60 réponses à ce sujet

[Finnian Valko]

Note: This topic was originally only about the issue of bisexuality in DA2, but has been expanded to include every lingering issue with the romances in Dragon Age including: conversation structure, character attractiveness, racial tension etc.

Okay, now before anyone says anything, let me just say that I know this has been discussed to death on these boards. I'm still fairly new and even I am aware of that, but I really wanted to get my point of view of the subject out there.

When DA2 came out a lot of people took offense to the idea that now every character seems to be bisexual, and thus every character of either gender has a distinct habit of hitting on Hawke. Most of these complaints tended to stem rampant homophobia and not from any legitimate problems with the concept, but I have to admit the whole idea bothers me quite a bit.

One of the big things I loved about DA:O was the interesting and emersive narrative, most of which was found through character interaction and, well, romance. To clarify, in DA:O we had four romance options: Morrigan (straight), Alistair (straight), Leliana (bi) and Zevran (bi). Notice how two of the options are exclusive to only the opposite gender. This is where I felt DA2 dropped the ball.

In DA2 I don't feel like I'm dealing with people anymore. With real people, not everyone is bi, just like not everyone is straight and not everyone is gay. In DA2, especially in the beginning, everyone seems to want a piece of Hawke regardless of what gender you are and it really ruins what could have been a believable, interesting narrative.

Another problem is that it doesn't even make sense in terms of the characters involved. Excluding DLC, you have four romance options to work with in DA2: Isabela, Anders, Fenris and Merrill. They are all willing to be involved with either gender. Isabela makes sense, she's been bi since DA:O, and Fenris is new so I can accept it with him. Even Merrill, I guess, would work if they wanted it that way.

But then you have Anders, the mage who in Awakening couldn't pass a reasonably attractive woman on the street without flirting with her. His character's established personality almost requires that he be straight, but he's not and it makes no sense.

Let me just restate for the record that I don't have a problem with the homosexual pairings in Dragon Age. That's not the issue. The issue is the lack of sensible characterization with the romances. I understand Bioware wanting to appeal to everyone's interests, but if they really wanted to bring homosexual rights and freedoms into the equation then why not create an exclusively gay party member? Now that would be something.

With the method they chose, I have trouble looking at my party members and seeing people anymore. They come off more like objects to be flirted with. I feel like DA:O handled homosexual pairings in a much more sensible and mature way, and I know some people consider Zevran a stereotype but that's an issue with the character and not with how they handled gay pairings. DA:O just felt more realistic in terms of how real people actually are.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject. Please feel free to burn me at the stake for being a terrible person now.

Modifié par Finnian Valko, 22 décembre 2011 - 10:18 .

[jlb524]

Finnian Valko wrote...
One of the big things I loved about DA:O was the interesting and emersive narrative, most of which was found through character interaction and, well, romance. To clarify, in DA:O we had four romance options: Morrigan (straight), Alistair (straight), Leliana (bi) and Zevran (bi). Notice how two of the options are exclusive to only the opposite gender. This is where I felt DA2 dropped the ball.

In DA2 I don't feel like I'm dealing with people anymore. With real people, not everyone is bi, just like not everyone is straight and not everyone is gay. In DA2, especially in the beginning, everyone seems to want a piece of Hawke regardless of what gender you are and it really ruins what could have been a believable, interesting narrative.

With real people, not everyone would romance a dwarf...not everyone would romance someone who held opposing morals to theirs or did things they really hated...not everyone would romance someone who's extremely unattractive.

DA:O didn't have that...oh wait, it did.

In DA:O, everyone wants a piece of the Warden regardless of morality, race, class, previous decisions, physical appearance with the only restriction being gender on two of them.  

Finnian Valko wrote... 
Another problem is that it doesn't even make sense in terms of the characters involved. Excluding DLC, you have four romance options to work with in DA2: Isabela, Anders, Fenris and Merrill. They are all willing to be involved with either gender. Isabela makes sense, she's been bi since DA:O, and Fenris is new so I can accept it with him. Even Merrill, I guess, would work if they wanted it that way.

Why wouldn't Merrill 'work'?

Finnian Valko wrote...  
But then you have Anders, the mage who in Awakening couldn't pass a reasonably attractive woman on the street without flirting with her. His character's established personality almost requires that he be straight, but he's not and it makes no sense.

Bisexual men are attracted to women, last time I checked.

