230 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Stardusk78 wrote...

What exactly is a strong female anyway, do we have a definition anywhere?

I googled "strong female character" and got this.

[Giant ambush beetle]

''Believable strong females'' makes me automatically think about the Alien series with Sigourney Weaver, Lt. Allen Ripley perfectly portrayed what I consider to be a strong female character without being butch, act like a man, acting super-tough or suffer from stereotypes. What made her strong were her wits, determination, loyalty, intuitive thinking, subtle dominant behavior and her extreme will to survive.
Jack has most if not all of this traits, its just hard to see them through her super-tough acting which she uses as protection, shes a lot smarter and a much ''better'' person than she acts or likes to admit.

[Destroy Raiden_]

The Woldan wrote...

''Believable strong females'' makes me automatically think about the Alien series with Sigourney Weaver, Lt. Allen Ripley perfectly portrayed what I consider to be a strong female character without being butch, act like a man, acting super-tough or suffer from stereotypes. What made her strong were her wits, determination, loyalty, intuitive thinking, subtle dominant behavior and her extreme will to survive.
Jack has most if not all of this traits, its just hard to see them through her super-tough acting which she uses as protection, shes a lot smarter and a much ''better'' person than she acts or likes to admit.

I agree that Ripley was a strong female potrayl a rather perfectly balanced portrayal even Vazquez though she was more rough then Ripley. Fshep is kind of like Ripley though at points (like when she's boxing Yahg) she's way more butch then Vazquez is its rather unappealing. I can't even put up with that one girl on FO3 who carries the big gun and from Riley's Rangers she's so butch its annoying. So far the only 3 women/characters I've seen who pull off the strong tough but balanced hero is Ripley, Vazquez, and GI Jane they're not over done in a way that crosses into the to manly zone aka she's overblown and trying way to hard. Starbuck did good to portray the girl juggling insanity and being tough if Jack was modeled after this character I could've bought it more. If I want to watch a tough man running around and doing those things I'll cue up nearly any action film or just play as mshep.

I can't help but think the sole reason Jack was born beyond being the marketing look at me feature for the series was so she could be a nod back over to the Pitch Black series since the young cross dressing girl in it is also named Jack and conveniently in the second one we find Jack with hair looking like a girl, trying to hard to be badass, and still having "daddy" Riddick issues and is trying to hard to be like him when she "grows up" I hope this isn't ME3's Jack trying to be like para shep and failing since Jack in the film didn't do well either.

[Last Vizard]

The Woldan wrote...

''Believable strong females'' makes me automatically think about the Alien series with Sigourney Weaver, Lt. Allen Ripley perfectly portrayed what I consider to be a strong female character without being butch, act like a man, acting super-tough or suffer from stereotypes. What made her strong were her wits, determination, loyalty, intuitive thinking, subtle dominant behavior and her extreme will to survive.
Jack has most if not all of this traits, its just hard to see them through her super-tough acting which she uses as protection, shes a lot smarter and a much ''better'' person than she acts or likes to admit.

Ripley is definately one of the best "strong" female characters I've seen so far, first watched Aliens one, two and three when I was eight years old (aliens four was awesome too).  Sigourney Weaver has a strong yet still very attractive face, She was not sexed up at all, having a "solid" figure while other "srong female" characters are too sexed up to be respectable/believeable.

I've played rugby league, soccer and other team sports with tomboys so when I see "skinny" bs actors or game characters that are supposed to be tough when really they're just sexed up it annoys the hell out of me.  Jack is a mentally weak character IMO but then torture since childhood will probably do that.

PS. I'm not into the whole dominatrix crap but it seems like most blokes like to play as chicks... this I will never understand lol oh and Kitchen joke anyone?

[slimgrin]

Isn't it possible Jack is weaker due to her ordeal?

[didymos1120]

jreezy wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

I didn't realise the p-word was a naughty word, whereas dick is not, a very interesting observation on the state of society these days.

I find it ironic in a way.

I suspect it's because whoever set up this particular nanny filter realized that "Dick" is also a name. I've seen plenty that don't, so I wouldn't try to extract too much sociological meaning from this specific example.

[Ziggy]

I thought Alyx from half life 2 was a great female character.

[Volus Warlord]

slimgrin wrote...

Isn't it possible Jack is weaker due to her ordeal?

