372 réponses à ce sujet

[Stardusk78]

I don't like her much, I am the first to admit it but mostly because she is very unfeminine, brutish and butch to me but why do so many people hate the poetic aspect of her, which is one of her few redeeming qualities in my eyes?

[mybudgee]

I find it terribly unfortunate that any woman, fictional or not who displays any type of strength is inevitably labed a "butch" or "not feminine" as my ex-GF is very strong and smart AND sexy/feminine...god we men have it easy
Also I agree that the poetic side to Ash is very cool.

[V-rex]

Frankly, I have few reasons to hate Ashley and a plethora of reasons to like her, poetry being a major one of those.
My only guess is perhaps people weren't expecting her to randomly start quoting it while engaged in simple conversation. I mean if someone suddenly started saying all the lyrics to the song 'April Sun in Cuba' in the middle of a conversation people might get wierded out too.
Plus there's always the possibility that people just don't like the particular poems she says.

Personally, I never had a problem with it because as I've said many, many, many, MANY times prior I love Ashley's character and I've never had a problem with her poetry quotes as a result. If my Shepard is still widly in love with her even after Horizon, it's safe to say he isn't about to get turned off by some stuffy poems.
I reckon on average most people who hate on Ashley for quoting poetry had already decided that they didn't like her and thus just added 'wierd love of poetry' to the checklist of reasons. It isn't something I'd do (for a character anyway), but I can understand why one would do it.

After all, I did something similar after watching that awful movie 'Skyline', listing every single reason why I hated it, then going through it in my mind to find any other random details about the movie that I could remember so that I could hate that too.
In the end I found myself even hating the oxygen that people were breathing during the filming of that damned movie.

Modifié par V-rex, 21 décembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[V-rex]

mybudgee wrote...

I find it terribly unfortunate that any woman, fictional or not who displays any type of strength is inevitably labed a "butch" or "not feminine" as my ex-GF is very strong and smart AND sexy/feminine...god we men have it easy
Also I agree that the poetic side to Ash is very cool.

Also this.

[Stardusk78]

mybudgee wrote...

I find it terribly unfortunate that any woman, fictional or not who displays any type of strength is inevitably labed a "butch" or "not feminine" as my ex-GF is very strong and smart AND sexy/feminine...god we men have it easy
Also I agree that the poetic side to Ash is very cool.

Men have it easy? what in ME's universe? or do you mean in real life, because I hope you are joking.

Yeah, her poetry stuff is ok.

Her strength? racist remarks are her strength? Weird.

[CptData]

Stardusk78 wrote...

I don't like her much, I am the first to admit it but mostly because she is very unfeminine, brutish and butch to me but why do so many people hate the poetic aspect of her, which is one of her few redeeming qualities in my eyes?

Don't ask me. I think it's less her poetic trait - a lot of people simply don't like her because of her religiosity (uhh c'mone ... just because she believes in God she's no zealot) and her so called "racism" (if Ash is a racist, then 99,9999% of mankind are racists too - people call her a "racist" for nothing. She's just reserved towards aliens - or any other human she doesn't know well enough to trust him or her.).

Think that "poetic trait" doesn't really make a lot of people hate her.

mybudgee wrote...

I find it terribly unfortunate that any
woman, fictional or not who displays any type of strength is inevitably
labed a "butch" or "not feminine" as my ex-GF is very strong and smart
AND sexy/feminine...god we men have it easy
Also I agree that the poetic side to Ash is very cool.

This. Ashley is - compared to some other women in the series - very feminine. Actually, of the squad only Liara is more feminine, and mostly because she got designed as such character. Must say, that "over-feminity" of Liara is one of the reasons why I can't fall for her.

I'm more a dude who loves Ashley-type women. Strong, determined - that's not "un-feminine", that's dead sexy.

[Stardusk78]

V-rex wrote...

Frankly, I have few reasons to hate Ashley and a plethora of reasons to like her, poetry being a major one of those.
My only guess is perhaps people weren't expecting her to randomly start quoting it while engaged in simple conversation. I mean if someone suddenly started saying all the lyrics to the song 'April Sun in Cuba' in the middle of a conversation people might get wierded out too.
Plus there's always the possibility that people just don't like the particular poems she says.