Finnian Valko wrote...   
Let me just restate for the record that I don't have a problem with the homosexual pairings in Dragon Age. That's not the issue. The issue is the lack of sensible characterization with the romances.

You act like this was never an issue.  I want to romance Morrigan but I ****** her off....but hey, I can buy her affection with shiny necklaces!  That's sensible characterization.

 

Finnian Valko wrote...    
I understand Bioware wanting to appeal to everyone's interests, but if they really wanted to bring homosexual rights and freedoms into the equation then why not create an exclusively gay party member? Now that would be something.

They've already stated that they won't do it...most gaymers that I know prefer the 'all bi' route as they can just romance whoever they like best and not be stuck with their 'token bisexual interest'.

 

Finnian Valko wrote...     
With the method they chose, I have trouble looking at my party members and seeing people anymore. They come off more like objects to be flirted with. 

And...what...having 2 heterosexual only LIs would fix that?

Your arguments against this are nothing new and have been repeated ad nasuem...it's not realistic! (even though none of these romances are)...it's bad characterization! (even though you can find examples of this in DA:O romances as well)

Modifié par jlb524, 22 décembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Plaintiff]

Anders directs comments at Nathaniel that could reasonably be interpreted as flirting. I've just played through Awakening and his machismo is not nearly as rampant as you're making out. He makes a a few passing comments about women he once knew, and is rebuffed by Velanna. That's it. He certainly isn't ogling every woman he passes on the street. He spends more dialogue on Ser Pounce-a-lot alone than he does on the whole subject of women combined. He wasn't nearly fleshed out enough in Awakening to make a reasonable judgement about his sexuality one way or the other.

As it is, the sexuality of the characters in DA2 is a minor and completely avoidable aspect of their personalities. They have plenty of other stuff going on in their lives. "Real people" as a general rule aren't elves, mages or even pirates; apparently none of that bothers you, but the prevalence of bisexuality is what shatters the illusion for you? Really?

That you allow this very small aspect to distract you so much suggests to me that you might have more of a problem with homosexual pairings than you actually realize.

Personally, as a player I want more choice, not less. I think all romanceable characters should be bisexual in future DA games. Realism can get bent.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 décembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Finnian Valko]

[quote]jlb524 wrote...


With real people, not everyone would romance a dwarf...not everyone would romance someone who held opposing morals to theirs or did things they really hated...not everyone would romance someone who's extremely unattractive.

DA:O didn't have that...oh wait, it did.

In DA:O, everyone wants a piece of the Warden regardless of morality, race, class, previous decisions, physical appearance with the only restriction being gender on two of them.  
[/quote]

True, I never said it was perfect in terms of that, though I would argue that morality does play into it since you can't romance someone who doesn't like you. But I guess then you could just shower them with gifts...

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
Why wouldn't Merrill 'work'?
[/quote]

She would, which is why I said that you could include her since we never knew anything in regards to her sexuality in Origins.

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
Bisexual men are attracted to women, last time I checked.
[/quote]

Yes, but he was always flirting with women to the point that him even having a subtle interest in males seemed adsurd. Granted, they changed Ander's character so much in DA2 that him being bi seems minor in comparison.

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
You act like this was never an issue.  I want to romance Morrigan but I ****** her off....but hey, I can buy her affection with shiny necklaces!  That's sensible characterization.
[/quote]

The system has never been perfect. I just thought they handled sexuality better in Origins. 

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
They've already stated that they won't do it...most gaymers that I know prefer the 'all bi' route as they can just romance whoever they like best and not be stuck with their 'token bisexual interest'.
[/quote]

I see the benefit there. Honestly it probably wouldn't have bothered me too much had everyone not been flirting with me.  If they just gave the player the option to make the first move in most, or all, cases I don't think it would have ever been a major issue.

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
And...what...having 2 heterosexual only LIs would fix that?
[/quote]

Numbers aren't a big deal here. All I'm asking for is that characters behave more realistically.