Get that sexist nonsense out of here. :lol:

[someone else]

Last Vizard wrote...
PS. I'm not into the whole dominatrix crap but it seems like most blokes like to play as chicks... this I will never understand lol oh and Kitchen joke anyone?

...you just need to get in touch with your feminine side, mate.  And bend over.

[Stardusk78]

didymos1120 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

You can look at SB Liara in two different ways, one it doesn't fit her, another she had been working as an information broker for 2 years and the SB is the ultimate info broker, she is still teenager by Asari standards and the gods only know how much we change in our teens and twenties, so it is normal that she would change and be 'unformed' in a way.

Liara's not the asari version of a teen, and she hasn't been for nearly 50 years.  Listen to the asari by the weapon's kiosk on Ilium:  "Hey, I'm 60 years old and finally out of my parents' house. And Eclipse girls never lack for, uh, company." Ms. T'soni is 108.  I mean, really, think about it folks: Liara's someone with a doctorate who was doing solo field work when we first met her, and had been for awhile.  What about that says "teenager" to you?  Especially since not a word has ever been said about her being some sort of asari child prodigy.

I didn't mean immature, just unformed, two different things really.

[AlexXIV]

Stardusk78 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

You can look at SB Liara in two different ways, one it doesn't fit her, another she had been working as an information broker for 2 years and the SB is the ultimate info broker, she is still teenager by Asari standards and the gods only know how much we change in our teens and twenties, so it is normal that she would change and be 'unformed' in a way.

Liara's not the asari version of a teen, and she hasn't been for nearly 50 years.  Listen to the asari by the weapon's kiosk on Ilium:  "Hey, I'm 60 years old and finally out of my parents' house. And Eclipse girls never lack for, uh, company." Ms. T'soni is 108.  I mean, really, think about it folks: Liara's someone with a doctorate who was doing solo field work when we first met her, and had been for awhile.  What about that says "teenager" to you?  Especially since not a word has ever been said about her being some sort of asari child prodigy.

I didn't mean immature, just unformed, two different things really.

I think she is displayed as a nerd. She spends most time on research and little to none with real people. So maybe her social competence isn't high, but in all other respects she is an asset.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 décembre 2011 - 08:25 .

[CptData]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think she (Liara) is displayed as a nerd. She spends most time on research and little to none with real people. So maybe her social competence isn't high, but in all other respects she is an asset.

Dunno. I never saw Liara as the ship's nerd - that's more Tali's role tbh.

Liara is nice, no question. Her social competency isn't that bad, after all, you need to be a people's person to become an intel broker: you must be able to talk to people and find out all their little dirty secrets.
The Consort is a quite good example: she uses a different way to find out stuff about her clients by smooth talk and sex. Liara won't do the sex part, dunno about the smooth talk - at least she must have her ways to find out what she wants.

So overall I don't think she's social awkward - at least not that much. It appears so since she's not experienced  with humans, however, she seems to be quite comfortable with other Asari around.


Liara is a strong woman, no doubt. I don't romance her because she's not the type I'd go for in real life. The only -real- issue I do have is the sudden change from "archeologist" to "intel broker". It's not that both jobs are somehow related and competencies from one job can be used in the other one.
I really hope for an explanation in ME3. Guess Liara always was an intel broker and archeologist was her second job (which means she kinda lied in ME1). I simply can't imagine someone changing that much. It's as if an ex-boxer starts a second carreer as ballet dancer.

[Gabey5]

jack was a realistic character

[JBONE27]

chatters1994 wrote...

I really hope bioware's writers do not make the same mistake as they did with Jack in ME2.

Jack was actually a weak character, because she succumbed to hating everyone and everything including herself, and was a violent sociopath, but all you really saw from that (unless you explored her character a bit more) was a boring "I can kick anyone's ass because I'm female and have a traumatic experience" type character.

In my opinion, strong characters are those who don't lose their humanity or compassion, despite the odds and the bleak circumstances they find themselves in.  A real life example is Jack Thompson Jr, an army helicopter gunner who threatened to open fire on his own men if they continued executing civilians willy-nilly in the My Lai massacre.
He stood between his own men and vietnamese civilians he did not know, and risked imprisonment as a traitor, if not his immidiate life in doing so.

Take examples like that bioware, because I'd love to see such characters in games.