Personally, I never had a problem with it because as I've said many, many, many, MANY times prior I love Ashley's character and I've never had a problem with her poetry quotes as a result. If my Shepard is still widly in love with her even after Horizon, it's safe to say he isn't about to get turned off by some stuffy poems.
I reckon on average most people who hate on Ashley for quoting poetry had already decided that they didn't like her and thus just added 'wierd love of poetry' to the checklist of reasons. It isn't something I'd do (for a character anyway), but I can understand why one would do it.

After all, I did something similar after watching that awful movie 'Skyline', listing every single reason why I hated it, then going through it in my mind to find any other random details about the movie that I could remember so that I could hate that too.
In the end I found myself even hating the oxygen that people were breathing during the filming of that damned movie.

You can have differentiated dislike, as I said I dislike her for many reasons, her poetry being her only redeeming feature.

[CptData]

Stardusk78 wrote...

You can have differentiated dislike, as I said I dislike her for many reasons, her poetry being her only redeeming feature.

Actually, her slight shift in views of aliens (from reserved to trust of Garrus, Wrex, Tali & even Liara) is far more redeeming. It's sad you can't paragonize Ashley when not going down the romance path - which makes Ashley looking bad for those who never romanced her.

That poetic trait is very interesting ... however, I got attached to her by other reasons. That poetry is more a detail than a defining trait.

[Stardusk78]

CptData wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

I don't like her much, I am the first to admit it but mostly because she is very unfeminine, brutish and butch to me but why do so many people hate the poetic aspect of her, which is one of her few redeeming qualities in my eyes?

Don't ask me. I think it's less her poetic trait - a lot of people simply don't like her because of her religiosity (uhh c'mone ... just because she believes in God she's no zealot) and her so called "racism" (if Ash is a racist, then 99,9999% of mankind are racists too - people call her a "racist" for nothing. She's just reserved towards aliens - or any other human she doesn't know well enough to trust him or her.).

Think that "poetic trait" doesn't really make a lot of people hate her.

mybudgee wrote...

I find it terribly unfortunate that any
woman, fictional or not who displays any type of strength is inevitably
labed a "butch" or "not feminine" as my ex-GF is very strong and smart
AND sexy/feminine...god we men have it easy
Also I agree that the poetic side to Ash is very cool.

This. Ashley is - compared to some other women in the series - very feminine. Actually, of the squad only Liara is more feminine, and mostly because she got designed as such character. Must say, that "over-feminity" of Liara is one of the reasons why I can't fall for her.

I'm more a dude who loves Ashley-type women. Strong, determined - that's not "un-feminine", that's dead sexy.

I guess you can't argue about taste but Ashely is GI Jane for me, yeah I romance her in a playthrough but seriously, oh and the religious stuff, it's the goddaam 22nd century, come on!

[CptData]

Stardusk78 wrote...

I guess you can't argue about taste but Ashely is GI Jane for me, yeah I romance her in a playthrough but seriously, oh and the religious stuff, it's the goddaam 22nd century, come on!

Lets ignore the "taste" and go for her traits. Especially religiosity. See, I'm an atheist. My fiancee is christian. My sister even converted to the Jehovah's Witnesses. At first I was shocked - and so was my family - but now we're okay with that since ... yeah. It's just that, the more you try to convince someone his/her way is wrong, the more you're losing this person.

So I've got some insight in that stuff. Ashley is a weak believer by today standards. Besides that, mankind had more than 50.000 years to believe in something, either spirits, ancients, multiple gods or just one. Do you believe mankind will overcome superstition within two centuries? No Sir, I don't think so.
Therefore it makes sense Ash still believes in God. She's just no fundamentalist. She has sex before marriage. She's not believing in the "Creator God" like Creationists do. Maybe Ash believes in a "Creator God" being the cause for the Big Bang ... and that's no real issue to me.

I'd say religions do have their place in the 22nd century. Just because most SciFi stories don't mention religions it doesn't mean they're not there. I bet even in Star Trek you'll face muslims, christians, jews etc quite frequently - they're just no longer use their religion as reason for fights.

And actually, that's all I want as an atheist: I don't care if my neighbor believes in God or not. As long as that neighbor is happy and don't try to convert me, he can be a friend.


Therefore: Ashley's religiosity is a non-issue to me.

[Stardusk78]

CptData wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

I guess you can't argue about taste but Ashely is GI Jane for me, yeah I romance her in a playthrough but seriously, oh and the religious stuff, it's the goddaam 22nd century, come on!

Lets ignore the "taste" and go for her traits. Especially religiosity. See, I'm an atheist. My fiancee is christian. My sister even converted to the Jehovah's Witnesses. At first I was shocked - and so was my family - but now we're okay with that since ... yeah. It's just that, the more you try to convince someone his/her way is wrong, the more you're losing this person.

