59 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Zanallen wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Why should an armour suddenly magically change it apearance because its worn by an elf or a dwarf instead of a human? It makes no sense.

In that regard, why should the armor magically change size to fit people of different builds without the PC heading over to an armorer and having it refitted?

Warriors usually have some armouring-skills. It can easily be passed off as one of them tweaking the armour abit. Completely changing the appearance of the armour, though, is a completely different beast.

[CuriousArtemis]

Zanallen wrote...

Hm...They could have companion specific armor sets. These sets could change the companion's appearance if they wear the whole set or maybe just the body piece. I guess there could be non-specific outfits as well that have no change on their iconic appearance.

I like that  I'd be okay with having to get the whole set in order to change appearance.  Would give me something to work toward.

[Zanallen]

Rawgrim wrote...

Warriors usually have some armouring-skills. It can easily be passed off as one of them tweaking the armour abit. Completely changing the appearance of the armour, though, is a completely different beast.

How is personalizing the armor to fit a character's personality any more difficult than completely reforging a set of dwarven mail to fit a kossith?

[Rawgrim]

Refitting can be done by shortening or extending the straps for the armour. It doesn`t need to be alot of hasse. You don`t need a forge to do it. Personalizing it, would require a forge + artistry - prettu much melting it down and making a brand new armour.

[Zanallen]

Rawgrim wrote...

Refitting can be done by shortening or extending the straps for the armour. It doesn`t need to be alot of hasse. You don`t need a forge to do it. Personalizing it, would require a forge + artistry - prettu much melting it down and making a brand new armour.

Er, no. Adjusting the straps would not make a set of armor made for a dwarf be viable for humans and especially not a kossith. Or vice-versa. Both options would require quite a bit of work realistically.

[Wolf]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Gaiden96 wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

I totally hate it. It breaks immersion. It's abstract and symbolic rather than tangible. Moving DA2 yet another step into a drivel push-the-button-console anime game, which is the brilliant plan I gather. The character's visuals should be under player control and also correspond to and give visual clues about what is worn.
This **** attitude belongs in an old scrolling shooter or platformer, not in a modern RPG.

P.S. Big reason behind my bad attitude to this, is that I disagree about all that "iconic look" and "identity" philosophy. It's not the mindset with how you should approach the design of  a party-cRPG, in my opinion. There's something fundamentally wrong going on.

You didn't seem to read the part where he mentions that they are experimenting with having the outfit AND the armor at the same time. And besides, if you can have what you love and others can too what is the problem?

Also, I didn't know there was a specific mindset you need when playing a party-based cRPG. <_<

He a little upset because it will have no visual effect. It will only affect the stats. The only time he could see the armor visually is if you put it on Hawke. It is a compromise which is different from DAO where you put a piece of armor on a companion and see the visual representation.

What I meant was that they are experimenting on having the armor and the outfit's visual appearence affect one other. That is what I meant. Guess I could have worded it a bit better...

Modifié par Gaiden96, 22 décembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[Riknas]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I totally hate it. It breaks immersion. It's abstract and symbolic rather than tangible. Moving DA2 yet another step into a drivel push-the-button-console anime game, which is the brilliant plan I gather. The character's visuals should be under player control and also correspond to and give visual clues about what is worn.
This **** attitude belongs in an old scrolling shooter or platformer, not in a modern RPG.

P.S. Big reason behind my bad attitude to this, is that I disagree about all that "iconic look" and "identity" philosophy. It's not the mindset with how you should approach the design of  a party-cRPG, in my opinion. There's something fundamentally wrong going on.

I don't understand how giving people more customization than they had in DA2 is actually encouraging more reflex/action driven play styles.

This is an excellent compromise, actually. Giving back control to the player in terms of stats and appearance while giving each character more defined and tailored appearances, as opposed to the odd ability for armor to morph to fit whoever puts it on (regardless of who may have worn it before). Indeed, being able to do that and better control the stats than last time? If anything, it adds more immersion with a much smaller suspension of disbelief factor. The only real question is how many outfits there are in the first place.

