230 réponses à ce sujet

[chatters1994]

I really hope bioware's writers do not make the same mistake as they did with Jack in ME2.

Jack was actually a weak character, because she succumbed to hating everyone and everything including herself, and was a violent sociopath, but all you really saw from that (unless you explored her character a bit more) was a boring "I can kick anyone's ass because I'm female and have a traumatic experience" type character.

In my opinion, strong characters are those who don't lose their humanity or compassion, despite the odds and the bleak circumstances they find themselves in.  A real life example is Jack Thompson Jr, an army helicopter gunner who threatened to open fire on his own men if they continued executing civilians willy-nilly in the My Lai massacre.
He stood between his own men and vietnamese civilians he did not know, and risked imprisonment as a traitor, if not his immidiate life in doing so.

Take examples like that bioware, because I'd love to see such characters in games.

If you want a strong female character, I recommend you don't use the "kill bill" type, because it isn't really strength exhibited, but just a callus disregard for life I'd find repulsive in anyone in real life or fiction.

I know this isn't that coherent, but in summary I wish Bioware would stop pandering to the tired and overused childhood trauma/badass heroine archetype.

If you read that all you deserve a pat on the back =P

[Bekkael]

*accepts pat on back*

Jack was a difficult character, but I thought she was well done. I've known people like her IRL, and that type of reaction to abuse is not unrealistic. Plus, I believe Jack's character will have some progression in ME3 from what she was like in ME2. I'm actually really excited to see how she has been written.

[chatters1994]

jreezy wrote...

Jack weak? I disagree.

I didn't mean weak, I meant weakly written.  It's so easy to have what I'd call the Kill Bill archetype, the avenging female who was abused at some point, and gains the ability to slay all, because marketing wants to appeal to critics rewarding "female empowerment" at its most shallow.

[JeffZero]

"Strong Females"

Yes.

[chatters1994]

sure, but I think the character was rather cynically designed, with the intention being a character that would fill the easily written role of "badass heroine" like in the film kickass, if the character had been male, It would not have made nearly as much impact. I think it's easy writing to appease loose notions of "strong women" in media. A strong woman to me is one who acknowledges her shortcomings, one that works around them or flat out overcomes them, and who retains her moral compass in the face of anything.

[Bekkael]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

You're totally wrong about Jack. If you even do her loyalty mission, it's clear to see that she isn't over it, that she's become full of hatred because of what happened to her. And she questions it. When she's got that guy down on the floor, she asks if it will really fix things.

My favorite line is when she says "One minute I'm a p*ssed of b*tch, the next I'm a little girl again...sh*t, it's complicated."

So true.

That is an excellent line, but also when she is panicking before landing and Shepard has to calm her down. I wanted to be able to give her a hug. She seemed very realistic to me, but perhaps that perception is different for some, based on their own experience.

[chatters1994]

well, I used to have cigarettes put out on me during my school years, because I wasn't white enough. I haven't become hate filled because of it, I have instead started feeling sorry for those who did it. To me that's stronger than letting it get the better of you and allowing yourself to become a mess due to the actions of others. I know it pales in comparison to what jack faced in the plot, but still.

[1136342t54_]

chatters1994 wrote...

sure, but I think the character was rather cynically designed, with the intention being a character that would fill the easily written role of "badass heroine" like in the film kickass, if the character had been male, It would not have made nearly as much impact. I think it's easy writing to appease loose notions of "strong women" in media. A strong woman to me is one who acknowledges her shortcomings, one that works around them or flat out overcomes them, and who retains her moral compass in the face of anything.

So your complaining about the fact that Jack is a weak character? Even though throughout the game we know as a child she was constantly tortured and isolated from the world and even tested on many times. Someone who barely survived that emotionally and only sees the world now as a result as a kill or be killed. Everyone is an enemy to her out to use her and she does not want to be used like that again.

Jack mentally may seem weak because of all the trauma she has went throughout her whole life (especially as a kid) that would have broken most people. Jack isn't broken but she isn't whole neither. Jack fills the roll of a badass sure but if that is all you can see then you have not been playing the game.

Edit: Your definition of a strong woman is all well and good but its very easy for you to say that but to assume Jack will automatically get by all the **** that has happened to her so easily is well. Not necessarily stupid but not very bright when considering that most people are unlikely to get through what Jack went through sane and well. Jack didn't come out sane.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 21 décembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Icinix]

Jack was my favourite character from ME2.

I get what you're saying, but the reasons that made her a weak character for you, made her a strong one for me.

Its more of an anti-hero style strength, but that vulnerability you only saw if you followed a certain path makes her a hell of a lot more interesting than a lot of other characters in ME2.

The character you want, is basically a paragon shepard. Since that role is already taken, they need other personality types to balance it out. Jack is a balancing personality.

[Bekkael]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

I wanted to be able to give her a hug.

We need to be able to give out more hugs in ME. I loved the two times we got to paragon-hug in ME2, and more opportunites for them can only be a good thing.

Absolutely. The giving and receiving of comfort is something that is emotionally powerful and very "human" (Quarian? Drell? etc.). I teared up when I hugged Tali. *sniff*

[chatters1994]

It's a bit off topic but I hope in the next game, we're not shoehorned into Paragon and Renegade. Am I the only person who found that they'd make different decisions based on the context? only to be penalized by not having enough brownie/badass points. I really hope they sort that for the next one.

[DiebytheSword]

I have a specific renegon playthrough planned for Jack's LI, that's how weakly written she was. She actually got me to want to know more about her.

Weak indeed.

[Bekkael]

chatters1994 wrote...

It's a bit off topic but I hope in the next game, we're not shoehorned into Paragon and Renegade. Am I the only person who found that they'd make different decisions based on the context? only to be penalized by not having enough brownie/badass points. I really hope they sort that for the next one.

The morality system has been in both ME and ME2. It will certainly be in ME3, since it is a key feature of the series, and one of the things imported saves recognizes. I believe there are ways to hack or exploit paragon/renegade scores on the PC, if you play PC and are so inclined.

[Bekkael]

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

*accepts pat on back*

Jack was a difficult character, but I thought she was well done. I've known people like her IRL, and that type of reaction to abuse is not unrealistic. Plus, I believe Jack's character will have some progression in ME3 from what she was like in ME2. I'm actually really excited to see how she has been written.

She indeed has more progession in ME3

Very good news, indeed. But I expect no less from BioWare writers.

[AdmiralCheez]

Hello, poor interpretation of a character...

Eh, there are enough people in this thread that corrected the OP already.

[chatters1994]

well, there's a lot of interesting opinions on this thread, I hope they have her as more open and trusting in ME3, if you were friendly with her.

[didymos1120]

chatters1994 wrote...

sure, but I think the character was rather cynically designed, with the intention being a character that would fill the easily written role of "badass heroine" like in the film kickass, if the character had been male, It would not have made nearly as much impact. I think it's easy writing to appease loose notions of "strong women" in media. A strong woman to me is one who acknowledges her shortcomings, one that works around them or flat out overcomes them, and who retains her moral compass in the face of anything.

Yeah, I don't think Jack was ever intended to be some sort of Female Empowerment Poster Girl. I think that's you placing her into that mold and then finding her wanting.