174 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Moondoggie wrote...

In that case they should just sell empty books and make you write the story yourself. You're making excuses for poor writing by claiming that a game with an actual story and character backgrounds is "spoon feeding you"

You think a game that allows a player to create his (or her) own character and motivation is "bad writing"? I respectfully disagree. I like games like Skyrim and New Vegas, which allow you to literally create your own character and decide on your own motivations. What kind of person do I want to be in the Wasteland or Skyrim? What am I willing to do to get a task completed, what do I want to do, how do I want to build myself to survive in this terrain, what are my goals? Having the choice to create my own backstory and motivation for the Courier and the Dragonborn, being able to complete certain tasks in different ways, and being proactive in reacting to certain problems is preferrable to being railroaded into a linear path with a passive protagonist who lacks intelligence and ambition.

Moondoggie wrote...

How the heck do you connect to the character you are and the world you play in if you have no idea what the point of your character and why they are doing what they are doing is?

Imagination. You have choices, you can decide to fulfill what you want to do. What do you want your protagonist to do? Become an assassin, a mage, a warrior? Do you want to travel, seek out treasure, become a member of a particular faction? You have choices, and you can enable your protagonist to a specific path or a multitude of paths. I don't need or want a linear storyline or a fixed protagonist who I have little control over.

Moondoggie wrote...

Wiggle room for you to decide what kind of character you are playing is great as is deciding how they make decisions but i find the idea of just giving you some empty canvas and sticking you in an open map of side quests sort of laughable.

Why? Because it provides you with choices, and allows you to create your own motivations for your character? I don't want a linear storyline that gives me no significant choices and forces a pre-made protagonist on me. My Courier can work towards an independent Vegas while supporting the NCR against the Legion in certain fronts and motivate the Great Khans to find success elsewhere, while my assassin Dragonborn can invest time in the Companions until he achieves a certain "gift" and then delve into the Dark Brotherhood or my Dovahkiin mage can focus on his magical skills by heading to Winterhold and end the threat of the Eye of Magnus, while a fixed protagonist is fixed to a very linear and narrow path with little to no imput from me. I prefer freedom of choice.

Moondoggie wrote...

Aparently now the player has to do the job of the writers >.>

By giving us free reign with our protagonist instead of saddling us with a fixed protagonist who we may find repellant? I think New Vegas and Skyrim have shown that open worlds with developed characters and groups, and a multitude of choices, work out pretty well.

[CenturyCrow]

Elton John is dead wrote...
Seriously, all they need to do is go back to Origins' gameplay and that's it. Instant buck and praise again. I don't know why Bioware is doing this to themselves. It's like they hate Dragon Age!

Based on DA:O (the length of it's development) and some of the DLC, I got the impression that BW had a distinct plan in mind for the continuity series. But then came DA 2 and BW's marketing didn't seem to have anything to really tie into the original, except for the brief Flemeth appearance and hint about Morrigan; it seemed to me a lot was left hanging and unresolved from DA:O.

Then I factor in the multiplayer element they hinted at for DA 3 (and having stuck multiplayer into ME 3). Now BW is talking about looking at Skyrim. So I guess my impression of BW having a long term continuity to the series was wrong and BW never had much of a game plan after DA:O and seems to be winging it day by day. I'm not interested at all in DA 3 but for those who are, I hope it doesn't turn into a Frankenstein assembly of every game out there.

Modifié par CenturyCrow, 23 décembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[Xewaka]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
*Wishes for Bioware to copy the feeling of classless skill-based system*
*Gets cold-clocked by reality*

Ew, I'd be locked into playing a mage! 
Unless they make the Dark Ritual's suggested prophecy a reality.

TO be completely honest, I'd rather have a classless, level-less system, where XP is directly used to buy upgrades. Probably with limitations (such as "you need to have this much spent XP to access skills above this threshold).
Something similar to The Dark Eye, World of Darkness, Legend of the Five Rings, Ars Magica or Dark Heresy systems (to name a few).

[slimgrin]

CenturyCrow wrote...

So I guess my impression of BW having a long term continuity to the series was wrong and BW never had much of a game plan after DA:O and seems to be winging it day by day. I'm not interested at all in DA 3 but for those who are, I hope it doesn't turn into a Frankenstein assembly of every game out there.