If we can also affect the appearance further using accessory items, that would be great.

Because these are characters we are being introduced to, rather than making on our own, it makes sense for them to each have a sense of identify. Because they're supposed to. There are no rules on how a game like this is supposed to be made.

[devSin]

The only thing that keeps me from being totally satisfied with this is that it still leaves the sense of progression off the table.

Characters need to look cooler when they get tougher. In Origins (and similar games), this translates into you having access to ever-better equipment, causing appearance to change when it is equipped.

In Dragon Age II (and potentially the new system, depending on how they structure the alternate outfit options), you almost don't get any of this. Aveline improves by act, and the twins will change once based on story decisions, but everybody else remains constant. No matter how good they get (or how good the corresponding Hawke equipment gets), visually, they're identical to when they first joined your party and could barely wrangle a nug.

So for me, the relation of specific equipment to appearance isn't as important as the relation of capability to appearance. I should be able to tell how cool you are at least in part by the way you look.

[Rawgrim]

Zanallen wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Refitting can be done by shortening or extending the straps for the armour. It doesn`t need to be alot of hasse. You don`t need a forge to do it. Personalizing it, would require a forge + artistry - prettu much melting it down and making a brand new armour.

Er, no. Adjusting the straps would not make a set of armor made for a dwarf be viable for humans and especially not a kossith. Or vice-versa. Both options would require quite a bit of work realistically.

The point was: Refitting a set of armour takes ALOT less time than changing it completely from a dwarven armour to one of elven design.

[Zanallen]

Rawgrim wrote...

The point was: Refitting a set of armour takes ALOT less time than changing it completely from a dwarven armour to one of elven design.

But that isn't what the other poster was talking about. It would be the same suit of armor for the most part, but with different variations per character. One set of Legion of the Dead armor would not suddenly be ancient elven armor just because you equip it to Merrill.

[Realmzmaster]

simfamSP wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

@DiegoRaphael,

Your idea is cool. The amount of resources it would consume would be a big consideration. Basically you are talking about the way it was done in DAO. It is a resource hungry approach. Sometime may have to be left out to achieve that result (like a voiced PC which I am sure some will not mind or a reduction in quests).

I know managing resources is important and all...but we are talking about a HUGE company here, this isn't Bioware from the 90s this is Bioware. Now it's not as huge as Bethesda or Blizzard, but it's still pretty big. I'm sure Bioware could make a game that looks and feels new instead of cutting back on everything. 

DA:O is one game that was amazing but it still didn't feel very polished. Couldn't they make DA3 polished and amazing?

Yes, EA is a HUGE company Bioware is a division of that company. Ea has many different products going on at any one time. All of those projects have a budget. Bioware as a Division has an overall budget which includes all the projects Bioware is engaged in. That means SWTOR, Mass Effect and any other projects. Dragon Age is just one of those projects. Also note that Bioware does not have separate art departments for each product. It has one art department that has teams working on different products. The same with the other departments.

As I have stated before if you or Valve or Activision-Blizzard you can take your time making games because you have a steady cash flow. The other companies including EA do not have that luxury. If SWTOR takes off EA make be in that rare class, but right now it is not.

[Realmzmaster]

Zanallen wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The point was: Refitting a set of armour takes ALOT less time than changing it completely from a dwarven armour to one of elven design.

But that isn't what the other poster was talking about. It would be the same suit of armor for the most part, but with different variations per character. One set of Legion of the Dead armor would not suddenly be ancient elven armor just because you equip it to Merrill.

DAO and other games have allowed different races to wear the same armor for convinence and gameplay sake. Armor that is crafted for a dwarf should not in any way shape or form be able to fit a kossith who stands near 7 feet. or more without some serious alterations. The game suspends belief and realism in this intance. The same can be said for humans of different sizes. If the armor was made for a midget it will not fit the average height human.

That kind of realism is set aside for the sake of gameplay. Now if the characters are of approximately the same height and weight it could then be possible to switch pieces between them.

Most gamers would not be happy if all of sudden you find that cool piece of dwarven armor plate and you have no dwarfs in your party. So the armor through magic is altered instantly to fit anyone.

