174 réponses à ce sujet

[Gunderic]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

virumor wrote...

Morroian wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

The Dragon Age series had a huge hit with Origins, yet they look at a game that is pretty much non-RPG as a guide. .

Non rpg? Skyrim? 

Didn't you know that any game that doesn't follow my arbitrary definition of a RPG, is not a RPG?

I just don't see any role in the character that Skyrim gives. There is nothing to tie the character to any sort of background or relationship to the world other than the fact that he/she is an adventurer and prisoner. You only have persuade and a few other skills to actually differentiate anything in dialogue.

In New Vegas, you can establish a character as a doctor, player, idiot, cannibal, scientist, etc.--included with this are several past exploits that you can choose to have your character establish (such as going to New Reno/having a girl back in Montana). The possiblities are endless because skills are so vast and count towards dialogue. As much as I disliked Fallout: 3, it was more of a roleplaying game than Skyrim as the character actually had (although badly written) a purpose for being in the Wasteland and caring for it.

Skyrim is more about being a hiking simulator than actually roleplaying a character and exploring the characters that dwell within its universe. It was fun in Oblivion because that was my first TES game, but re-hashing it again did not sit well with me.

Now, before I get flamed, I shouldn't even need to mention it, but this is all in my own opinion.

Come on. I like New Vegas too, but those are optional one-time references only. The Courier is almost just as empty an avatar for the player to fill in as any other, even more so than the player character in Fallout 3, where (s)he actually had a background. When you make a decision, you rarely even emphasize why you support it, what's wrong with not doing it, why you even think that way, etc. You just choose to commit to it, and the game lets you completely make it up as you go.

New Vegas is of course better at letting the player roleplay than Skyrim, but for different reasons (imo), some of which you mentioned. It's about quest design, skills having non-combat consequences, generally more interesting characters, etc.

I'm probably not making much sense here. What I'm trying to say is, while New Vegas of course gives you branching quests, choices, different outcomes, significance to non-combat skills, I never feel like it really lets me establish what my character is personality-wise by using the same tools provided by the game, without having my imagination fill in the blanks, just like with Skyrim to some extent. I may have a great skill in medicine and be able to treat characters within story-significant consequences, but I never felt I was allowed to actually act or behave like a doctor. I still felt like a moving screen.

Which isn't necessarily bad of course. Just a different type of game. Skyrim gives you even less to work with; arguably it's not the best roleplaying experience you'll ever have, but I still consider it a roleplaying game as long as I'm allowed to create my own character and develop it, within limits, how I want it to be.

Old school dungeon crawlers also suffer from the same thing (to an even greater extent, probably): very little character development (narrative), ver little narrative focus, emphasis strictly on combat, loot-hoarding, etc., and yet they're still considered roleplaying games.

Modifié par Gunderic, 22 décembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Elhanan]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I just don't see any role in the character that Skyrim gives. There is nothing to tie the character to any sort of background or relationship to the world other than the fact that he/she is an adventurer and prisoner. You only have persuade and a few other skills to actually differentiate anything in dialogue....

Personally, in almost any CRPG, the role I play is my own. The game may provide info, but it is the Player that unravels the story to suit their tastes. My own variations of the Warden, Shepard, etc are fairly different than what comes in the game itself.

Skyrim simply allows the Player more freedom for background creation; less detailing of the primary character.

While I prefer the more linear pathing of KOTOR, DA, ME, and NWN1 over Sandbox games - as Skyrim is the first I have enjoyed - this does not invalidate them as RPG's.

[Elhanan]

slimgrin wrote...

I understand the bias on this site against open world games. And it is a bias. they are a perfectly valid structure for an RPG, and story can be implemented just fine in an open world setting. I've actually wanted Bioware to provide bigger maps in their games for ages, as both ME2 and especially DA:O had some fairly uninspired and contrived level design. There can be a compromise, as games like Ego Draconis, Divine Divinity, and TW2 prove. Open form gameplay + story driven narrative is a win for everyone.