This is my impression of the DA series and why I can't bring myself to care about DA3. It's already Frankenstien imo, as opposed to Mass Effect which has retained its identity. 

[Elhanan]

slimgrin wrote...

This is my impression of the DA series and why I can't bring myself to care about DA3. It's already Frankenstien imo, as opposed to Mass Effect which has retained its identity.

The reverse for me; much prefer the storylines of DA over that of ME. Shepard's dialogue often comes down to Paragon or Renegade; not many choices made between them. This is where I believe SWTOR is superior; lots of room in the middle ground to play for RP and mechanics. But either series has more depth in writing and characterization than anything seen in Skyrim, IMO.

If this standard is kept, and the freedom for CC and development from Skyrim is implemented, I would be more than happy to continue to see where DA is headed.

[Chromie]

Elhanan wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

This is my impression of the DA series and why I can't bring myself to care about DA3. It's already Frankenstien imo, as opposed to Mass Effect which has retained its identity.

The reverse for me; much prefer the storylines of DA over that of ME. Shepard's dialogue often comes down to Paragon or Renegade; not many choices made between them.

Dragon Age 2 is the same thing though.

[Morroian]

Elton John is dead wrote...

I hope whatever "cues" Bioware are taking from Bethesda aren't on gameplay or leveling. Quite frankly, what does Bethesda do that is any good? 

World building, the levelling system in Skyrim is actually good as opposed to Obliviions crapfest, and whilst the dungeons can be linear the background and incidental detail built into the quests is good. Most of the rest of the game systems are is OK, melee combat is better than Oblivion, ranged/mage combat is fine, in fact the dual wielding implementation is another great change.

CenturyCrow wrote...

Then I factor in the multiplayer element they hinted at for DA 3 (and having stuck multiplayer into ME 3). Now BW is talking about looking at Skyrim. So I guess my impression of BW having a long term continuity to the series was wrong and BW never had much of a game plan after DA:O and seems to be winging it day by day. I'm not interested at all in DA 3 but for those who are, I hope it doesn't turn into a Frankenstein assembly of every game out there.

You mean continuity in game design? Perhaps they didn't have a plan and indeed the reasons given for changes in DA2 were actually to establish a continuity that could be used going forward, but I don't see what so bad about assessing each game individually rather than  according to how similar it is to the previous game. 

Ringo12 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

The reverse for me; much prefer the storylines of DA over that of ME. Shepard's dialogue often comes down to Paragon or Renegade; not many choices made between them.

Dragon Age 2 is the same thing though.

As one who couldn't really role play in ME2 but found it very easy to do in DA2, no it isn't. 

Modifié par Morroian, 23 décembre 2011 - 10:09 .

[CenturyCrow]

Morroian wrote...

CenturyCrow wrote...
Then I factor in the multiplayer element they hinted at for DA 3 (and having stuck multiplayer into ME 3). Now BW is talking about looking at Skyrim. So I guess my impression of BW having a long term continuity to the series was wrong and BW never had much of a game plan after DA:O and seems to be winging it day by day. I'm not interested at all in DA 3 but for those who are, I hope it doesn't turn into a Frankenstein assembly of every game out there.

You mean continuity in game design?

No, a continuity of the story line. The Mass Effect series has a continuity of a story line with many of the same characters.
Not saying the warden should have appeared in DA 2 but DA:O ended abruptly with a lot of loose ends. And that DA 2 seemed more like an add-on DLC than an integral part of DA:O in a lot of ways. As if DA 2 veered off course of the groundwork done in DA:O. So I'm not interested at all in DA 3 or 4. And as I pointed out, DA:O was in development a very long time compared to DA 2, so I expected the series would have had a much better sense of continuity when it's labeled as DA 2. Hawke's story was okay by itself, but should have been advertised as DA: Hawke's story or something, not DA 2. As if there's still really a DA 2 out there somewhere.

Don't know if I made that more clear or not   doesn't matter. DA 2 was a disappointing end to the series for me.

Modifié par CenturyCrow, 23 décembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Chromie]

Morroian wrote...
As one who couldn't really role play in ME2 but found it very easy to do in DA2, no it isn't. 

*sigh* So maybe it had the opposite effect on other people? I had all the freedom to roleplay in Origins and I suddenly don't. Mass Effect never let me make my own character I was always Shepard but I could fill in the gaps. Hawke you can't even choose history, upbringing or anything it's already laid out for everyone in the codex.

