230 réponses à ce sujet

[bushes289]

chatters1994 wrote...

well, I used to have cigarettes put out on me during my school years, because I wasn't white enough. I haven't become hate filled because of it, I have instead started feeling sorry for those who did it. To me that's stronger than letting it get the better of you and allowing yourself to become a mess due to the actions of others. I know it pales in comparison to what jack faced in the plot, but still.

So you had bad experiences and didn't react by getting angry and violent, that fine but people rect to situations differently, I was bullied thoughout elementary and highschool, it got to the point where if someone came up behind me and taped me on the shoulder I would whip around with my hand raised ready to hit whoeve it was, once someone sitting next to me (this was a person who had consistently bullied me) took my pencil so I instinctively grabbed it back and stabbed him in the arm hard enough to leave a rather nasty hole, to this day I wish the damage had been more permanent. Also I bet you weren't sorry for those people while they were burning you? how long has it been since those incidents? How much time have you had to move on? You also have to remember that Jack was taken as a baby, she'd been in that facility her whole life and got none of the socialization skills that need to be learned as a child, in fact it's kind of unbelievable she even has a bit of sanity.

The point is people react differently to the same situations, Jack is a strong character but you seem to be mistaking her as some sort of intended female empowerment role model, she is definetely not intended as a role model, sure she's a badass but what's wrong with that? There aren't enough female badass's with the amount of depth and character Jack has imo, besides there are plenty of male badasses with no character depth but no one's complaining about them being weak.

Modifié par bushes289, 21 décembre 2011 - 03:09 .

[slimgrin]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Actually Jack was an extremely well-done character, because she's realistic.

Take it from someone who's dealt with some sh*t: Jack is real.

Jack is real. And immature. I think she was a deliberate attempt to target people in their teens. I know that will seem uppity of me, but that was my impression of her. Her history was well done though.

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 décembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[DiebytheSword]

chatters1994 wrote...

well, there's a lot of interesting opinions on this thread, I hope they have her as more open and trusting in ME3, if you were friendly with her.

You should have gotten from her LM that she desperately wants to be but she can't trust anyone.  I found her less of a badass and more of a mess.  She's a caged animal conditioned to fight, Shepards that persue her freindship should be able to build some trust and show her that not everyone is out to take something away from her.

Having read the leaks, I can say we'll see her develop some, but that's all I'm saying.

[AdmiralCheez]

chatters1994 wrote...

well, there's a lot of interesting opinions on this thread, I hope they have her as more open and trusting in ME3, if you were friendly with her.

She probably will be, just understand that most people aren't open and trusting after a life of abuse.

Jack was cold, confused, violent, and vulgar because that's what she had to be to survive.  She never got the chance to see the brighter side of life, and even if she had, she'd become too cynical to take advantage of it.  With minimal human contact in her life, and hardly any of it positive, her emotional and social growth was stunted.

Being part of the SR-2 crew was the first step in her evolution towards something stronger.  The story of a broken person finding healing is just as powerful as the tale of the person who managed to never be broken in the first place.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 21 décembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[DiebytheSword]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Being part of the SR-2 crew was the first step in her evolution towards something stronger.  The story of a broken person finding healing is just as powerful as the tale of the person who managed to never be broken in the first place.

Very well said.

I was one of the picked on kids in school, and my circle of freinds were also targeted often.  We never even came close to Jack's level of torment, but it wasn't fun.  For myself, it pushed me to contain my rage before I really hurt someone.  I sought out discipline in the martial arts, something my teacher found very curious when she read my questionaire (something they make you fill out before you start learning).  It drove me to great heights, but I can easily see how it might have shattered others, like Columbine's poor kids.  While I would never agree with what Dillon and Kliebold did, I can see why they did it.

Same with Jack.  I would never adopt her worldview, but I get why she is the way she is.  I'd love to see what's in the eye of the hurricane.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 21 décembre 2011 - 03:21 .

[slimgrin]

DiebytheSword wrote...

  I'd love to see what's in the eye of the hurricane.

Actually we saw that. She had selective memory and fabricates much of her angst.

[Asenza]

slimgrin wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

  I'd love to see what's in the eye of the hurricane.

Actually we saw that. She had selective memory and fabricates much of her angst.