So if they're serious about this, more power to them.

Perhaps I have a bias, as Skyrim is the first Sandbox game I have enjoyed. Such an opinion is based on experience; not from thin air.

While I love the freedom of creation and playing in a world full of dungeons, ruins, Holds, stables, etc, I so miss the deeper interactions with NPC's, storylines, and dialogue; esp with someone that is supposed to be in a romantic relationship.
 
Having the spouse cook Dinner Du Jour is not my ideal relationship, though I do like having the small kiosk on the side. I would prefer to have Morrigan threaten to add the local flora once than endure more of the same daily repetative lines from the insta-marriages; just add Mara.

What is my hope for the future of DA is a greater freedom for the Player to create characters, and possibly explore as they desire, but with the higher standard of storytelling that has been set by Bioware.

IMO.

[Addai]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...
I just don't see any role in the character that Skyrim gives. There is nothing to tie the character to any sort of background or relationship to the world other than the fact that he/she is an adventurer and prisoner. You only have persuade and a few other skills to actually differentiate anything in dialogue.

Do you need that spoon-fed to you?  It's up to you to supply a backstory, join factions and develop your own character story.  No non-combat skills... like all those crafting skills?  You're comparing Skyrim negatively to Fallout New Vegas?  How so, when crafting and factions count just as much or more?

The Courier had no more background than the Dovahkiin- even less, and when the DLC stipulated a background element, many people complained because it forced their Courier to have done a certain thing at some point in the past.

It's fine if you don't like to create your own character, but there are TONS of games that force you into a prescribed role.

[LobselVith8]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

I just think it means Less Linearity in the quests

Given how linear the last two story DLCs were, I doubt it.

[naughty99]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

The Dragon Age series had a huge hit with Origins, yet they look at a game that is pretty much non-RPG as a guide.

Skyrim has much more in common with pen and paper RPGs than most games with conventional old school stats.

RPG does not equal "STR, DEX, INT:", etc. The developers of the earliest cRPGs simply saw a way to translate D&D math to computer games back in the 70s / early 80s and ever since, we have been saddled with certain conventions that do not have anything directly to do with taking on a role and playing the part of your character.

By virtue of providing a massively detailed sandbox world with thousands of NPCs, numerous interesting faction questlines, compelling lore, and more than 500 locations, a civil war in which the PC can play an important role, 410 marked quests (some of which are terrifically written), etc., Skyrim is closer to the roots of pen and paper RPGs in the sense that you are closer to being able to fully play that role, closer to being able to do whatever you feel your character would choose to do.

Some players of pen and paper games may approach them as a sort of table-top battle simulator but all the groups I have played with over the past few decades typically focus more on the role-playing aspect, which centers on the fact that you play the part of a character by taking whatever actions you imagine that character would take. You can go anywhere in the game world and talk to any of an infinite number of NPCs, for whatever purpose you wish. The story develops naturally out of the improv between game master and player, often with the GM frantically adjusting his planned adventure on the fly to accommodate unanticipated player choices.

Obviously video games are never going to reach that level of infinite possibilities and choices which exists in our imaginations, but Skyrim does a much better job of this than many other RPGs with all kinds of old school stats but limited player choice.

That said, I think it would be a mistake to assume Bioware is looking at Skyrim as any sort of "guide." Game devs play lots of different games, on a regular basis, and often look at whether certain features might work for whatever project they are working on. They are just as likely to be evaluating features from other games they are playing like ME3, TOR, etc., probably even FPS or adventure games.

Modifié par naughty99, 22 décembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[Gunderic]

naughty99 wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

The Dragon Age series had a huge hit with Origins, yet they look at a game that is pretty much non-RPG as a guide.

Skyrim has much more in common with pen and paper RPGs than most games with conventional old school stats.

RPG does not equal "STR, DEX, INT:", etc. The developers of the earliest cRPGs simply saw a way to translate D&D math to computer games back in the 70s / early 80s and ever since, we have been saddled with certain conventions that do not have anything directly to do with taking on a role and playing the part of your character.

