107 réponses à ce sujet

[Lughsan35]

KalosCast wrote...

The tower can be reached on one day by boat from Redcliffe according to Teagan, fail.

And yet you may not have freed the tower or even KNOW the tower needs to be freed at that point and the time you are asleep in the Fade can be construed as a couple of days at the very least...

And who's to say there is a boat there to take you.. I looked at the docks before hand and saw no boats...so fail...

And how quick would you be to get in a little dingy after having watched living corpses boil out of the lake ??

Not very quick you say? 

I thought so...

[The Angry One]

Why do people rag on Alistair?

He's handsome, witty and clever. Boys hate that.

[Lughsan35]

TremCenwyth wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...
Indeed that was the point...

Really? Because you sure made it seem as if the point was that those of us who like Alistair must by that fact be goody-two-shoes "paladins" who would end up making an irresponsible decision out of some misguided sense of fairness:

Lughsan35 wrote....

So all you Paladins would prefer to make a bad situation much much worse instead of simply just killing one person..

Lets keep things in context here -- your comment there was made in response to people arguing that Alistair is a likeable character. Sure seems like you were operating under the assumption that those who like Alistair necessarily agreed with his opinion on the Redcliffe dilemma.

But I guess I just misunderstood, eh? 

The so all you Paladins comment is more aimed at those who THINK like he does...not necessarily those that like him or call him friend.

Sten for instance would tell him,
Alacrity was key here.

[TremCenwyth]

The Angry One wrote...

He's handsome... Boys hate that.

Really? Well this boy actually loves that about him. C'mere Alistair, my gorgeous little Templar..


I wouldn't call him clever though. I think you're being a bit too generous there.

[Fulgrim88]

We're at an impasse when it comes to the definition of that one, heroic moment, then.

For me, executing Loghain ala "Eye for an Eye" is no more heroic than the alternative of becoming a sad drunkard. His thirst for vengeance being his flaw, the only potential for greatness i can see lies in the act of overcoming this thirst.
His obvious inability to stand up for that task is what makes his "rise to the heroic" impossible for me, in any possible outcome and reduces him to the antithesis of the definition mentioned in my earlier post.

You got a point on "just one misstep away from complete ruin and self-destruction", though

(Who kills the Archdemon, actually didn't mean all that much to me. Every Grey Warden has pretty much given up his ties to life long ago. Self Sacrifice is only a matter of time, not a matter of heroism.)

Edit: I apologize for the messy english, i happen to be sitting at home with one hell of a headache. No idea why i tend to get into forum discussions in moments like this;)

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:28 .

[TremCenwyth]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

For me, executing Loghain ala "Eye for an Eye" is no more heroic than the alternative of becoming a sad drunkard. His thirst for vengeance being his flaw, the only potential for greatness i can see lies in the act of overcoming this thirst.
His obvious inability to stand up for that task is what makes his "rise to the heroic" impossible for me, in any possible outcome and reduces him to the antithesis of the definition mentioned in my earlier post.

Well I'm not calling his executing Loghain a heroic act. I'm calling his potential killing of the archdemon a heroic act. But I do see where you're coming from because, for those of us who consider his 'vengeance at any price' a flaw, Alistair really does not overcome it -- it is his Achilles heel to the very end. The way I see it though is that he has the chance to redeem himself.

Of course, your point about Grey Wardens having all but already sacrificed themselves anyway is a good point, and that does lessen the good deed to an extent. But I would add that he could have instead chosen to live 30 years give or take (due to taint) and not faced death right then and there. He's already in his late 20s I would guesstimate, so if he doesn't sacrifice himself to the archdemon he could potentially live a relatively long life and die in his 50s. So there's still some meaning to the sacrifice Alistair could make.

I would say that by your reasoning Loghain's sacrifice would be even less significant. First of all, he becomes a Grey Warden only when faced with death. And adding to that is the fact that he is an older man and has already lived a fulfilling life having made a hero out of himself (whereas Alistair is young and has yet to have done anything to give his life meaning). But I like to think that, even under these circumstances, Loghain does rise to the heroic if he sacrifices himself, and does redeem himself. I think we should give both of them more credit for making that decision at the end, even if the circumstances almost demand it.

[Fulgrim88]

TremCenwyth wrote...
I would say that by your reasoning Loghain's sacrifice would be even less significant. First of all, he becomes a Grey Warden only when faced with death. And adding to that is the fact that he is an older man and has already lived a fulfilling life having made a hero out of himself (whereas Alistair is young and has yet to have done anything to give his life meaning). But I like to think that, even under these circumstances, Loghain does rise to the heroic if he sacrifices himself, and does redeem himself. I think we should give both of them more credit for making that decision at the end, even if the circumstances almost demand it.