If you want a strong female character, I recommend you don't use the "kill bill" type, because it isn't really strength exhibited, but just a callus disregard for life I'd find repulsive in anyone in real life or fiction.

I know this isn't that coherent, but in summary I wish Bioware would stop pandering to the tired and overused childhood trauma/badass heroine archetype.

If you read that all you deserve a pat on the back =P

Actually it wasn't just one tramatic experience, it was a lifetime of knowing nothing but opression and pain that caused Jack to lash out, and once you do her mission she starts really coping with it.

[Kappa Neko]

CptData wrote...

I really hope for an explanation in ME3. Guess Liara always was an intel broker and archeologist was her second job (which means she kinda lied in ME1). I simply can't imagine someone changing that much. It's as if an ex-boxer starts a second carreer as ballet dancer.

Hm, Liara didn't really become a different person. The SB interactions clearly showed that she did not turn into a stone-cold **** while Shep was away. In ME2 she comes off as shockingly indifferent to murder. That is because Shep had no information about what happened in the course of those two years.
Liara had to deal with a lot when Shep died. She was forced to leave the ivory tower of science and deal with the ugly world. She fought for Shep's body, her friend was kidnapped and so on. That sort of stuff changes people. It hardens them. The reapers put things into perspective, too.
But deep down Liara is still a very compassionate person. SB Liara is not as different from ME1 Liara as many people claim IMO.

[CptData]

Kappa Neko wrote...

CptData wrote...

I really hope for an explanation in ME3. Guess Liara always was an intel broker and archeologist was her second job (which means she kinda lied in ME1). I simply can't imagine someone changing that much. It's as if an ex-boxer starts a second carreer as ballet dancer.

Hm, Liara didn't really become a different person. The SB interactions clearly showed that she did not turn into a stone-cold **** while Shep was away. In ME2 she comes off as shockingly indifferent to murder. That is because Shep had no information about what happened in the course of those two years.
Liara had to deal with a lot when Shep died. She was forced to leave the ivory tower of science and deal with the ugly world. She fought for Shep's body, her friend was kidnapped and so on. That sort of stuff changes people. It hardens them. The reapers put things into perspective, too.
But deep down Liara is still a very compassionate person. SB Liara is not as different from ME1 Liara as many people claim IMO.

It does make sense and still I can't fully concur.
It still doesn't make much sense Liara changed her profession. I mean, people can treat Liara as "person non grata" if they want (not that I did that) and Liara still saves his/her body. You can pick up Liara post!Virmire and never talk to her - she still is the one who saves Shepard's body. She still acts as if Shepard was her best friend in ME1 in LotSB ...

The question is: why Liara? And why do have old decisions no influence on her behavior in ME2?

I know the answer: it's a writer's decision. And one of the few occasions where you see most decisions are more an illusion than a real impact on the story.

Never treated Liara "bad" in my playthroughs - more "professional". I wondered why she was acting so emotional in ME2 ...

Whatever.

[AlexXIV]

CptData wrote...

Kappa Neko wrote...

CptData wrote...

I really hope for an explanation in ME3. Guess Liara always was an intel broker and archeologist was her second job (which means she kinda lied in ME1). I simply can't imagine someone changing that much. It's as if an ex-boxer starts a second carreer as ballet dancer.

Hm, Liara didn't really become a different person. The SB interactions clearly showed that she did not turn into a stone-cold **** while Shep was away. In ME2 she comes off as shockingly indifferent to murder. That is because Shep had no information about what happened in the course of those two years.
Liara had to deal with a lot when Shep died. She was forced to leave the ivory tower of science and deal with the ugly world. She fought for Shep's body, her friend was kidnapped and so on. That sort of stuff changes people. It hardens them. The reapers put things into perspective, too.
But deep down Liara is still a very compassionate person. SB Liara is not as different from ME1 Liara as many people claim IMO.

It does make sense and still I can't fully concur.
It still doesn't make much sense Liara changed her profession. I mean, people can treat Liara as "person non grata" if they want (not that I did that) and Liara still saves his/her body. You can pick up Liara post!Virmire and never talk to her - she still is the one who saves Shepard's body. She still acts as if Shepard was her best friend in ME1 in LotSB ...

The question is: why Liara? And why do have old decisions no influence on her behavior in ME2?