By virtue of providing a massively detailed sandbox world with thousands of NPCs, numerous interesting faction questlines, compelling lore, and more than 500 locations, a civil war in which the PC can play an important role, 410 marked quests (some of which are terrifically written), etc., Skyrim is closer to the roots of pen and paper RPGs in the sense that you are closer to being able to fully play that role, closer to being able to do whatever you feel your character would choose to do.

Some players of pen and paper games may approach them as a sort of table-top battle simulator but all the groups I have played with over the past few decades typically focus more on the role-playing aspect, which centers on the fact that you play the part of a character by taking whatever actions you imagine that character would take. You can go anywhere in the game world and talk to any of an infinite number of NPCs, for whatever purpose you wish. The story develops naturally out of the improv between game master and player, often with the GM frantically adjusting his planned adventure on the fly to accommodate unanticipated player choices.

Obviously video games are never going to reach that level of infinite possibilities and choices which exists in our imaginations, but Skyrim does a much better job of this than many other RPGs with all kinds of old school stats but limited player choice.

That said, I think it would be a mistake to assume Bioware is looking at Skyrim as any sort of "guide." Game devs play lots of different games, on a regular basis, and often look at whether certain features might work for whatever project they are working on. They are just as likely to be evaluating features from other games they are probably playing like ME3, TOR, etc.

I agree with this. Skyrim is more of a 'roleplaying game' than say, The Witcher 2, which I consider more of a hybrid since it has a set protagonist. And this has nothing to do with how good either games are, of course.

But I also think stats do play a significant part in letting the player establish what his character is like, what he's able to do, etc.; it's still a very important part of roleplaying games imo.

Modifié par Gunderic, 22 décembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[sympathyforsaren]

I happen to like TES and Fallout rpgs and rpgs like DAO, The Witcher, Planescape Torment and Baldur's Gate. It's a different flavor...both are good. One side has a narrative and cinematic driven story focus, the other has tools and elements that enable you to craft your own story and play the role of somebody you want to play and shape it in your own way. It takes pacing, but the freedom is nice.

Dragon Age III needs a focus on what it is going to be and what it is going to do. These are points of emphasis that are the cornerstones of the game (albeit not the entire game itself). Since BioWare said they're taking a look at Skyrim, let's see what Skyrim's focus was on. These were some of their selling points. Please note all will not be applicable to BioWare, but some may be.

-You are Dragonborn. You are born with the soul of a dragon. This (outside lore explanation) enables you to absorb the souls of dragons and shout using Words of Power.

-Be who you want and do whatever you want.

-6 factions

-Over 150 handcrafted dungeons

-Fight dragons

-Duel-wield one-handed weapons, and spells.


Also worth noting: NPC banter is top-notch and surprisingly detailed, sometimes funny as hell.

I don't think, like I said, BioWare is making a sandbox. Although sandbox exploration on detailed planets in the ME IP should have been a mainstay. I think they are looking beyond that, if indeed they seriously want some good advice. The enormous revenues got their attention.

Yes, complex enchanting systems, alchemy systems, stats stats stats and the Aldmeri Dominion apparently = mega profits.

Modifié par sympathyforsaren, 22 décembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Moondoggie]

Addai67 wrote...

Do you need that spoon-fed to you?  It's up to you to supply a backstory, join factions and develop your own character story.  No non-combat skills... like all those crafting skills?  You're comparing Skyrim negatively to Fallout New Vegas?  How so, when crafting and factions count just as much or more?

The Courier had no more background than the Dovahkiin- even less, and when the DLC stipulated a background element, many people complained because it forced their Courier to have done a certain thing at some point in the past.

It's fine if you don't like to create your own character, but there are TONS of games that force you into a prescribed role.

