107 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

You call me ignorant when you don't even know the difference between treason and high treason?
Pathetic.

It includes high treason (here at least). Kill the king/prime minister/anybody, still, no death penalty.
 
So, there are places where you can break the law however you want and not get sentenced to death by the judges.

[The Angry One]

There may be a few countries that don't, but there are many that do.

Your continued referencing of wikis marks you as a lazy, ignorant debater. I have no time to waste on kids like you.

[Badpie]

Wow. This must be a record for how short it takes for someone to call someone "ignorant" out of the blue. Unwarranted. Knock it off.

[Tennmuerti]

The Angry One wrote...

There may be a few countries that don't, but there are many that do.
Your continued referencing of wikis marks you as a lazy, ignorant debater. I have no time to waste on kids like you.

I am not debating with you.

[The Angry One]

Tennmuerti wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

There may be a few countries that don't, but there are many that do.
Your continued referencing of wikis marks you as a lazy, ignorant debater. I have no time to waste on kids like you.

I am not debating with you.

Nope, you're being a rude fool. But thanks for trying.

[Fulgrim88]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

For me, executing Loghain ala "Eye for an Eye" is no more heroic than the alternative of becoming a sad drunkard. His thirst for vengeance being his flaw, the only potential for greatness i can see lies in the act of overcoming this thirst.

Refusing that a criminal can get away with his crime is a flaw ?
He has a moral backbone, that's good trait in my book.

You know, there actually is justice that doesn't involve execution.

Alistair doesn't want justice, he want's bloody vengeance, which is  a flaw, no matter what

[Walina]

Lemonio wrote...

i know that he doesn't want to be king
but he agrees that loghain sucks and that he doesn't want anora
so there are no alternatives
and he still got mad at me

on a different note
can anyone except a human noble become queen? 

He is like that because made sure that PC can't talk to Alistair and knock some sense into him at this moment = to few options at Landmeet. Sorry it's a joke just to decide with who you side, while with Dwarves you have to do many quests to put the next king on the throne!

Only female noble can become queen but you can still end up with Alistair being a grey warden, you just have to accept Morrigan (stupid) offer.

If you harden Alistair while you did his personal quest, he will choose to be king if you spare Loghain and marry Anora.

If you have further questions please go here > http://social.bioware.com/group/687/

Modifié par Walina, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:38 .

[catofnine]

The Angry One wrote...

Why do people rag on Alistair?
He's handsome, witty and clever. Boys hate that.

He's witty? Sometimes.  Clever? Eh.  Handsome? I suppose.

But really...I hate him because he keeps stealing my zomg awesome killing blows on bosses.

DIAF, Alistair.

Modifié par catofnine, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:18 .

[Akka le Vil]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

You know, there actually is justice that doesn't involve execution.

Well, the option isn't there in the game. What am I to do ? Rewrite it myself ?

Personnally, I would think that, considering the crime and misplaced self-righteousness of Loghain, the best punishment would have been public humiation, not death. Exposed in a cage with the detail of his crime, every family of his victims throwing rotten eggs at him and cursing his name.

Seeing the nation he was claimed to protect spitting on his face for his hypocrisy would probably be the best way to drive the point home.

But chosing between death or absence of justice ? I'll take whatever amount of justice is available, even if it can be considered flawed.
(additionnally, the "no death penalty" in a medieval setting would just look completely out of place)

Alistair doesn't want justice, he want's bloody vengeance, which is  a flaw, no matter what

Wanting someone punished for his crime is not necessarily mindless vengeance. He simply doesn't want Loghain walking out with honour rather than being punished. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't mind HOW Loghain is punished, just the fact that he IS punished.

Still perfectly OK in my book. I'd take justice over indifference, thank you. Indifference to crime is what allows crimes to happen.

[Fulgrim88]

catofnine wrote...
But really...I hate him because he keeps stealing my zomg awesome killing blows on bosses.

That's Sten, for me


>

[Wrathra]

RazorrX wrote...

That and they made a mistake by making him Senior Grey Warden (IMO). He does not act like a senior anything. Caves at every point, makes NO decision (BUT will get all ****y if you do things he does not like) etc. This is even commented on by the Harpy in the group. I think it would have been better if he had just completed his joining a week or so prior to you vs the years it implies.

Alistair was only a warden for six months. He tells you in one of the conversations you have with him (I forget which).

[galesong1234]

frostajulie wrote...

It amazes me how anyone who has seen the part where Loghain is spared can have 1 redeemable comment about poser baby Allistair. That poser acts all good and honorable and decent and just the perfect honorable guy, he promises to love you, he promised Duncan he would try to end the Blight, in becoming a Grey Warden he promised this as well, but all his promises of love, loyalty, and honor go out the window when that sniveling little cry baby doesn't get his way. Seriously we are about to face an entire army of darkspawn and an arch demon with only 3 Grey wardens. Making Loghain a warden makes the most sense, place his muscly experienced steel between death and us and Allistair runs away on the night of battle to get drunk in a foreign land.

I say again Total poser. He should have showed up during the final fight to take the death blow that would have been more in character for Alistair up until Landsmeet as it stands He is a total douche and Zev is THE MAN.

OMG.....LOL....You are so right about his final character....that also goes for same if you don't harden him as well.  If we weren't so into a happy emotional invested outcome...we would see Alistair for whom he really was.

Zev. He made no commitment promises and was sweet and funny to the very end when he wanted to hang out with pc at the very end of game.