In real life armor has to be fitted to the person to have a good fit. Anyone else wearing the armor would have discomfort or be unable to wear it.

[Carmen_Willow]

I want my companions to look cooler over time, to have better armor over time. What is the sense of finding all that great armor or buying all that great armor if you can't wear it, your companions can't wear it, and you can only get a copper if you sell it. I hated that about this game. There was so much armor that really would have looked good on my companions that no one got to wear, not even me because I was not a {insert rogue, mage or warrior here}. Very frustrating.

[Rawgrim]

I agree with Carmen. Not being able to wear a certain outfit, just because my character steals stuff for a living, is just plain dumb.

[LarryDavid]

The solution is rather simple : underwear customization!!!!!!! This way managing your stats won't conflict with the iconic look. Nugbone corsets, Halla fur socks, ...

[Uccio]

"Iconic look" is just a cooler way to say "we are lazy".

Modifié par Ukki, 22 décembre 2011 - 07:04 .

[Gemini1179]

Personally, it would say a lot to me as a customer and fan if a piece of armour placed on Isabela looked like was actually on her body model and not on "Generic Female model 2". It was both a blessing and a curse in DAO. Morrigan clearly had a different body model when she wore her custom robes, etc. If BW took the time to create several sets of armour that fit on several body types it would show a dedication to the game that we didn't see in DA2.

Look at what SWTOR does for companions if it seems like "too much work". In fact, BW should definitely lookt at SWTOR for their customization ideas for companions. There are tons of hairstyles alone for Kira Carsen, etc.

[bEVEsthda]

Ukki wrote...

"Iconic look" is just a cooler way to say "we are lazy".

Not really.
It's saying "We're no longer designing games for how a previous successful designer thinks our gamers would want them , but rather letting our marketing people design the game for how they think it would look cool in their trailers and marketing, and how it fits into their dream of a complete multi-franchise."

That's where we are.  This is game designing by marketing dudes..

[Fast Jimmy]

I offer up a suggestion to the forums then... how about anywhere from six to eight outfits per companion. But only six to eight outfits for the Player Character as well (per class, of course).

This way, the design team doesn't have to create 30 pieces of armor just for the PC, then only 2 or 3 outfits for companions. Instead, your PC can only upgrade or find character-specific equipment.

No looting "generic shield #2" or a host of helmets, gauntlets or boots... variety for all, but limited variety for all.

You still could loot weapons, rings, necklaces and other accessories like belts. That way you can still find ways to generate income by looting dead things/people.

How do those waters sound?

[schalafi]

Does Bioward distinguish between the money earned by DA:O, and what is earned by ME and Me2, or is it not all shared by the company? Also they now have a mmo that is a pay to play type, which should bring in a lot of $$$. So why can't DA3 go back to the traditional way to acquire armor, buying it or looting it, and have it interchangeable with npcs and the pc, like it was in DA:O and all the other previous games, excluding Jade Empire?

I hated the whole armor thing in DA2, I never could tell that there was any difference between the original armor and the upgrades. I got tired of seeing everyone in the same armor for the whole game, Ok so Ander's armor changed color, and the Guard Captain got a uniform with a scarf around her neck. That's not my idea of what a Bioware rpg should be like, and this new idea sounds like more cost cutting.

Let us have the old way of using armor and items, as well as interchanging weapons, if we want. I liked it the way it used to be.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I offer up a suggestion to the forums then... how about anywhere from six to eight outfits per companion. But only six to eight outfits for the Player Character as well (per class, of course).

This way, the design team doesn't have to create 30 pieces of armor just for the PC, then only 2 or 3 outfits for companions. Instead, your PC can only upgrade or find character-specific equipment.

No looting "generic shield #2" or a host of helmets, gauntlets or boots... variety for all, but limited variety for all.

You still could loot weapons, rings, necklaces and other accessories like belts. That way you can still find ways to generate income by looting dead things/people.

How do those waters sound?