I know the answer: it's a writer's decision. And one of the few occasions where you see most decisions are more an illusion than a real impact on the story.

Never treated Liara "bad" in my playthroughs - more "professional". I wondered why she was acting so emotional in ME2 ...

Whatever.

You could as well ask why TIM is saving Shepard. Doesn't make more sense than Liara doing it. Obviously because Shepard is the hero who saves the day.

Personally, I never noticed. I romanced Liara and picked her up as soon as possible. So it never felt odd that she would go any length to save Shepard.

And the intel broker thing can easily be explained as well. She has always been an intel broker of sorts. Just that she used the skill mostly in her researches. I mean how else would she find out about all the places and clues to her researches? By traveling the galaxy and asking her way through? I don't think so.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 décembre 2011 - 11:06 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Strong female character?

Miranda.

[CptData]

AlexXIV wrote...

You could as well ask why TIM is saving Shepard. Doesn't make more sense than Liara doing it. Obviously because Shepard is the hero who saves the day.

Personally, I never noticed. I romanced Liara and picked her up as soon as possible. So it never felt odd that she would go any length to save Shepard.

And the intel broker thing can easily be explained as well. She has always been an intel broker of sorts. Just that she used the skill mostly in her researches. I mean how else would she find out about all the places and clues to her researches? By traveling the galaxy and asking her way through? I don't think so.

Na, archeology and intel brokering are two different worlds. Like profi-boxing and profi ice skating. Both are sports but a boxer can not hope to be a perfect ice skater within a couple of months.

Liara's behavior towards Shepard makes sense if she's his/her love interest, no doubt. I just wished BW would have picked another character in case s/he was not in love with Liara. That's all.
And the entire Shadow Broker story ... I must say it got only added to make Liara more interesting. For plot reasons BW could have introduced a new character or use Gianna Parasini. At least her current profession is close enough to "intel broker" and makes far more sense to me.

[AlexXIV]

CptData wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You could as well ask why TIM is saving Shepard. Doesn't make more sense than Liara doing it. Obviously because Shepard is the hero who saves the day.

Personally, I never noticed. I romanced Liara and picked her up as soon as possible. So it never felt odd that she would go any length to save Shepard.

And the intel broker thing can easily be explained as well. She has always been an intel broker of sorts. Just that she used the skill mostly in her researches. I mean how else would she find out about all the places and clues to her researches? By traveling the galaxy and asking her way through? I don't think so.

Na, archeology and intel brokering are two different worlds. Like profi-boxing and profi ice skating. Both are sports but a boxer can not hope to be a perfect ice skater within a couple of months.

Liara's behavior towards Shepard makes sense if she's his/her love interest, no doubt. I just wished BW would have picked another character in case s/he was not in love with Liara. That's all.
And the entire Shadow Broker story ... I must say it got only added to make Liara more interesting. For plot reasons BW could have introduced a new character or use Gianna Parasini. At least her current profession is close enough to "intel broker" and makes far more sense to me.

Well Liara is not digging for bronze statues. She is digging up Prothean artifacts which are probably as advanced if not more advanced than anything known in the galaxy. So a certain level of tech and intel is probably necessary for these kind of researches.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 décembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[CptData]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well Liara is not digging for bronze statues. She is digging up Prothean artifacts which are probably as advanced if not more advanced than anything known in the galaxy. So a certain level of tech and intel is probably necessary for these kind of researches.

I can hear you.

And I think xeno-archeologists are pretty much the same like "normal" archeologists. They have books and datapads and the internet (or extranet) for research and do know other archeologists. Besides that, Liara was in that business for half of her young life. Means: she had a lot of time to become a good archeologist. However, she rarely displays it - she's guessing like the rest of the crew.

To be honest, given the fact she has a lot of (incredible precious) artifacts in her apartment, it kinda degrades her scientific attitude. It appears as if she's more kind of a collector than a scientist. Sure, that's plain wrong ... it just looks like that.

I stay with my theory and say, intel broker Liara doesn't work without a darn fine explanation. That one is missing. Her sudden interest in intel brokering may be triggered by Shepard's death. But that requires affection to Shepard first. I could understand if Liara would try to save Shepard's corpse somehow if she was in love with him and those feelings were returned. So it works for your playthrough. It doesn't work for mine - not without a still not-yet told story regarding her sudden changes.