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
Your arguments against this are nothing new and have been repeated ad nasuem...it's not realistic! (even though none of these romances are)...it's bad characterization! (even though you can find examples of this in DA:O romances as well)
[/quote]

Perhaps, I was only sharing my viewpoint on it. I just felt that their concept could have been handled a bit better.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Anders directs comments at Nathaniel
that could reasonably be interpreted as flirting. I've just played
through Awakening and his machismo is not nearly as rampant as
you're making out. He makes a a few passing comments about women he once
knew, and is rebuffed by Velanna. That's it. He certainly isn't ogling
every woman he passes on the street. He spends more dialogue on Ser
Pounce-a-lot alone than he does on the whole subject of women combined.
He wasn't nearly fleshed out enough in Awakening to make a reasonable
judgement about his sexuality one way or the other.
[/quote]

I didn't take him talking with Nate as flirting, but I suppose you could view it that way.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
As it is, the sexuality of the characters in DA2 is a minor and completely avoidable
aspect of their personalities. They have plenty of other stuff going on
in their lives. "Real people" as a general rule aren't elves, mages or
even pirates; apparently none of that bothers you, but the prevalence of
bisexuality is what shatters the illusion for you? Really?
[/quote]

The elves, mages and pirates fit into the fantasy realm. It doesn't shatter the whole thing. It's not that big a deal. I just felt it could have been handled in a better way.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
That
you allow this very small aspect to distract you so much suggests to me
that you might have more of a problem with homosexual pairings than you
actually realize.
[/quote]

Don't make accusations about my character over a small problem with video game characterization. It doesn't bother me that much, and I assure you I have plenty more issues with DA2 that affect the game much more radicaly than avoidable, optional romances.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Personally, as a player I want more choice, not less. I think all romanceable characters should be bisexual in future DA games. Realism can get bent.[/quote]

Well, hey, I see why some don't mind it. Perhaps I just don't like my RPGs being too flexible. It's stupid, I know.

Modifié par Finnian Valko, 22 décembre 2011 - 07:50 .

[Finnian Valko]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

'tis still a hot topic i see

"Touchy subject" seems to fit it better. Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything. I didn't wish to argue about it or come off as gay bashing or anything. I just wanted to share why I felt it wasn't handled as well as it could have been

[esper]

Unless the go they one hetero, one bi and one gay route per gender in da3 (which means six Li's). The all bi route works better, it also avoids that the bi person is the rouge with a doubtable past that explains his/her orientations (da:o).
Also you say that everyone flirts with you. Not true. Merrill never flirted with any of my Hawkes that don't take the intiative and Fenris comes with one compliment that doesn't have to be taken as flirting.
Isabella does because she is Isabella, and Anders does if you are nice and he is Anders. It fits with both their personalities.

[Finnian Valko]

esper wrote...

Unless the go they one hetero, one bi and one gay route per gender in da3 (which means six Li's). The all bi route works better, it also avoids that the bi person is the rouge with a doubtable past that explains his/her orientations (da:o).
Also you say that everyone flirts with you. Not true. Merrill never flirted with any of my Hawkes that don't take the intiative and Fenris comes with one compliment that doesn't have to be taken as flirting.
Isabella does because she is Isabella, and Anders does if you are nice and he is Anders. It fits with both their personalities.

True and true.

I see your point, and perhaps the all-bi route does work better for everyone. I believe I was exaggerating with the "everyone flirts with me" thing. It's true, I can ignore Fenris' compliment and take it as an innocent gesture of respect. Anders just really bothered me for some reason. It just seemed strange coming from him, but then again he's nothing like he was in Awakening in almost every way anyway so I suppose that's to be expected.

[sylvanaerie]

Technically the only two who ever 'come on' to Hawke are Anders and Isabella. Both Fenris and Merrill have to be flirted with in order to trigger their romances, and they never discuss anything remotely sexual to Hawke unless you initiate it. Fenris has one line about "if he had known Anso would hire someone as capable as Hawke he'd have done it sooner". But that seems more about admiring Hawke's skill, not his/her attractiveness as a partner.

And I always got the impression Anders was Bi, even in Awakenings, though we couldn't do more than semi-flirt with him.

[jlb524]

Finnian Valko wrote...
True, I never said it was perfect in terms of that, though I would argue that morality does play into it since you can't romance someone who doesn't like you. But I guess then you could just shower them with gifts...

My mage Warden decided not to destroy the Anvil and Leliana got real pissy with her...should she have dumped my Warden right there?  Probably...did she?  No...I think I lost 10 approval points...but I was still able to continue my romance with her w/o having to gift spam even.

Finnian Valko wrote... 
Yes, but he was always flirting with women to the point that him even having a subtle interest in males seemed adsurd. Granted, they changed Ander's character so much in DA2 that him being bi seems minor in comparison.

Bisexuals don't necessarily have equal preferences for men and women.  

Finnian Valko wrote...  
The system has never been perfect. I just thought they handled sexuality better in Origins. 

They didn't handle it at all.

