230 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

I don't understand the rationale myself. She was abused and bullied so she does worse. She gets her freedom and goes on a killing spree. She has nothing in the empathy/compassion department. She kills a whole station full of people for no reason at all. She is an irredeemable murderess. I didn't even want Jack and felt put upon to take her on Shepard's ship. Already had powerful biotics so she was unneeded.

[Merchant2006]

lol

[Sgt Bilko]

i wanted jack dead as soon as i seen her, she's too cocky and can't even fight properly samara is the way better biotic and less likely to knife me in the back (maybe depends on the code)

[Spoiledrotten]

>Inviciblehero

She knew of nothing BUT violence. That's what she was raised to do. And besides, she's hardly the only remorseless killer on the ship. There's Zaeed, Thane, Samara, Garrus, Mordin... Everybody.

And besides, she doesn't go on a killing spree. She kills people who she feels are a danger to her, or have wronged her in some way.

My memory is hazy, but I think that the turians on that space station killed, arrested or somehow wronged the small colony she joined. It wasn't random, it was revenge.


>Sgt Bilko

Samara is far more likely to try to kill you than anyone else on the squad. Even Morinth. She may not want to, but her code compels her. Have you looted a corpse, cracked a safe and perhaps robbed someone of their livelihood, or blew up a star system full of people? You have? Well then, paragon or renegade, you are most likely on the list, once her oath ends.

Jack is pretty mellow all things considered. If she's loyal, and if you're not a Cerberus loyalist, she doesn't have any beef with you.

Modifié par Spoiledrotten, 21 décembre 2011 - 12:16 .

[Stardusk78]

What exactly is a strong female anyway, do we have a definition anywhere?

[Dean_the_Young]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

Actually, here's a fun experiment for us kiddies.

Pick a ME character and reverse their gender. What do you think of the quality of their writing now? Are they stronger or weaker? Did your opinion change at all?

Ooooh, I LOVE genderbends!

I'd say the writing quality gets even better.

I would romance FemGarrus so hard.

What are you talking about?

Garrus is already a woman. A lesbian Turian in a militaristic, patriarchial culture.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 21 décembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok don't get me wrong. But what exactly is the rule and what the exception? Because to my personal experience I have to say that I have met less 'strong' women than those who are looking for a strong man to submit to. I realize that in the media we get a more ... balanced picture, but that has not become reality yet as far as I can tell. Exceptions exist of course. Though I still hope it will become reality some day.

Our little argument is based around stereotypes in general, not any specific example.

The female submission thing is starting to go away, but it'll take time.  The submission/dominance dynamic isn't evil in and of itself (equality is better, IMO, but who am I to dictate other people's relationships?), but it becomes a problem when one gender is expected to occupy a certain position nearly all the time.  A naturally dominant woman (like myself) is kind of a turn-off for a lot of dudes.

:happy:

No, I am not referring to BDSM.

[MassStorm]

Stardusk78 wrote...

What exactly is a strong female anyway, do we have a definition anywhere?

Mary Sue........in other words boring boring boring

[CptData]

MassStorm wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

What exactly is a strong female anyway, do we have a definition anywhere?

Mary Sue........in other words boring boring boring

Like Liara?
Sorry, could not resist. Don't feel offended :happy:
I like her, but never found her that much interesting. I kinda consider her as a Mary Sue, mostly because the sudden change of her character to make her the new Shadow Broker. Without that story I'd consider Liara as nice addition to the time and maybe LI.

Must say, if BW would have done something similar to Ashley, I couldn't romance her anymore.

Modifié par CptData, 21 décembre 2011 - 02:17 .

[MassStorm]

CptData wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

What exactly is a strong female anyway, do we have a definition anywhere?

Mary Sue........in other words boring boring boring

Like Liara?
Sorry, could not resist. Don't feel offended :happy:
I like her, but never found her that much interesting. I kinda consider her as a Mary Sue, mostly because the sudden change of her character to make her the new Shadow Broker. Without that story I'd consider Liara as nice addition to the time and maybe LI.

Must say, if BW would have done something similar to Ashley, I couldn't romance her anymore.