In that case they should just sell empty books and make you write the story yourself. You're making excuses for poor writing by claiming that a game with an actual story and character backgrounds is "spoon feeding you" How the heck do you connect to the character you are and the world you play in if you have no idea what the point of your character and why they are doing what they are doing is? Wiggle room for you to decide what kind of character you are playing is great as is deciding how they make decisions but i find the idea of just giving you some empty canvas and sticking you in an open map of side quests sort of laughable.

Aparently now the player has to do the job of the writers >.>

[bussinrounds]

       

   I had to.

[bmwcrazy]

Moondoggie wrote...

In that case they should just sell empty books and make you write the story yourself. You're making excuses for poor writing by claiming that a game with an actual story and character backgrounds is "spoon feeding you" How the heck do you connect to the character you are and the world you play in if you have no idea what the point of your character and why they are doing what they are doing is? Wiggle room for you to decide what kind of character you are playing is great as is deciding how they make decisions but i find the idea of just giving you some empty canvas and sticking you in an open map of side quests sort of laughable.

Aparently now the player has to do the job of the writers >.>

Like everything else, it all comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the great storytelling of Dragon Age 2 but I also find the way it reuses the same dungeons over and over again overwhelmingly dull and uninspiring.

On the other hand, I think it is brilliant the way Fallout 3 tosses you in the middle of a barren wasteland full of unpredictable dangers leaving you fend for youself. I certainly won't call it "laughable" just because it doesn't have the best story.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

@bus: Needs a bucket on his head, or a Dragon in the background.

But Skyrim is a decent ARPG when looked at objectively. It's combat is no Dark Messiah or M&B, it's quest design is no Arcanum and it's level design is no Deus Ex but it's good for what it is. There have been ARPGs that did less than Skyrim that passed the "is it an RPG?" question.

Sure there is the hiking sim element, but it kinda means something else: very pronounced and well developed exploration. You want to go out and hike because the environment looks great and can lead to so many random events and adventures. I consider that a good thing personally.

@Addai67: While the lore surround Skyrim's factions may be much more interesting, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that the factions in Skyrim were either more important to the plot or better implemented than in New Vegas because that's simply not true.

@Solid: You're the mother****ing Dragonborn, your role is to stop the Dragons. Pretty simple, pretty clear. If you don't want that role, then you can randomly adventure doing whatever you want instead. Doesn't make it a non-RPG.

Being random Adventurers who can save the world, or roaming about doing heroic deeds trying to get into the game's Hall of Fame instead, or faffing around until they're old, weak and broke or a million other combinations is exactly the premise of Darklands.

It's character system was a bit hard to get into and the UI and controls are annoying at times but that game is ****ing heaven if you are able to handle this thing called abstraction. It doesn't suffer at all by not giving the player a "role".

One of the best Sandbox RPGs ever.

That's not really ontopic (Darklands is teh awesum is not the topic unfortunately) but I already made my opinion on the actual topic known already.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 23 décembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Il Divo]

Gameplay-wise, I really think Bioware should be following Dark Souls as opposed to Skyrim. Sure, Bioware does the party-based RPGs, but in terms of balancing between "awesome button" and realistic combat, I think Dark Souls serves as a much better template to go on.

[bussinrounds]

 Crusty -  Like this ?

[Eternal Phoenix]

bussinrounds wrote...

       

   I had to.

Mount and Blade rocks.

Edit:

And seeing as we're insulting Skyrim now (my favourite hobby), here's the image that I made, you may want to enlarge it in a new tab if you want to view it full size:




Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I hope whatever "cues" Bioware are taking from Bethesda aren't on gameplay or leveling. Quite frankly, what does Bethesda do that is any good? The story? Nope. Characters? Nope. Combat? Nope. We can only imagine what Bioware is looking at Skyrim for. I hope it's simply for how the dragons were implemented into the game and nothing else because I really don't want Skyrim combat. Hell, Dragon Age 2 combat beat Skyrim's combat.

Seriously, all they need to do is go back to Origins' gameplay and that's it. Instant buck and praise again. I don't know why Bioware is doing this to themselves. It's like they hate Dragon Age!