True, i felt the same way. For all it's apparent meaninglessness, it still does redeem him somehow.
I don't know about Alistairs sacrifice and the possible dialogue prior to the final battle, wether he at least realizes his flaw, as in my playthrough it didn't happen, but it might be a similar redemption, especially given the fact that his sacrifice is truly quite a bit greater.

I guess it's time for peace & shakehands here, i can clearly see your point now;)

[Akka le Vil]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

For me, executing Loghain ala "Eye for an Eye" is no more heroic than the alternative of becoming a sad drunkard. His thirst for vengeance being his flaw, the only potential for greatness i can see lies in the act of overcoming this thirst.

Refusing that a criminal can get away with his crime is a flaw ?
He has a moral backbone, that's good trait in my book.

[Akka le Vil]

Crappy forum that doesn't display answers before several minutes and prevent from editing them and lead to double-posts...

But I like to think that, even under these circumstances, Loghain does rise to the heroic if he sacrifices himself, and does redeem himself.

So someone that would have been sentenced to death anyhow redeem his uncountable crimes by dying a bit later ?

That's quite cheapening the notion of redemption.

[syllogi]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Crappy forum that doesn't display answers before several minutes and prevent from editing them and lead to double-posts...

But I like to think that, even under these circumstances, Loghain does rise to the heroic if he sacrifices himself, and does redeem himself.

So someone that would have been sentenced to death anyhow redeem his uncountable crimes by dying a bit later ?
That's quite cheapening the notion of redemption.

Seriously, does a moody psychotic jerk who almost brought the country to ruin and only had a "change of heart" after being defeated deserve an "honorable" death?  The Grey Wardens who ended past Blights are considered heroes and saviours.  Loghain has been the opposite, up until the Landsmeet. 

[menasure]

Akka le Vil wrote...

I'll always be left wondering how people who take on darkspawn frontally and happily sacrifice their lives so that others can survive can be called "crybaby" and "whiny".

he might have been conscripted without much choice in the matter, happened to my character also

[Akka le Vil]

menasure wrote...

he might have been conscripted without much choice in the matter, happened to my character also

And being conscripted somehow makes you suddendly able to fight horrific foes without flinching ?

[menasure]

Akka le Vil wrote...

menasure wrote...

he might have been conscripted without much choice in the matter, happened to my character also

And being conscripted somehow makes you suddendly able to fight horrific foes without flinching ?

you would not live long if you really flinched, besides that we do not know what the initiation does with a persons character ... loghain also did not flinch during battles despite of the dialogues mentioning the whole grey warding thing as a worse than death punishment for him.
the thing is i started my grey warden adventure as alternative for going to prison. does that make me a hero or is it just convenient to call every grey warden a hero?

[Akka le Vil]

menasure wrote...

you would not live long if you really flinched, besides that we do not know what the initiation does with a persons character ...

The initiation doesn't seem to change anything in the character. And yes you wouldn't live long against darkspawns if you were cowering at their sight, but that's precisely my point : Alistair doesn't cower at their sight, and accept to go fight them without second thoughts. That's much more courageous than what probably 90 % of the people on the board could ever do, so I find it funny they call him a whiner/weak/coward/whatever;

loghain also did not flinch during battles despite of the dialogues mentioning the whole grey warding thing as a worse than death punishment for him.

I fail to see how it is a punishment in any way - it's closer to an honor, in fact, which is precisely why Alistair was so mad at this.
And Loghain had never been called physically coward. He's very certainly a courageous warrior - doesn't prevent him for being a worthless bastard though.

[RazorrX]

I think Alistair is too Emo, but that is just me. The whole game (You are told it is at least a YEAR from start to finish) he is mourning. Suck it up, grow a pair and move on. YES I have had loved ones die in real life. I moved on. He is way too emo.



That and they made a mistake by making him Senior Grey Warden (IMO). He does not act like a senior anything. Caves at every point, makes NO decision (BUT will get all ****y if you do things he does not like) etc. This is even commented on by the Harpy in the group. I think it would have been better if he had just completed his joining a week or so prior to you vs the years it implies.



I made him king first time because even though he is worthless, he was a better choice than the byatch and her daddy.



I really really wish you could run him off earlier in game. I will ALWAYS be killing Loghain (The tool deserves it), so I never get rid of Emo Boy. Going to let him sacrifice himself this time around.

[Badpie]

Alistair is not perfect.  Nor should he be.  That's what I liked about him.  Actually it's what I liked about all of the characters.  I didn't find him whiny.  I found him to have a lot of defense mechanisms, but I don't think he was whiny.

Alistair never had a family until the Grey Wardens.  Everything he values and holds dear and honorable IS the Grey Wardens.  He has found his place with them and feels like he can do the most good with them.