[sympathyforsaren]

Just a little disclaimer: Skyrim's civil strife involving the Thalmor, Empire and Stormcloaks was about, eh, I dunno, a million times more interesting than Dragon Age II and their political story.

Take Hawke, a lame and cheesy character that is BioWare's character they let you rent, and his little poor issues and the poor little mages...how they are suppressed.

Then take the Thalmor elves of the Aldmeri Dominion...a race that is far advanced to others in an empire that is more powerful than Tamriel, now overseeing how Tamriel is functioning and is intervening in everything so they can carefully control and monitor the psychological, philosophical and political structure of Skyrim and Tamriel. Their goal: the slavery or elimination/eradication of all mortals and non-Thalmor, for they, in their own eyes, are a Superior Race with sophistication and benevolence.

Is Bethesda the best in writing? No. But there was some pretty solid writing in Skyrim. Their political sub-story was leagues better than BioWare's :-0

Modifié par sympathyforsaren, 24 décembre 2011 - 01:30 .

[Alpha-Centuri]

Reading the tomes found all around in Skyrim tells me that the backstory between Oblivion and Skyrim is actually pretty amazing. The Xanatos gambit by the Thalmor regarding the Redguard of Hammerfell, the current lose-lose in turns of the people of skyrim (Side with Stormcloaks, you weaken Tamriel, side with Imperial, you are doing what the Thalmor want).

All very compelling in ways that DA2 didn't really hit the spot for me. But then again, I just did one playthrough at a friend's house, so maybe I missed the underlying deepness...

[sympathyforsaren]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Reading the tomes found all around in Skyrim tells me that the backstory between Oblivion and Skyrim is actually pretty amazing. The Xanatos gambit by the Thalmor regarding the Redguard of Hammerfell, the current lose-lose in turns of the people of skyrim (Side with Stormcloaks, you weaken Tamriel, side with Imperial, you are doing what the Thalmor want).

All very compelling in ways that DA2 didn't really hit the spot for me. But then again, I just did one playthrough at a friend's house, so maybe I missed the underlying deepness...

I find it brilliant, too, how they are going for Tamriel's soul by in effect attempting to eliminate all connections and ties to Tiber Septim, while having agents dispersed for civil reconnaissance and field study. No doubt, as it stands, when they do decide to take over all of Tamriel, it will be so altered and spiritless and weak at varies sublevels, religiously, spiritually and politically, it is going to topple right over while allowing them a full transition. It was hard to decide to side with the Empire or the Stormcloaks...it was for me a weighty choice. I read in a dossier at the Thalmor Embassy near Solitude that the Thalmor seem happy the civil war is going on and hinted they may be systematically and methodically controlling and maintaining the civil war for a very specific reason.

War no doubt weakens fighting forces for a future invasion, and focus on civil unrest makes their integration and rooting of power and control less noticeable and more subtle. It's good to know that the return of the dragons has them perplexed and concerned...it instilled a little doubt into their minds, although it fortified their focus on the Blades.

Modifié par sympathyforsaren, 24 décembre 2011 - 02:09 .

[slimgrin]

Again, we're talking about a hybrid here where the story can take front stage, but there's still an amount of organic and open level design so that we aren't reminded  that this is a video game every time we come across a conveniently placed wall safe ( like in ME2 ) or every time we 'explore' a dungeon in DA:O. There was barely an illusion of, 'this is a real place you are exploring' In those games. It was more like 'this is a video game that will herd you from one area to the next'. Bioware needs to address this imo. They need to put the player in an environment that feels like it was created by the game's inhabitants, not a level designer.

Modifié par slimgrin, 24 décembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

frustratemyself wrote...

Ugh enough Skyrim ****** already.

Enough with the DA:O ****** already.
I predict that this thread will end up with people whining about how DA2 is the worst game ever made and bashing DA3(even before we've seen any information on it or get to play it)
I think rather than making it a sandbox, what they mean is make the quests more versatile(less linear) and possibly race selection.

Modifié par Andarthiel_Demigod, 24 décembre 2011 - 03:09 .