So I've got some insight in that stuff. Ashley is a weak believer by today standards. Besides that, mankind had more than 50.000 years to believe in something, either spirits, ancients, multiple gods or just one. Do you believe mankind will overcome superstition within two centuries? No Sir, I don't think so.
Therefore it makes sense Ash still believes in God. She's just no fundamentalist. She has sex before marriage. She's not believing in the "Creator God" like Creationists do. Maybe Ash believes in a "Creator God" being the cause for the Big Bang ... and that's no real issue to me.

I'd say religions do have their place in the 22nd century. Just because most SciFi stories don't mention religions it doesn't mean they're not there. I bet even in Star Trek you'll face muslims, christians, jews etc quite frequently - they're just no longer use their religion as reason for fights.

And actually, that's all I want as an atheist: I don't care if my neighbor believes in God or not. As long as that neighbor is happy and don't try to convert me, he can be a friend.


Therefore: Ashley's religiosity is a non-issue to me.

I probably couldn't get past that issue I have to say as I intensely dislike religion, funny how Mordin explored cross species religion during his crisis. At the end of the day she is just too GI Jane for me, a man trapped in a woman's body.

[Sgt Bilko]

ahh no ash is all woman romanced her on the first play-through liara the second. But the religious thing was a refreshing surprise though, i mean it was nice of bioware to include it in same as CptData wrote about Mordin's religious crisis, sometimes people need sometime to believe in. I didn't like ash that much cos of the sob story about her sis. just my 2 cents

[CptData]

Stardusk78 wrote...

I probably couldn't get past that issue I have to say as I intensely dislike religion, funny how Mordin explored cross species religion during his crisis. At the end of the day she is just too GI Jane for me, a man trapped in a woman's body.

That's okay to me.
Actually, I like Ash for being a tad "manly". She's still far more feminine than most of the women I know: she looks beautiful, has a very soft and tempting side, values family ... lets say, if you can go past her soldier outside, you'll find a woman that just wants to find the fitting partner and become happy with him. That makes her quite feminine.
Als her passionate trait - ever saw that sex scene - is very feminine. She's not on top. She's not too dominant. She loves to surrender to Shepard - at least a bit. Quite feminine ...

Liara is full blown feminine. She's so feminine BW had to break her character to make her to the new Shadow Broker. As I said before in another thread, if BW would have done that to Ashley, I couldn't like her anymore. Doesn't mean I don't like Liara, I just think BW didn't do a favor to her.

Lets say it's all a matter of taste.


And the religion stuff? Hey, guess we're coming down the same road. When my sis converted I built up an intense dislike for religions. That vanished over time and now I'm okay. Let ppl believe what they want to. As long as they're not trying to convert others, I couldn't care less. So maybe you just need a bit more time or so to find peace in that matter.
Right now I'm interested in multiple religions - I simply want to learn as much as possible. The danger of "getting converted" is zero, I'm quite determined in that matter.

Sgt Bilko wrote...

ahh no ash is all woman romanced her on the first play-through liara the second. But the religious thing was a refreshing surprise though, i mean it was nice of bioware to include it in same as CptData wrote about Mordin's religious crisis, sometimes people need sometime to believe in. I didn't like ash that much cos of the sob story about her sis. just my 2 cents

Huh? I didn't mention Mordin here.

Modifié par CptData, 21 décembre 2011 - 12:05 .

[Sgt Bilko]

ahh my bad Stardusk78 did sorry hehe whoops

[Skullheart]

Ashley is one of my favorite female characters. Sompe people hate her because they don't (and maybe don't want) undrstand her.

Racism

She´s not a racist. She might distrust aliens because of her family history.

She has good reasons to distrust Wrex, Garrus, Tali and Liara at the beginning of the game. Her family has tried to redem her grandfather name since FCW. She has given all of her life and dedication to the Alliance.

How you expect her to react when some Aliens (outiders of the Alliance) boards the most modern vessel of the Alliance?

From a military POV I understand her concerns.

Not Femenine

Really? All I see is a woman secure of herself regarding relationships. She says that Shepard has to work to get her. She isn't an easy girls like others.

Religious

Some people are uppset by Ash being religious in a science fiction game, but I don't see much people being upset of the asaris believing in their godess.

The game never reveal what her religion is, but is really bad having faith ind a greater power?