So one would have to buy the entire outfit to upgrade and could not interchange pieces from two different sets? So if a piece of an outfit were found it could not be worn until the entire outfit is found? No armor could be found off of foes that are defeated. just other equipment. Do I have the gist of what you are saying?

[Realmzmaster]

schalafi wrote...

Does Bioward distinguish between the money earned by DA:O, and what is earned by ME and Me2, or is it not all shared by the company? Also they now have a mmo that is a pay to play type, which should bring in a lot of $$$. So why can't DA3 go back to the traditional way to acquire armor, buying it or looting it, and have it interchangeable with npcs and the pc, like it was in DA:O and all the other previous games, excluding Jade Empire?

I hated the whole armor thing in DA2, I never could tell that there was any difference between the original armor and the upgrades. I got tired of seeing everyone in the same armor for the whole game, Ok so Ander's armor changed color, and the Guard Captain got a uniform with a scarf around her neck. That's not my idea of what a Bioware rpg should be like, and this new idea sounds like more cost cutting.

Let us have the old way of using armor and items, as well as interchanging weapons, if we want. I liked it the way it used to be.

Not how businesses work. All projects are assigned a budget. Bioware is a division of EA. Bioware/EA has more than one project going at any given time all requiring resources.   All money goes back to the parent company. Also the profit from SWTOR has to be shared with LucasArts who holds the rights to Star Wars in the form of royalty payments. Since SWTOR has just launced it will be a while before it generates (if ever) the money WOW makes.

Now Bioware maybe able to do what you ask in a 3 to 5 year development time like Skyrim. If you are willing to wait that long. But the longer the development time the more likely Dragon Age could be pushed back on the burner for projects that take a shorter amount of time and deliver more of a profit.

[Wolf]

Realmzmaster wrote...

schalafi wrote...

Does Bioward distinguish between the money earned by DA:O, and what is earned by ME and Me2, or is it not all shared by the company? Also they now have a mmo that is a pay to play type, which should bring in a lot of $$$. So why can't DA3 go back to the traditional way to acquire armor, buying it or looting it, and have it interchangeable with npcs and the pc, like it was in DA:O and all the other previous games, excluding Jade Empire?

I hated the whole armor thing in DA2, I never could tell that there was any difference between the original armor and the upgrades. I got tired of seeing everyone in the same armor for the whole game, Ok so Ander's armor changed color, and the Guard Captain got a uniform with a scarf around her neck. That's not my idea of what a Bioware rpg should be like, and this new idea sounds like more cost cutting.

Let us have the old way of using armor and items, as well as interchanging weapons, if we want. I liked it the way it used to be.

Not how businesses work. All projects are assigned a budget. Bioware is a division of EA. Bioware/EA has more than one project going at any given time all requiring resources.   All money goes back to the parent company. Also the profit from SWTOR has to be shared with LucasArts who holds the rights to Star Wars in the form of royalty payments. Since SWTOR has just launced it will be a while before it generates (if ever) the money WOW makes.

Now Bioware maybe able to do what you ask in a 3 to 5 year development time like Skyrim. If you are willing to wait that long. But the longer the development time the more likely Dragon Age could be pushed back on the burner for projects that take a shorter amount of time and deliver more of a profit.

You guys don't seem to grasp something. In his post Mike talked about their experiments with armor and outfits being worn together and BOTH being visible. He also said we should expect any changes to those allegation to move towards MORE customization, not LESS. If we can all just show Bioware that this is a compromise (which really isn't one as both parties get what they want) that we all can agree to, they will most likely commit more resources to this end and we will all end up with (most likely) one of the great RPG masterpieces of this generation (like Origins).
C'mon guys read the whole post and then comment!

Modifié par Gaiden96, 23 décembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[Realmzmaster]

I said it was a good compromise back on page 1. I am simply trying to point out the reality of the situation especially when it comes to resources and finances. There must be a compelling reason for a company to invest money in the customization some gamers want. It took Bioware 5 plus years to get DAO into retail during which time the company was desperately looking for money and partners to keep it going. Bioware might still be an independent firm if it had watch the bottomline better.