[galesong1234]

Fredescu wrote...

He doesn't polish his blade enough. Ask Oghren.

Talk about a double edged blade!?!

[Damsel of Distress]

Justice in Ferelden is execution. If you read one of the codex entires it says that imprisoment is a rare form of punishment (due to their notions about freedom) especially with crimes as large as Loghains.

[syllogi]

Lemonio wrote...

well i would agree that killing loghain isn't justice...but why the hell are having a philosophical flame war here?
i think there is a little too much cyberlove for allistair you all
calm down

Uh, so what exactly is justice for a guy who rewarded the man who had your family slaughtered (if you're a Cousland), enslaved your people (if you're an elf), almost destroyed the Circle of Magi (or totally destroyed it), committed treason and showed extreme cowardice by leaving the field of battle at Ostagar, almost killed an important noble, hired an assassin to kill you, and refused to abide by the outcome of the Landsmeet? 

Even if Alistair weren't a great character, there is no *logical* reason to a) spare Loghain AND make him a Grey Warden.  I don't think people are having a flame war, they are just amazed at the bizarre reasoning of Loghain fanboys.

[syllogi]

edit:  I only hit submit once, I swear!  

Modifié par TeenZombie, 25 novembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[Herr Uhl]

What greater justice is there than making them do toil, what good does a death sentence do other than to 1. serve as an example or/and 2. give the wronged party a sense of revenge. Let him die fighting the darkspawn I say!



I got the feeling that Alastair got pissed because he didn't want the *honor* of the grey wardens stained by having Loghain. I agree more with Riordan there, he thinks practically, not with his emotions. He got captured and tortured by Loghains men after all, so he has reason to hate him too.

[syllogi]

Lemonio wrote...
i don't mean videogame justice
i mean actual justice
if it isn't obvious to you, read plato's republic, and you will understand that killing some dude because he kills someone else is not just at all...it is revenge which is not justice at all
there is no "logical" reason to act like the person you despise by killing them

Haha, okay, please tell me all about how Loghain is creating the Ideal State, how Loghain is the Socratic defintion of a Just Man, and how Loghain has achieved all this by:

1)  elevating the man who slaughtered one of the highest noble families in the country to his right hand man, and rewarding him.

2)  selling citizens into slavery.

3)  poisoning another important noble, whose only crime is that he *might* disagree with him.

4)  supporting blood mages in the Circle of Magi.

5)  retreating from the field of battle, disregarding the direct orders of his king.

6)  declaring all Grey Wardens to be criminals, in the middle of a Blight, hiring an assassin for the Grey Wardens he hasn't caught, and imprisoning the one Grey Warden he does catch.

Yes, it is not obvious to me how sparing Loghain's life is at all Just.  Since you brought it up, and you are an expert, please explain this to me, I'm waiting breathlessly.

[Herr Uhl]

Oooh, I can explain!



See the two reasons I listed as the pro:s of execution:

1. As an example

2. For personal revenge of those wronged



And since most people who try to do those things you listed usually aren't deterred by a death penalty, there is nothing to gain by killing him except personal revenge.

You could instead get some use out of him in destroying the blight. The greater good is served!

[syllogi]

Lemonio wrote...

Teen zombie
read my post plz.
i didn't say loghain was good.
i said it isn't just executing him just because he is evil.
if you believe revenge is justice i can't really convince you otherwise

I did, and I asked you to explain to me how Loghain upholds the Platonic/Socratic idealization of the Just Man.  If you have an answer, I'd love to hear it.  Also, could you explain why the player character should be held to an impossible standard (that of the Just Man) while Loghain is most definitely not (if you choose redemption over vengance)?

[Axterix]

TeenZombie wrote...

Yes, it is not obvious to me how sparing Loghain's life is at all Just.  Since you brought it up, and you are an expert, please explain this to me, I'm waiting breathlessly.

Personally, I view being a Grey Warden as a form of repentence.  You work for the greater good, there is nothing for you, expect death in 30 years, if you manage to live that long.  A combination death sentence + community service.

Logain did terrible things.  His hatred of Orlain is the root cause of it.  Why he betrayed the king, why he needed to build a larger army, and so on.  Led him down a path of corruption, step by step, always one more little thing for what he viewed as the greater good of the nation.

But being a grey warden strips all that away.  You no longer have king and country.  You just have the Blight.  And Logain has enough honor to accept that, when he enters it willingly.

That said, I also understand why Alistair threw his hissy fit.
1.  His brother's death.
2.  Duncan's death, a father figure for Alistair.
3.  Poisoning of the arl, yet another father figure, would have been death if not for the summoned demon.
4.  Finally found a true home in the wardens, and now this man is being let in, so Alistair won't be able to go home again.

In short, Logain is taking away from him everything thing he values.

Unfortunately, my character felt that Logain's tactical prowess would be useful in the final battle against the darkspawn, that we needed every advantage we could get.  That same character also ran her father and mother's killer through...and promised the same for his son and wife, without really knowing their guilt.  Same crime basically, 2 parents dead, one brother most likely dead.  So sort of a hypocritical thing for my character to do, though killing my parent's killer did serve the warden cause.

If Alistair had asked for Logain's death after the battle, that'd have fine.  But not before.

As it was, Logain didn't survive the battle.  He died for his crimes.  Just in a useful way.

Grey Wardens are not about justice.  They are about using tools to get the job done.