Then they are annihilated.  By Logain.  The Grey Wardens of Ferelden are completely destroyed in large part BECAUSE OF LOGAIN.  So yeah.  If you were Alistair, and someone suggested to you "Gee, I know its a slap in the face to everything you believe and an insult to the honor of every single Grey Warden everywhere, but how about this:  How about we make this dude a Grey Warden?"  It's like someone murdering your entire family and then being invited to the family reunion.  I am actually not suggesting that executing him is a good thing though.  Just a human thing.  Alistair's quest for vengeance IS kind of a flaw perhaps, but I still understand it and thought he needed to do what he needed to do.

I thought about making Alistair king, but I knew he didn't want it.  He said, of course that he wouldn't shirk the responsibility if it happened and I believe that, but why should I force him when there is a perfectly capable leader already there and we have bigger fish to fry?  They Grey Wardens aren't gonna rebuild themselves.

Modifié par Badpie, 24 novembre 2009 - 02:35 .

[The Angry One]

Loghain is guilty of high treason and regicide.

Even if he hadn't been responsible for the death of the only true family Alistair ever knew, he still warrants the death sentence.

That kind of thing would get you the death sentence in any free country today.

[Tennmuerti]

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain is guilty of high treason and regicide.
Even if he hadn't been responsible for the death of the only true family Alistair ever knew, he still warrants the death sentence.
That kind of thing would get you the death sentence in any free country today.

Really? I was sure some countries abolished the death penalty.
I am also pretty sure that law enforcement agencies cut deals with criminals from time to time to catch bigger fish.

[Badpie]

Tennmuerti wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain is guilty of high treason and regicide.
Even if he hadn't been responsible for the death of the only true family Alistair ever knew, he still warrants the death sentence.
That kind of thing would get you the death sentence in any free country today.

Really? I was sure some countries abolished the death penalty.
I am also pretty sure that law enforcement agencies cut deals with criminals from time to time to catch bigger fish.

I think you have to consider the setting for this story too.  I mean in this..."time"? I guess I'll say... Loghain's actions ABSOLUTELY were treasonous and warranted death.  People are probably executed for far far less in this world. 

- Treason
- A plot to kill the king and usurp his throne
- Regicide
- slaving

Sounds like enough to me.  Not ME, maybe right now in this world and this time, but definitely "ME" the PC.

[The Angry One]

Tennmuerti wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain is guilty of high treason and regicide.
Even if he hadn't been responsible for the death of the only true family Alistair ever knew, he still warrants the death sentence.
That kind of thing would get you the death sentence in any free country today.

Really? I was sure some countries abolished the death penalty.
I am also pretty sure that law enforcement agencies cut deals with criminals from time to time to catch bigger fish.

Even in countries that have abolished death penalties, treason is the exception.
There is no "bigger fish" than one who betrays their own country in the eyes of the law.

[Akka le Vil]

Tennmuerti wrote...

I am also pretty sure that law enforcement agencies cut deals with criminals from time to time to catch bigger fish.

Kinda hard to find a bigger fish than Loghain, though.
The archdemon is perhaps a bigger threat, but considering that Loghain has been his best ally during the whole game, I'm not convinced about his efficiency at fighting him

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

Even in countries that have abolished death penalties, treason is the exception.
There is no "bigger fish" than one who betrays their own country in the eyes of the law.

Here, the death penalty is abolished completely since 1975, and abolished in peace time since 1921. Even regarding treason. And I'd like to think that I live in a free country.

[Tennmuerti]

The Angry One wrote...

Tennmuerti wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain is guilty of high treason and regicide.
Even if he hadn't been responsible for the death of the only true family Alistair ever knew, he still warrants the death sentence.
That kind of thing would get you the death sentence in any free country today.

Really? I was sure some countries abolished the death penalty.
I am also pretty sure that law enforcement agencies cut deals with criminals from time to time to catch bigger fish.

Even in countries that have abolished death penalties, treason is the exception.
There is no "bigger fish" than one who betrays their own country in the eyes of the law.

Not all countries do this.
A quick google search yields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason read Australia for example.
Many countries today do not have the death penalty for any reason.
And yes there is potential for bigger fish even when some one commits treason.
Please stop being ignorant.

Modifié par Tennmuerti, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:01 .

[The Angry One]

You call me ignorant when you don't even know the difference between treason and high treason?

Pathetic.

[Tennmuerti]

The Angry One wrote...

You call me ignorant when you don't even know the difference between treason and high treason?
Pathetic.

/facepalm

Here if you are so lazy: http://en.wikipedia....ki/High_treason
Many countries do not have a death penalty. FOR ANY REASON. If you think that high treason is punishable by death in every country .... efin LOL

Edit: For further general education - Singapore, Japan and the U.S. are the only fully developed countries that have retained the death penalty.

Modifié par Tennmuerti, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:17 .