My female Warden couldn't romance Morrigan b/c of one gender check set at the beginning...so all the flirts were gone from her dialog tree...why couldn't my lesbian Warden even flirt with her and get turned down?

Finnian Valko wrote...   
Numbers aren't a big deal here. All I'm asking for is that characters behave more realistically.

So you want it to be more like a dating simulation?   Do you honestly think that the DA:O romance companions behaved 'realistically' when you were macking on them?

[Finnian Valko]

PurebredCorn wrote...
I understand that you're saying that the romances are an important part of the game for you but they are optional and, with the exception of Anders, a very minor part of the story. I don't understand how you can say that *everyone* wants a piece of Hawke when with all but one character the player initiates the romance.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're getting at, but I've seen this complaint repeatedly on these forums even before the game was released, and it still doesn't make any sense to me.

My saying "everyone" is unfair. Merrill doesn't and Fenris' line can pass for an innocent compliment.

I think the complaint really stems from Anders mainly, I would guess because his flirting is so blatant. In fact the more I think about it the more I think that the problem is that Anders is out of character in general in DA2, and the bi thing just enhances that problem.

[Finnian Valko]

jlb524 wrote...
My mage Warden decided not to destroy the Anvil and Leliana got real pissy with her...should she have dumped my Warden right there?  Probably...did she?  No...I think I lost 10 approval points...but I was still able to continue my romance with her w/o having to gift spam even.

You don't always have to, it was a joke. One that you also made in your first post, I should mention.

jlb524 wrote...
Bisexuals don't necessarily have equal preferences for men and women.  

Yea, well, you wouldn't know that in DA2 if you play as a male because Anders only ever flirts with you. Why did he never make a pass at anyone else? He constantly flirted with Velanna in Awakening. Merrill's Dalish too.

jlb524 wrote...
They didn't handle it at all.

My female Warden couldn't romance Morrigan b/c of one gender check set at the beginning...so all the flirts were gone from her dialog tree...why couldn't my lesbian Warden even flirt with her and get turned down?

Perhaps they didn't deem it necessary? I don't know, but you're right. The option would have been something to work with, but no one turns you down in DA2, except Sebastian but he's kind of a weird exception.

jlb524 wrote...
So you want it to be more like a dating simulation?   Do you honestly think that the DA:O romance companions behaved 'realistically' when you were macking on them?

No, no, no. I'm just saying that people have different tastes and orientations, and I think it could have helped characterize a bit better if some, not all, of them were only interested in a single gender. That is all I am saying.

Modifié par Finnian Valko, 22 décembre 2011 - 08:30 .

[Finnian Valko]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Finnian Valko wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...
I understand that you're saying that the romances are an important part of the game for you but they are optional and, with the exception of Anders, a very minor part of the story. I don't understand how you can say that *everyone* wants a piece of Hawke when with all but one character the player initiates the romance.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're getting at, but I've seen this complaint repeatedly on these forums even before the game was released, and it still doesn't make any sense to me.

My saying "everyone" is unfair. Merrill doesn't and Fenris' line can pass for an innocent compliment.

I think the complaint really stems from Anders mainly, I would guess because his flirting is so blatant. In fact the more I think about it the more I think that the problem is that Anders is out of character in general in DA2, and the bi thing just enhances that problem.

Well, I can understand that then. I agree Anders is a changed man from Awakenings but he's not just Anders anymore he's Justice as well.

True enough, and I understood that but he doesn't even behave like Justice did. I don't know, I think he could have been handled better in general.

[jlb524]

Finnian Valko wrote...
Yea, well, you wouldn't know that in DA2 if you play as a male because Anders only ever flirts with you. Why did he never make a pass at anyone else? He constantly flirted with Velanna in Awakening. Merrill's Dalish too.

He's possessed.

Finnian Valko wrote... 
Perhaps they didn't deem it necessary? I don't know, but you're right. The option would have been something to work with, but no one turns you down in DA2, except Sebastian but he's kind of a weird exception.

No one turns you down in DA:O either as long as you play the right gender for that romance.  

The issue isn't sexuality but how these romances are structured in general...and you see this in every BW game.

Finnian Valko wrote...  
No, no, no. I'm just saying that people have different tastes and orientations, and I think it could have helped characterize a bit better if some, not all, of them were only interested in the opposite gender. That is all I am saying.

That seems like you're applying a double standard....you want gender to matter in romances but are fine if they forget about anything else because limiting based on gender is enough to make it 'more realistic characterization'.  Why is gender so important?