[Chuck_Vu]

Here's my take on Role Playing Games. It all hinges on choices and decisions. Loot does not make a RPG, nor does stats. It all hinges on choices and decisions. Choosing to break and enter every house in the game IS role playing and chosing not to steal is also role playing. Ignoring your prophesied role as "The One" is also role playing. Being railroaded to do "X" in order to advance is NOT role playing (because what if I decided that my character felt like going on a bender instead?). Skyrim has a main story (two if you consider the return of the dragons and the civil war) that you could pursue or ignore. It's what you choose to do or not to do that makes it a role playing game.

I think the classless system is brillant. In real life people are rarely ever just one thing. You could be a plumber and a computer guru who volunteers as a firefighter (I know a guy who is exactly that).

And I never understood how killing (or turning quest item x) made you better at picking locks.

And dear Bioware and other devs in the RPG biz (but mostly Bioware), can you surprise me and have choices other then "Save the princess and her puppy or murder every first born and rape the virgins". How about some grey on grey?

[slimgrin]

Chuck_Vu wrote...

Here's my take on Role Playing Games. It all hinges on choices and decisions. Loot does not make a RPG, nor does stats. 

That's like saying ammo type doesn't make a shooter. Everything else I agree with.

Modifié par slimgrin, 24 décembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[Chuck_Vu]

slimgrin wrote...

Chuck_Vu wrote...

Here's my take on Role Playing Games. It all hinges on choices and decisions. Loot does not make a RPG, nor does stats. 

That's like saying ammo type doesn't make a shooter. Everything else I agree with.

It's the choice to pick up loot or leave it is important, the loot is not.  If you wanted to role play as a miner, you really don't need loot (how is a silver warhamer of frost going to make you a better miner?)  And I doubt that the player character obsesses over his/her stats.  It's the Player that does that, not the PC.

[sympathyforsaren]

slimgrin wrote...

Again, we're talking about a hybrid here where the story can still take front stage, but there's an amount of organic and open level design so that we aren't reminded  that this is a video game every time we come across a conveniently placed wall safe ( like in ME2 ) or every time we 'explored' a dungeon in DA:O. There was barely an the illusion of, 'this is a real place you are exploring'. It was more like 'this is a video game that will herd you from one area to the next'. Bioware needs to address this imo. They need to put the player in an environment that feels like it was created by the game's inhabitants, not a level designer.

Spot on, Slimgrin

[Elhanan]

Ringo12 wrote...

*sigh* So maybe it had the opposite effect on other people? I had all the freedom to roleplay in Origins and I suddenly don't. Mass Effect never let me make my own character I was always Shepard but I could fill in the gaps. Hawke you can't even choose history, upbringing or anything it's already laid out for everyone in the codex.

In DA Origins, one literally had that, but it was not necessary in a storyline witha predetermined character. As Skyrim is a RPG with almost no information, DA2 is a RPG with most details already completed.

Personally, I would get bored playing both extremes constantly.

As far as an example of a mix, I would enjoy seeing Hawke, but with the CC freedom to play a Rogue with Heavy Armor, a Mage with weapons, and a Warrior with a longbow. Etc. Keep the dialogues, and open the restrictions on classes

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Hmmmn. I can't say this surprises me one bit. It sounds like typical EA, actually. EA doesn't innovate, they just copy what sells and whatever else you say about Skyrim, it's selling like hotcakes.

Personally I love sandbox gaming, but I find ES a dreadful bore. The RPG element is really weak, IMO. So weak that I barely consider it an RPG. If you look at my old posts you'll notice I often refer to Elder Scrolls as a "first person slasher". The character is pretty much irrelevant to the story. In ES games the plot happens to you, you don't really participate in it and while I may have been able to forgive that ten or fifteen years ago I expect much more from the Genre now.

But EA is not cut out for publishing RPGs. Building RPGs requires boldness, measured risk-taking, and innovation. This kind of seat of the pants design philosophy has served Bio well for many years, but it's just not compatible with EAs business model. EA is too risk averse to innovate. They really don't like to make new games at all. The bulk of their titles are artistic reskins of established formulas; racing games, FPS games, and sports games. It's much more their style to copy successful games than create new ones.

First Person Slashers would have a REAL appeal to EA. Of course they're going to add an MP element. All good first person shooters... erm... slashers... have multiplayer.

Can you say "Battlefield Thedas"?

At EA this is what passes for "innovation".

