistic leather armor during combat in DAO to wearing a blouse and a mini skirt (not mention adding about three cups sizes... didn't know they had THAT kind of magic in Thedas) during even more rigorous combat?

I'm not crying "sexist" by any means, but it is fanboy service, pure and simple. And not in the least bit battle-practical.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Holy crap! Bioware created a scantily-clad female almost a whole decade ago?! Those misogynist, drooling beasts should be marched out into the town square and shot like the dogs they are!

I'm sorry, I assumed this discussion was going to be about current, relevent games. My bad.

Okay... Isabella? How does she go from a captain clad in realistic leather armor during combat in DAO to wearing a blouse and a mini skirt (not mention adding about three cups sizes... didn't know they had THAT kind of magic in Thedas) during even more rigorous combat?

I'm not crying "sexist" by any means, but it is fanboy service, pure and simple. And not in the least bit battle-practical.

Isabela's a pirate. Combat isn't her primary concern, being able to move freely on a ship is. Her typical battleground is a tavern, and when she does fight, her style favours mobility and speed over strength or defense. Her whole strategy as a duelist (note that the term implies that she typically only faces one opponent at a time) relies on getting the first hit in and not letting the enemy touch her in the first place.

Her clothes might not make sense if she was a soldier or a mercenary, but she's not. She's a sailor and a thief. If it weren't for Hawke, she'd likely be fleeing from armed conflict most of the time. Why do we assume Isabela is 'practical', anyway? It seems to me that she favours showmanship above other concerns.

As for her look in Origins, that's dismissable, frankly. There's only like, 10 different kinds of equipment in that game, and being a bit player with no unique deisgn aspects at all, her options were either light armor or a floor-length dress.

I'm not against Isabela covering up more, I really couldn't care less. I won't argue that she's intended to be sexy, but I'll say that it makes sense for character, if not necessarily for how she chooses to spend her free time. If we're going to nitpick about her, then other characters deserve at least an equal amount of scrutiny. They may show less skin, but Varric, Merril, Anders and Carver (at least in Act 1) are all dressed in a similarly 'impractical' fashion.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:52 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Her clothes might not make sense if she was a soldier or a mercenary, but she's not. She's a sailor and a thief. If it weren't for Hawke, she'd likely be fleeing from armed conflict most of the time. Why do we assume Isabela is 'practical', anyway? It seems to me that she favours showmanship above other concerns.

Because she has survived more than a decade? You don't hang out in seedy taverns with cut throat pirates who want to slip a knife in your back and live to talk about it if you don't at least SOMETHING covering said back. Or backside.

As for her look in Origins, that's dismissable, frankly. There's only like, 10 different kinds of equipment in that game, and being a bit player with no unique deisgn aspects at all, her options were either light armor or a floor-length dress.

True, its dismissable as a unique armor. After all, they took Flemeth, who WAS dressed in a floor-length dress, and changed her into pointy-sharp-armor. And that certainly wasn't going for "cool" or fanboy service... was it?

I'm not against Isabela covering up more, I really couldn't care less. But the way she dresses now makes sense for character, if not necessarily for how she chooses to spend her free time.

She dressed pretty suggestively in DAO, to be honest. Leather skirt that came up to her upper thigh and low neckline that showed plenty of bodice. I don't have problem with her, as a sexually loose character, revealing skin. But at least attempt to have the skin that's NOT showing offer some form of protection outside of IMPENETRABLE cotton. I mean, you could realistically take a hit in DAO and not die. Not in any kind of level that you took hits or arrows, but hey... it was plausible. Isabella in DA2? Not even a little.

If we're going to nitpick about her, then other characters deserve at least an equal amount of scrutiny. They may show less skin, but Varric, Merril, Anders and Carver (at least in Act 1) are all dressed in a similarly 'impractical' fashion.

Pointing out unrealistic flaws in character armor does not negate unrealistic flaws in character armor, regardless of who is wearing it.

Again, I'm not against Isabella being scantily clad. But its hardly practical to have the little armor there be not even armor at all, but regular clothes. And the above pat on the back by Bioware seems to be overlooking this fact.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 décembre 2011 - 02:01 .

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Pointing out unrealistic flaws in character armor does not negate unrealistic flaws in character armor, regardless of who is wearing it.

But you didn't bring any of them up. In fact, nobody ever does. Isabela's breasts may be covered by a thin veneer of cotton, but Varric's ample chest doesn't even have that and nobody complains.

Isabela is the only one who cops flak for her revealing attire. Nobody cares about Carver or Aveline's early tank tops, even though they are soldiers, and have been "running since Ostagar". Nobody complains about mages wearing cloth robes in battle, despite the abundant stupidity of the concept, because it's a fantasy standard.

I think it's extremely pertinent to the discussion that nobody acknowledges this double standard. The practicality of Isabela's clothing is on par with about half the party members (who may be more covered, but only in light material that offers no protection at all, and thus can be discounted). The fact that people focus exclusively on Isabela and not the equally impractical dress of the other party members shows that practicality is not the real issue here. What it might be, I cannot say, but practicality it ain't.

The article linked to in the OP says that it's essentially 'okay' for characters like Conan the Barbarian to walk around in nothing but a loincloth and half a gallon of baby oil, because they aren't supposed to be armored, and that's a legitimate aspect of the character. If Isabela isn't supposed to be armored (and I'd argue that she isn't), then arguments about her lack of armor are null and moot.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 décembre 2011 - 02:28 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree with your point, but the title of the post was female armors. And then you made the comment that Bioware made a scantily clad female ten years ago, OMG, implying that Bioware can't possibly be faulted for doing something a decade ago when they, in fact, did it again just nine months ago.

If anything, your own comments are an argument against character-specific armor. Or, at least, pro-practical armor. And practical armor is all too often fairly standard looking, unless you add spikes or feathers or other combat-impractical touches.

So if you're saying we should go back to DAO style where everyone should be wearing full plate male, I agree. Just have an invisible helmet feature again, like they had in DA2, and I would be fine.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 décembre 2011 - 02:29 .

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I agree with your point, but the title of the post was female armors. And then you made the comment that Bioware made a scantily clad female ten years ago, OMG, implying that Bioware can't possibly be faulted for doing something a decade ago when they, in fact, did it again just nine months ago.

If anything, your own comments are an argument against character-specific armor. Or, at least, pro-practical armor. And practical armor is all too often fairly standard looking, unless you add spikes or feathers or other combat-impractical touches.

So if you're saying we should go back to DAO style where everyone should be wearing full plate male, I agree. Just have an invisible helmet feature again, like they had in DA2, and I would be fine.

I don't really care either way. When I'm playing a fantasy game, 'practicality' isn't exactly a major concern.

My argument was not that we should get rid of character-specific armors (I actually enjoyed that each party member has a unique look and certainly would not want to return to the bland, extremely limited options that Origins provided), I was simply pointing out that focussing soley on female armor is itself hypocritical.

I have no problem with Carver's muscle-t or Varric's exposed chest, just as I have no problem with Isabela's outfit per se. I wouldn't be opposed to more options either. What I personally would like is a wider variety of character-specific armors, so that I have the freedom to customise their look (within a given range) while still maintaining a unique appearace.

Practicality is all well and good, but what I support, ultimately, is more options, and yes, that includes the impractical stuff. Maybe one day I'll have the urge to strip my character down to his smallclothes and slather him in baby oil. And when that day comes, I'm going to pick up the game that allows me to do that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 décembre 2011 - 02:53 .