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 décembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[bussinrounds]

Elton - I think that's just some dude in chainmail representing old school RPGs.

And lets be fair, Beth does create some decent environments. Dungeons in Skyrim are linear as **** though.

[Eternal Phoenix]

^
I know but I was just praising Mount and Blade as it came up. As for environments in TES. I'd give Bethesda that. The environments can look good. However I'm not playing their games to look at things.

[Dave of Canada]

My biggest problem with giving the player too much freedom is that we're more prone to notice when it takes it away, Skyrim often gives the player one way to complete a quest and no more than that (unlike say... New Vegas, though Obsidian does that wonderfully) with a preset mindset for the character.

For example, I can pretend my character supports the Thalmor but I'm forced to metagame the **** out of it to make sure I avoid everything that's slightly anti-Thalmor (which there is plenty) because the game only supports Empire/Stormcloaks.

Other games usually establish why a character wouldn't side with X, limiting the player's imagination and not making it seem like the player is the character. For example, Shepard can't say "I'm working with the Reapers" and most players see the reasoning behind it because Shepard doesn't seem the type of guy to do so.

It's why I'd rather Bioware would look at New Vegas for inspiration, I found it a more pleasing experience than Skyrim as it allows more player freedom within the confines of a limited character. The multitude of ways to complete quests, the ability to essentially choose your loyalties and even make your character completely proactive and strive for him/herself, rather than doing things or not doing them and forcing loyalties.

In ways of gameplay, I don't think there's much they can take from Skyrim. Completely different genres that there isn't much they can use.

[AtreiyaN7]

I'd certainly like to see more of an open-world feel and/or exploration. That would be great as long as there's a strong story, strong characters & good writing.

EDIT: Not that I expect them to go quite so far in the open-world direction.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 23 décembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[Xewaka]

*Wishes for Bioware to copy the feeling of classless skill-based system*
*Gets cold-clocked by reality*

[Dave of Canada]

Xewaka wrote...

*Wishes for Bioware to copy the feeling of classless skill-based system*
*Gets cold-clocked by reality*

Ew, I'd be locked into playing a mage! 

Unless they make the Dark Ritual's suggested prophecy a reality.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Xewaka wrote...

*Wishes for Bioware to copy the feeling of classless skill-based system*
*Gets cold-clocked by reality*

Fixed.

Now we can dream together.

:happy:

[SkittlesKat96]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Stuff

I'm so glad you posted this...I agree with you that they should look at FNV for inspiration, imo Skyrim was a great game but in a lot of areas it goes completely backwards in comparison to FNV.

Also Planescape Torment is a good think to look at in my opinion, I liked the role playing choice in that game myself.

[Lucy Glitter]

As long as the story is well-paced and the characters are explored thoroughly, I will be happy.

[HoonDing]

Moondoggie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Do you need that spoon-fed to you?  It's up to you to supply a backstory, join factions and develop your own character story.  No non-combat skills... like all those crafting skills?  You're comparing Skyrim negatively to Fallout New Vegas?  How so, when crafting and factions count just as much or more?

The Courier had no more background than the Dovahkiin- even less, and when the DLC stipulated a background element, many people complained because it forced their Courier to have done a certain thing at some point in the past.

It's fine if you don't like to create your own character, but there are TONS of games that force you into a prescribed role.

In that case they should just sell empty books and make you write the story yourself. You're making excuses for poor writing by claiming that a game with an actual story and character backgrounds is "spoon feeding you" How the heck do you connect to the character you are and the world you play in if you have no idea what the point of your character and why they are doing what they are doing is? Wiggle room for you to decide what kind of character you are playing is great as is deciding how they make decisions but i find the idea of just giving you some empty canvas and sticking you in an open map of side quests sort of laughable.

Aparently now the player has to do the job of the writers >.>

You've never played a P&P RPG, have you?

Modifié par virumor, 23 décembre 2011 - 12:48 .