From her loyalty mission we learn the exact events the day she broke out weren't clear... from the perspective of a tortured little girl desperate for freedom.

Incorrect and muddled isn't the same as fabrication. The use of that word is more than a little harsh and simply not true given the circumstances.

[Sbri]

chatters1994 wrote...

sure, but I think the character was rather cynically designed, with the intention being a character that would fill the easily written role of "badass heroine" *snip

Jack is in no way a "heroine". I think trying to put her in that light does a disservice to her character.  If one is not ok with putting a member of Shepard's crew in the villian catagory, then I think she a Type V Anti-hero according to tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAntiHeroes . 

chatters1994 wrote...
A strong woman to me is one who acknowledges her shortcomings, one that works around them or flat out overcomes them, and who retains her moral compass in the face of anything.

By your definition then, Jack is the very definition of a strong woman.  Remember that morality is taught.  Jack has been trained from her earliest days to have a certain moral code, one who's guideline are strength, power, and survival.  classic behavioral conditioning techniques were used to ensure that she adheared to its tenants.  When she used her power against others, no matter if they were stong, weak, attacking, or begging for mercy, she was chemically rewarded with pleasure.  If she hesitated she was shocked.  After she escaped Pragia, her life's experiances have reenforced her earlier teachings.  Even though she exists in a world that no longer conforms to the morals she was taught, she has maintained her sense of right and wrong.  She has acknowledged the times she has been weak, (the cult for example), and overcome them.  That her moral compass is totally askew from accepted norms doesn't change the fact that she's still adheared to it..

[Volus Warlord]

Jack is screwed up self-righteous temperamental sex puppet. Not much more. Much like Miranda.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Volus Warlord: Come at me, bro.

[DiebytheSword]

slimgrin wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

  I'd love to see what's in the eye of the hurricane.

Actually we saw that. She had selective memory and fabricates much of her angst.

I haven't, I have yet to romance her or youtube it.  I have a playthrough set aside for it that I am not yet on.

[spirosz]

I've heard from a lot of female gamers that Jack is one if, if not the one female character that they can actually relate to in a sense. Though it depends on how you view the person and what you've experienced as a person, so everyone opinion about "what defines a strong female" is going to be different.

she succumbed to hating everyone and everything including herself

Wouldn't you be the same from experiencing what she experienced? She wouldn't want anyone becoming like her because it just leads down to an unending destructible path.  Also, how does that make her weaker from other females? I would argue she's one of the most independent and strong females in the series (but with a lot of baggage, yet, who doesn't have baggage). Also, I do understand the whole "Shepard is the only one to fix her", but I don't agree with that statement as well, at least from my viewpoint. My Shepard isn't there to fix her, he's there to show her that the world can be a beautiful place and that she will find happiness (hopefully in a positive form) with or without him.

those who don't lose their humanity or compassion, despite the odds and the bleak circumstances they find themselves in.

Again, it really depends on the circumstances and from all we've heard from Jack, whenever something positive happens throughout her life, it ends up disappearing from her, in a flash (Murdock (sp?). So again, what do you expect from her? People express their views from their own experiences, it shapes them, horrible **** has shaped her whole life.

Modifié par spiros9110, 21 décembre 2011 - 03:59 .

[didymos1120]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I haven't, I have yet to romance her or youtube it.  I have a playthrough set aside for it that I am not yet on.

You've never done her loyalty mission?  Because that's what Slim's referring to. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 décembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[S.A.K]

While I don't really like Jack, I disagree. She is a very well written character.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Jack tries to be bad ass and she talks the talk but she's tame on ship and with the crew she only swears at shep and she shows herself to be anti social yet she'll lead the 2nd fire team and stay after she's gotten her data for no other reason then the hell of it or if you kill her during the SM she'll say, "Why did you make me care?" Really Jack? All that sailor talk and hiding out under the floor boards was you bonding and caring for the crew? Personally I think BW needed a shock factor to make people buy the game like the sex scenes did for ME, Jack was that selling point a foul mouth no shirt girl with an attitude she was one of the questionable write ins they should've left out. Kasumi, Thane, and Grunt are the others I feel really didn't need to be there at least Zaeeds in it for the money made some sense.