Offended..naaaah that's your opinion of course. I think that in ME1 she was hardly a MS, in ME2 she just matured and became a strong asari. Though she is not capable of dealing every situation by her own, that's why Shepard is there to help her reaching her goals...a true Mary Sue is too "cool" to receive help by someone.  She also deeply love Shepard resembling an addiction to him/her...a true Mary Sue is "too cool" to show affection to anyone...a true Mary Sue does not cry for someone.

Modifié par MassStorm, 21 décembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[CptData]

MassStorm wrote...

Offended..naaaah that's your opinion of course. I think that in ME1 she was hardly a MS, in ME2 she just matured and became a strong asari. Though she is not capable of dealing every situation by her own, that's why Shepard is there to help her reaching her goals...a true Mary Sue is too "cool" to receive help by someone.  She also deeply love Shepard resembling an addiction to him/her...a true Mary Sue is "too cool" to show affection to anyone...a true Mary Sue does not cry for someone.

Kinda need to return that "your opinion"

A Mary Sue can feel affection towards someone.

Maybe the Liara in my playthroughs loves Shepard, but my Shepard doesn't return those feelings. She's pretty much a good friend to him, a friend he values, but he simply can't see her as more than that. Of course I project my own ideas of an ideal relationship on my Shepards: they want a challenge. That's why my Shepard goes after Ashley. It simply appears a lot more challenging to me, and, without giving anything away, it looks as if BW continues walking down that road in ME3.

Think Liara is a bit more Mary Sueish than Ashley, although both don't really fit that trope.


Uh and I don't think BW did Liara a favor by making her to the SB. I liked that DLC. But must say, it shouldn't have been Liara. Somehow Gianna Parasini fits that role far better, but that's just my own opinion.

[frostajulie]

The only thing weak about jack was the gimped interactions she has with Femshep. Jack is a ****ing icon of badassery. Shes a deep and amazing character who managed to come through violent conditioning with some sense of free will and she doesn't get stuck in her past but spends her life fighting her way free from it. Her choices are not paragon, so what she doesn't know what paragon is but she fights in the only way she knows how which is violently she makes some really bad decisions but she knew nothing about nothing and still she manages to save the freaking galaxy with CF Shepard.
Jack, weak? 1 dimensional? Shallow?

I'd laugh myself to death but then I would miss out on Jack and ME3

[Stardusk78]

CptData wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

Offended..naaaah that's your opinion of course. I think that in ME1 she was hardly a MS, in ME2 she just matured and became a strong asari. Though she is not capable of dealing every situation by her own, that's why Shepard is there to help her reaching her goals...a true Mary Sue is too "cool" to receive help by someone.  She also deeply love Shepard resembling an addiction to him/her...a true Mary Sue is "too cool" to show affection to anyone...a true Mary Sue does not cry for someone.

Kinda need to return that "your opinion"

A Mary Sue can feel affection towards someone.

Maybe the Liara in my playthroughs loves Shepard, but my Shepard doesn't return those feelings. She's pretty much a good friend to him, a friend he values, but he simply can't see her as more than that. Of course I project my own ideas of an ideal relationship on my Shepards: they want a challenge. That's why my Shepard goes after Ashley. It simply appears a lot more challenging to me, and, without giving anything away, it looks as if BW continues walking down that road in ME3.

Think Liara is a bit more Mary Sueish than Ashley, although both don't really fit that trope.


Uh and I don't think BW did Liara a favor by making her to the SB. I liked that DLC. But must say, it shouldn't have been Liara. Somehow Gianna Parasini fits that role far better, but that's just my own opinion.

You can look at SB Liara in two different ways, one it doesn't fit her, another she had been working as an information broker for 2 years and the SB is the ultimate info broker, she is still teenager by Asari standards and the gods only know how much we change in our teens and twenties, so it is normal that she would change and be 'unformed' in a way.

[Il Divo]

chatters1994 wrote...

I didn't mean weak, I meant weakly written.  It's so easy to have what I'd call the Kill Bill archetype, the avenging female who was abused at some point, and gains the ability to slay all, because marketing wants to appeal to critics rewarding "female empowerment" at its most shallow.

I'm not sure I follow why Kill Bill is a demonstration of a weakly written female character. You ultimately can condense most protagonists into an archetype, but it's the details that serve as a distinguishing point. It's not the "avenging female" archetype, as you put it, but simply the "avenging archetype", which has existed for quite some time.