And this is coming from an atheist.I might not believe in god, but I don't have any problem with people believing in god (unless they are zealots)

Poetry

Why would you hate her for that? Is too bad for a woman knowing how to fire every weapon from an arsenal and also appreciate literature?

[Creedio]

why hate someone for being unfeminine in the first place?

[BatmanPWNS]

That's just an excuse for them to hate on Ash.

[AlexMBrennan]

She´s not a racist.

Perhaps, but a few of her comments are way out of line - "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" while her superior office is talking to an alien ambassador, etc.

She has good reasons to distrust [...]Garrus

What would those be? Garrus is a C-Sec officer charged with investigate a Spectre, suggesting that he has reasonably high clearance. Further, the turians co-developed the Normandy - they don't have to get a spy on Shepard's crew to steal the plans because they already have them.

Some people are uppset by Ash being religious in a science fiction game, but I don't see much people being upset of the asaris believing in their godess.

Well, Ash is the only character to actually discuss this in any detail in ME1; the asari religion is mostly represented by "By the Goddess" exclamations.

Poetry
Why would you hate her for that?

Why do you assume that poetry is necessarily positive? It's a hobby, and just like skydiving it's neither inherently positive nor negative. What could, however, annoy is that she always insists on quoting literature, which those not interested in literature might find tiring (because they still want to romance her they obviously won't touch the negative responses).
I would conjecture that those who tend to play games like ME don't tend to be huge fans of literature (otherwise they'd be reading, not playing ME)

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[CptData]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

She´s not a racist.

Perhaps, but a few of her comments are way out of line - "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" while her superior office is talking to an alien ambassador, etc.

BW stated once that particular line is bugged.
Either it was never intended to be used in "generic banter" or it should have been used while watching a keeper. And tbh, those keepers don't really look like sapient beings.

Some people are uppset by Ash being religious in a science fiction game, but I don't see much people being upset of the asaris believing in their godess.

Well, Ash is the only character to actually discuss this in any detail in ME1; the asari religion is mostly represented by "By the Goddess" exclamations.

I can't see why ppl feel offended by a person that simply tells two or three additional lines regarding religions. It's not that Ash tries to convert Shepard. Neither does Liara or any other Asari.

Poetry
Why would you hate her for that?

Why do you assume that poetry is necessarily positive? It's a hobby, and just like skydiving it's neither inherently positive nor negative. What could, however, annoy is that she always insists on quoting literature, which those not interested in literature might find tiring (because they still want to romance her they obviously won't touch the negative responses).
I would conjecture that those who tend to play games like ME don't tend to be huge fans of literature (otherwise they'd be reading, not playing ME)

If you don't like poetry, Ashley's quotes can annoy you, I concur. It's a "neutral" trait. Actually, it's not more or less annoying than her religiosity (if feeling offended at all). Actually, Ash has far more lines regaring poetry than religion.

[AlexMBrennan]

BW stated once that particular line is bugged.

I am aware of that, but that doesn't change how the character will be seen by the player.

[Spoiledrotten]

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

Not very politically correct, no. But it's not really racist either.

Or are you telling me that hanar don't look like jellyfish, keepers like praying mantises or elcor like elephants? Personally, I think they do, so I can see where she's coming from. It's not racism, it's an observation. Poorly worded one, maybe, but still, there is no malice behind those words.

I would conjecture that those who tend to play games like ME don't tend to be huge fans of literature (otherwise they'd be reading, not playing ME)

Can't people like both? I do.

-------------

As for why people hate Ashley for her poetry, I don't know. I think that they just don't like her, it's an emotional response they then try to rationalize.

However, I did find her reciting poetry a bit... Awkward. Probably because there is little to no lead up to it. It felt kind of unnatural to me. I never met anyone who recited poetry during our conversation.
I still think that her interest in it gives her some added depth, and makes her seem more real as a character.

[CptData]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

BW stated once that particular line is bugged.


I am aware of that, but that doesn't change how the character will be seen by the player.

Accepted.
I see that one as a glitch, not as part of Ashley's character. It's actually one of those bugs BW really should have fixed.

Maybe that's why I consider Ash not as a racist. She just doesn't trust anyone easily - regardless if that someone is alien or human. In her eyes everyone has to earn her respect and trust first. Which is quite understandable when knowing more about her family's story.

[DonutsDealer]

Because she is very hostile towards Liara, which I find pretty annoying and not likeable.

Modifié par DonutsDealer, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:58 .