Modifié par jlb524, 22 décembre 2011 - 08:34 .

[TEWR]

I see the benefit there. Honestly it probably wouldn't have bothered me too much had everyone not been flirting with me. If they just gave the player the option to make the first move in most, or all, cases I don't think it would have ever been a major issue.

Isabela's generally a flirty person by nature. That doesn't mean she has to be seen as hitting on Hawke. One could just see that as her way of being friendly. Tobias Hawke and Isabela flirted with each other even though Tobias was in love with Merrill. And I'm the same way really. I flirt with girls all the time but that's because I'm a flirty person by nature.

Hawke makes the first move at Merrill. And Fenris too I believe.

The only problem is how one can't gently let down Anders without losing Friendship points.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 décembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[Finnian Valko]

jlb524 wrote...
He's possessed.

I am...unsure if "possession" is the right word for what Anders has, but I could accept that explanation.

jlb524 wrote...
No one turns you down in DA:O either as long as you play the right gender for that romance.  

The issue isn't sexuality but how these romances are structured in general...and you see this in every BW game.

Your said your problem is that you can't even attempt romance a straight character in DA:O. My point was that no one turns you down in DA2 based on gender which isn't realistic either. I think we agree, but our points are getting mixed up.

And I wouldn't say you see it everywhere. Mass Effect did a decent job except...well, wait there aren't any homosexual romances in Mass Effect are there? Unless you count Liara, but I'm referring to the human-to-human relationships.

jlb524 wrote...
That seems like you're applying a double standard....you want gender to matter in romances but are fine if they forget about anything else because limiting based on gender is enough to make it 'more realistic characterization'.  Why is gender so important?

No, I'm not saying there aren't other areas that need improvement. I'm just saying that I think solidfying the character's orientation would help improve the system a bit. It still would need work, but i think it would help. 

Gender is important because people don't all like both genders. Some are gay, some are straight and yes, some are bi. I just think it could make for a more interesting narrative to include characters who would deny the advances of their own gender, or the opposite gender if that's what the character's creator wants to go with. 

[jlb524]

Finnian Valko wrote...
Your said your problem is that you can't even attempt romance a straight character in DA:O. My point was that no one turns you down in DA2 based on gender which isn't realistic either. I think we agree, but our points are getting mixed up.

I actually don't want them to go for 'realism' because I don't think they will (too many resources) and considering how small the romance subplot is (and that a minority of players even complete one) I don't think it's in the best interest of anyone...that's why I prefer to have the LIs open to whoever wishes to romance them (be they male, female, elf, dwarf, a-hole, saint, blood mage, templar, etc.)

We don't agree at all...I'm merely pointing out your double standard.  I don't have a problem with my Warden being unable to flirt and get turned down by Morrigan...my issue is that Morrigan wasn't a female romance option when just about any other Warden could romance her (like, a dwarf...well, male dwarf).

Finnian Valko wrote... 
And I wouldn't say you see it everywhere. Mass Effect did a decent job except...well, wait there aren't any homosexual romances in Mass Effect are there? Unless you count Liara, but I'm referring to the human-to-human relationships.

No, Mass Effect follows the same 'pick the right option and activate the romance no matter what' structure that any other BW game follows.  I'm not talking about sexuality but how these romances are structured in general.

Finnian Valko wrote... 
No, I'm not saying there aren't other areas that need improvement. I'm just saying that I think solidfying the character's orientation would help improve the system a bit. It still would need work, but i think it would help. 

They seem to be going in the opposite direction...probably because of the reasons I highlighted above.  

I see you've only started a thread particularly relating to 'improving' the romances by limiting gender and nothing else.  it seems that is more important to you than the others...I'd bet you'd stop at that considering you used DA:O as an example of 'good'.

Finnian Valko wrote...  
Gender is important because people don't all like both genders. Some are gay, some are straight and yes, some are bi. I just think it could make for a more interesting narrative to include characters who would deny the advances of their own gender, or the opposite gender if that's what the character's creator wants to go with. 

Again, people (as in 'real' people) don't all like fugly PCs, or a-holes (or saints) or people who treated them like a jerk in the past...in the game world, humans typically don't pair up with dwarves....a dwarven male Warden has two human women throwing themselves at him...but is that easier to believe that two women could be interested in a female Warden?

My question is:  why is gender more important to you than those things?

Modifié par jlb524, 22 décembre 2011 - 09:23 .