As for the Bride as a character, I thought she was a fantastic protagonist, with a motivation that does compromise more than just "kill everyone". She's definitely flawed. I mean, she was a bloody assassin. But making a strong female character wasn't just about giving her a Hattori Hanzo sword and sending her to kill Japanese guys. Kill Bill Volume II was itself all dialogue, and provides the background story on how we've reached this point in the story. 

[stonbw1]

Jack seemed to have split personalities in her conversations. We know her to have an evil/badass streak, but then you talk to her and she's so genial and sweet at times. It flip flops and is a bit out of character (personally, I just feel the VA/script went too genial). After all, it's okay not to be able to break through to a character and cure them of their evil ways- that's real life, no?

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

I actually didn't mind Jack too much as a character. She's not supposed to be "strong," she's supposed to be lashing out at the world. Now, the romance has the "healing dick" cliche written all over it and you can make a pretty good case the writers would probably have written her differently if she were male, but those are different issues.

[FlyinElk212]

You already had the "strong female" archetype you described in Samara. No need to place those characteristics on more of the females.

Besides, Jack not being a "strong" character doesn't mean she isn't a great character.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jreezy wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I actually didn't mind Jack too much as a character. She's not supposed to be "strong," she's supposed to be lashing out at the world. Now, the romance has the "healing dick" cliche written all over it and you can make a pretty good case the writers would probably have written her differently if she were male, but those are different issues.

Replace that with the female equivalent and nothing changes.

Yeah, "healing dick" is just the term I've seen used because for whatever reason* lover/therapists are usually male. Bioware, however, is nothing if not an equal opportunity offender with this sort of thing 

*sexism.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:31 .

[Stardusk78]

jreezy wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I actually didn't mind Jack too much as a character. She's not supposed to be "strong," she's supposed to be lashing out at the world. Now, the romance has the "healing dick" cliche written all over it and you can make a pretty good case the writers would probably have written her differently if she were male, but those are different issues.

Replace that with the female equivalent and nothing changes.

Now, the romance has the "healing ****" cliche written all over it?

[Stardusk78]

jreezy wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I actually didn't mind Jack too much as a character. She's not supposed to be "strong," she's supposed to be lashing out at the world. Now, the romance has the "healing dick" cliche written all over it and you can make a pretty good case the writers would probably have written her differently if she were male, but those are different issues.

Replace that with the female equivalent and nothing changes.

Now, the romance has the "healing ****" cliche written all over it?

That it does.

I didn't realise the p-word was a naughty word, whereas dick is not, a very interesting observation on the state of society these days.

[didymos1120]

Stardusk78 wrote...

You can look at SB Liara in two different ways, one it doesn't fit her, another she had been working as an information broker for 2 years and the SB is the ultimate info broker, she is still teenager by Asari standards and the gods only know how much we change in our teens and twenties, so it is normal that she would change and be 'unformed' in a way.

Liara's not the asari version of a teen, and she hasn't been for nearly 50 years.  Listen to the asari by the weapon's kiosk on Ilium:  "Hey, I'm 60 years old and finally out of my parents' house. And Eclipse girls never lack for, uh, company." Ms. T'soni is 108.  I mean, really, think about it folks: Liara's someone with a doctorate who was doing solo field work when we first met her, and had been for awhile.  What about that says "teenager" to you?  Especially since not a word has ever been said about her being some sort of asari child prodigy.

[Aimi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Liara's not the asari version of a teen, and she hasn't been for nearly 50 years.  Listen to the asari by the weapon's kiosk on Ilium:  "Hey, I'm 60 years old and finally out of my parents' house. And Eclipse girls never lack for, uh, company." Ms. T'soni is 108.  I mean, really, think about it folks: Liara's someone with a doctorate who was doing solo field work when we first met her, and had been for awhile.  What about that says "teenager" to you?  Especially since not a word has ever been said about her being some sort of asari child prodigy.

I would've posted something similar to this, about how I'm just a grad student and I'd like to see the average teenager who could do my job, except then I realized it's mostly scut work for my advisor (up to and including my thesis) and I died a little inside.