In reality she would've used you to get off the exploding prison, gotten the data in exchange for not blowing up your ship, then after you hit port skip town, or she would've done all that and then after you help her blow up her home then she'd skip town it all depends on if she feels once you reach that hub could she make it to her home on her own or should she try to use you some more to get revenge. Her para turn around was really weak and stupid because it takes a long time for someone with that amount of baggage to turn it around not a few months and certainly not without relapse.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 21 décembre 2011 - 04:00 .

[slimgrin]

DiebytheSword wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

  I'd love to see what's in the eye of the hurricane.

Actually we saw that. She had selective memory and fabricates much of her angst.

I haven't, I have yet to romance her or youtube it.  I have a playthrough set aside for it that I am not yet on.

Its been a couple years, but my take on her recruitment mission was that she thought she had it worse than all the other subjects, but because of her potential, she was actually coddled...in a way. She starts recalling all this sh*t as you explore the facility that isn't there. It was in her head. And Shepard can call her on it too if I remember right.

The strong females of the game imo are Miranda, Samara, and Ashley. Jack still has some growing up to do.

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[Volus Warlord]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Volus Warlord: Come at me, bro.

Hm?

Jack's identifying attributes:

1.) Easy. Renegade quickie much?

2.) Screwed up. Wah wah wah, I was raised in a lab. Wah wah wah, I ran around with scumbags. Wah, wah, wah.

3.) Bad temper for no apparent reason. Pissy for the sake of being pissy. No real rhyme or reason to instances of pissiness.

Miranda:
1.) Easy. Sexual history could probably fill up the Codex. Gotta get back at daddy somehow?

2.) Screwed up. My daddy didn't love me enough. Wah wah wah.

3.) Pretentious ******. Tries to look down on things or people. Ruthlessly objectivizing and over-analytical.

The two really aren't that different at all.

[didymos1120]

slimgrin wrote...

Its been a couple years, but my take on her recruitment mission was that she thougt she had it worse than all the other subjects, but because of her potential, she was actually coddled...in a way. She starts recalling all this sh*t as you explore the facility that isn't there. It was in her head. And Shepard can call her on it too if I rememeber right.

No, it's simply the case that Jack didn't know everything about everything that happened there.  And why would she? She was locked away most of the time.  So she drew some inaccurate conclusions from limited information.  That's not the same thing as it being "in her head".  That's just standard human fallibility combined with the standard vagaries of human memory.  But the fact that nasty things happened to her was never in doubt, nor is Shep able to say anything like that.  You can simply choose to point out that, as I said, Jack didn't know everything. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:06 .

[MACharlie1]

slimgrin wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

  I'd love to see what's in the eye of the hurricane.

Actually we saw that. She had selective memory and fabricates much of her angst.

I haven't, I have yet to romance her or youtube it.  I have a playthrough set aside for it that I am not yet on.

Its been a couple years, but my take on her recruitment mission was that she thought she had it worse than all the other subjects, but because of her potential, she was actually coddled...in a way. She starts recalling all this sh*t as you explore the facility that isn't there. It was in her head. And Shepard can call her on it too if I remember right.

The strong females of the game imo are Miranda, Samara, and Ashley. Jack still has some growing up to do.

Actually as you explore the facility, you learn that all the crap that Jack described was there....just that it wasn't just her. The only thing she really "makes up" was how everyone hated her and that...was kind of true.

"I know you Subject Zero. They inflicted horrors on us so their experiements wouldn't kill you." 

What wasn't true was how they were ignoring her whenever she yelled at them because of the two-way mirror. 

[slimgrin]

MACharlie1 wrote...


"I know you Subject Zero. They inflicted horrors on us so their experiements wouldn't kill you." 

Ok you're right...but this sentence here. Doesn't that confirm the rest were expendable and she wasn't? She was the chosen one and quite frankly I don't blame them hating her for that.

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:24 .

[Asenza]

slimgrin wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...


"I know you Subject Zero. They inflicted horrors on us so their experiements wouldn't kill you." 

Ok you're right...but this sentence here. Doesn't that confirm the rest were expendabole and she wasn't? She was the chosen one and quite frankly I don't blame them hating her for that.

Was she supposed to be happy about that, that she was favored among all the test subjects that were seen as little more than lab rats?

That her "better treatment" afforded her complete isolation and inflicted even more mental trauma on her due to lack of socialization?