[Maria Caliban]

Once upon a time, I felt that them being 'hawkesexual' messed with narrative purity and characterization and blah blah blah. Now I think that's BS and BioWare had the right of it.

I also feared the friendship/rivalry system when I first heard of it, but I was wrong about that as well.

[Finnian Valko]

jlb524 wrote...
My question is:  why is gender more important to you than those things?

It isn't. I always questioned why you could be evil as all heck and still date Leliana, and how you could be a dwarf and date Morrigan without question. I never, not once, said that these things made any more sense than every character being bi in DA2. I only used DA:O as an example because I thought it made more sense in terms of sexuality. It does have other problems, and I haven't denied that. Would it make you feel better if I made another lengthy post about how it makes no sense that you can be the worst kind of person in DA:O but still have your party love you if you give them pretty objects? Because I can totally do that.

I started this topic specifically in regards to the gender issue because, unfortunately, it's been one of the most hotly debated subjects when it comes to DA2 (which I believe we are establishing now).  I didn't mean to offend you, or incite anyone's wrath. I only wished to discuss and get other's points of view on the subject.

[Finnian Valko]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Once upon a time, I felt that them being 'hawkesexual' messed with narrative purity and characterization and blah blah blah. Now I think that's BS and BioWare had the right of it.

I also feared the friendship/rivalry system when I first heard of it, but I was wrong about that as well.

I admit, I still think the friendship/rivalry system is still incredibly silly, but now that I'm getting other's points of view I'm starting to see why the, as you say, "hawkesexual" idea may work better for everyone.

[billy the squid]

Gender is largely irrelevant, it serves little purpose other than to delinaite and restrict the options available it does not create a deeper characterisation at all other than, you can't romance this character. In terms of practicality the key is verisimilitude rather than realism, for who would fling themselves at the main character regardles of gender, actions, appearance or in some cases species?

What is required is a more nuanced and deeper conversational system, not pick the pretty picture/ colour and win the prize. I found this paticularly cack handed in Da2 from what I can remember, but the problems are still present in DAO, ME1, ME2.

For instance DAO seemed to have some more detailed and interesting conversations with the companions which could lead to loss of approval and eventually leave, however, it is open to manipulation using the gift system, which renders the issue of a follower becoming disgruntled with you moot and you can still initiate the romance. DA2 did away with it but engaged an overtly clunky system whereby I could act like a complete arse, but they would still be available to romance by virtue of the system.

ME showed similar problem hallmarks and had the same problems, but the execution of the dialogue and romances seemed somewhat better.

Idealy a much deeper detailed system of dialogues and cross branching avenues to engage in a romance is required. In essence make the player work for it. With regards to nuanced responses which affect approval or loyalty, a requirement would be more responses, not only renegade or paragon etc. For instance using renegade options should not mean that I have to respond like an arse, but rather resistance or defiance to a position may entail respect without closing down the romance, but without the abrasive irritation of the renegade use.

Modifié par billy the squid, 22 décembre 2011 - 10:18 .

[jlb524]

Finnian Valko wrote...
It isn't. I always questioned why you could be evil as all heck and still date Leliana, and how you could be a dwarf and date Morrigan without question. I never, not once, said that these things made any more sense than every character being bi in DA2.

But you said:

Finnian Valko wrote...
One of the big things I loved about DA:O was the interesting and emersive narrative, most of which was found through character interaction and, well, romance. To clarify, in DA:O we had four romance options: Morrigan (straight), Alistair (straight), Leliana (bi) and Zevran (bi). Notice how two of the options are exclusive to only the opposite gender. This is where I felt DA2 dropped the ball. 

Which tells me that you were quite happy with the way DA:O did things.

Then you say this about DA2...

Finnian Valko wrote... 
In DA2 I don't feel like I'm dealing with people anymore. 

Even if you now admit issues with DA:O, it seems at first they weren't that big of a concern to you.

Finnian Valko wrote... 
I started this topic specifically in regards to the gender issue because, unfortunately, it's been one of the most hotly debated subjects when it comes to DA2 (which I believe we are establishing now).  I didn't mean to offend you, or incite anyone's wrath. I only wished to discuss and get other's points of view on the subject.

Yes, this specific topic has been debated to death...don't you think your cause would be better served if you brought up how these romances (including the ones in DA:O for fairness) drop the ball in other areas (race, morality, class, etc)?  Thus, it would stand out from the hundreds of 'waaa waaa, bisexuals' threads that have been created in the past year.