In a way it brings to mind all the companies that keep trying to challenge WoW. Nobody is going to take down WoW (except maybe blizzard). Everybody keeps trying to take it on by doing the same things. Why is anyone going to abandon an established WoW account to go start as a noob someplace else? It's about as stupid a marketing strategy as you can get.

Unfortunately unlike the MMO market, the "First Person Slasher" market isn't saturated. This is a marketing strategy that will work. There is a profit to be had in taking Bethesda's sloppy seconds. The mass market that the new Bio is chasing will prefer RPG light FPS titles to "real" RPGs. Regardless of quality these games will sell, even if they are nothing more than a way for Bethesda fans to pass the time between Elder Scrolls releases.

I think we need to expect more and more copycatting as the old Bio lets go it's last gasps and the new EA controlled Bio rises like a revenant from it's death bed.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 24 décembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[Elhanan]

sympathyforsaren wrote...

Just a little disclaimer: Skyrim's civil strife involving the Thalmor, Empire and Stormcloaks was about, eh, I dunno, a million times more interesting than Dragon Age II and their political story.

Take Hawke, a lame and cheesy character that is BioWare's character they let you rent, and his little poor issues and the poor little mages...how they are suppressed.

Then take the Thalmor elves of the Aldmeri Dominion...a race that is far advanced to others in an empire that is more powerful than Tamriel, now overseeing how Tamriel is functioning and is intervening in everything so they can carefully control and monitor the psychological, philosophical and political structure of Skyrim and Tamriel. Their goal: the slavery or elimination/eradication of all mortals and non-Thalmor, for they, in their own eyes, are a Superior Race with sophistication and benevolence.

Is Bethesda the best in writing? No. But there was some pretty solid writing in Skyrim. Their political sub-story was leagues better than BioWare's :-0

In a nutshell: Not!

The Thalmor are merely racist Elves to me; a possible reason for siding against their allies in the Empire. Personally, I try and fight aginst them, and leave the Empire alone. But that's me.

And while I have played ca.300 hrs in Skyrim thus far, not one Codex entry has been read; barely bother with the books except for IG clues. To be fair, this is much the same for the DA and ME series; if I wanted to read stuff in small print, I have the manuals....

I am not fond of the longer ME2 cutscenes and profanity that has made its way into the franchise. But I would take the writing of DA2 over that of Skyrim; also have ca.300 hrs there, too. It is not necessary to describe the wheel in each game, or force rhe need for a glossary. DA has done a great job of allowing much to play out in the game itself; no need for Codex or Wiki searches either. 

[Il Divo]

Elhanan wrote...

But I would take the writing of DA2 over that of Skyrim; also have ca.300 hrs there, too. It is not necessary to describe the wheel in each game, or force rhe need for a glossary. DA has done a great job of allowing much to play out in the game itself; no need for Codex or Wiki searches either. 

My issue with Skyrim is that the the civil war is more of a setting than it is an actual storyline. Playing through either the Stormcloak or Imperial factions is really just a series of military conquests that ends with the player winning Skyrim for their respective faction. That's where I think DA2's political story is still miles ahead; it's an actual story, which the game focuses on. Kirkwall's main conflict is between the Templars and Mages in Kirkwall , and how the city is about ready to explode with all the various factions vying for power. It's the critical problem which all TES games suffer from in attempting to give the player freedom.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 décembre 2011 - 05:13 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Just hack and slash son ... and be happy!

[ObserverStatus]

If what this article say is true, they're actually emulating a game that most of their fans LIKE this time, smart move.

Modifié par bobobo878, 24 décembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[sympathyforsaren]

Sure, the narrative and concentration is better in DAII, but not the underlying plot. For me, general plot makes or breaks. It's why up until now I've loved Mass Effect so much.

Dragon Age II had an intro, a stream of random, boring, events only 75% coherent that I couldn't care less about, and an irrelevant ending. In a word: dull.

That goes into personal preference on plots itself, but that's my opinion.

I personally would love to see a clone on DA:O with much better looting and classlessness. And, like I mentioned before, the meticulous attention to detail Bethesda put into Skyrim.

I want to rotate and zoom my loot in 3D. I want it to be detailed. I want lots of numbers and statistics. Open the world up a tad, add content that rivals TES and KoA: Reckoning and a story like Origins and it will do very well and be very profitable and very good.

Modifié par sympathyforsaren, 24 décembre 2011 - 06:17 .