2008 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[WhiteKnyght]

A dangerous zealot who likes to punish innocent people for his ideals who is driven bonkers by a powerful entity.(Meredith = Idol, Anders = Justice)

[Vit246]

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

[BTG_01]

For some reason I read the title of this as "Anders is the same age as Meredith" and I was all "whaaa??"

Yeah, I agree with OP. Although I don't think either one "liked" to punish innocent people, they clearly thought it necessary from some perverted sense of justice. They were also both fairly paranoid and saw enemies everywhere. I don't think Meredith ever owned a cat, though.

[Dave of Canada]

@OP:

Brace yourself



Mage supporters are coming.

[WhiteKnyght]

Vit246 wrote...

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

He blew up a Chantry full of innocent people because of his grudge against  the Chantry and Templars. Being a believer in a religion doesn't make you guilty of all the crimes committed in the name of your religion.

Ander's used the same twisted logic Meredith used when she used the Right of Annulment on the Circle for what Anders did. She knew they had no personal guilt, but she had a long standing grudge against mages and was given a chance to act on it.

Anders claimed what he did was for a greater good, the exact same thing Meredith claims. But in reality, he's driven by an insane butthurt supplemented by a mind altering entity, the exact same situation as Meredith.

Anders is a hypocrite hiding behind the plight of the mages. In reality, he's just a selfish bastard who only cares about satisfying his own needs. After all, he was so dark inside his soul that he perverted Justice into a demon of vengeance. He wants to punish the Chantry and the Templars first and foremost. He doesn't care if an entire Circle has to die for it.

Anders is a terrorist and a mass murderer.

Dave of Canada wrote...

@OP:

Brace yourself

Mage supporters are coming.

I am a mage supporter.

I'm just not an Anders supporter.

One thing I like about Asunder -- which I haven't yet read but read about -- is that it turns out that the BS Anders caused in Kirkwall actually didn't have much impact on the separation of the Circle and Chantry.

So Mister 'My name will go down in history'  will be remembered as a depraved abomination. Not a savior or liberator.

Użytkownik The Grey Nayr edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 06:05

[Plaintiff]

Elthina's cowardly failure to act in the face of Meredith's obvious tyranny not just to mages, but all of Kirkwall, makes her just as culpable for the abuses of the Templars as the individuals she is supposed to control. She deserves to die and I'm only sorry she wasn't forced to endure the same amount of suffering as the mages under her care.

Nobody in that Chantry was "innocent". The Chantry, and yes, every member of its clergy, is repsonsible for creating the culture of abuse and bigotry that mages have to endure. The Chantry controls the Templars, it is a military power. The fact that Elthina failed to rein in Meredith doesn't make her 'innocent', it makes her incompetent.

Even if there are innocents in there, why should Anders give a ****? Why should any mage? Why should they care about a world that denies them family, friends, freedom, love, all of the basic things that make life worth living? Why do you expect them to show compassion for others when none is given to them?

Anders is the product of a system that Elthina and the Chantry helped to perpetuate. If you  create a monster, you don't get to complain when it stomps on your house.

Użytkownik Plaintiff edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 06:39

[DrFumb1ezX]

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of that explosion.
Anders is the same as Meredith? Anders is far worse than Meredith. Both hide behind great causes to promote their own agendas. But Meredith doesn't blow the **** out places full of mages.

[Dave of Canada]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I am a mage supporter.

I'm just not an Anders supporter.

I know, though this topic will bring about the bad side of the army of mage supporters which lurk in the midsts of these forums (as it already begun).

Użytkownik Dave of Canada edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 06:44

[Plaintiff]

soccerchick wrote...

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of that explosion.
Anders is the same as Meredith? Anders is far worse than Meredith. Both hide behind great causes to promote their own agendas. But Meredith doesn't blow the **** out places full of mages.

No, she wants to go through and slaughter each one personally! Gosh, that's so much better!

[DrFumb1ezX]

Plaintiff wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of that explosion.
Anders is the same as Meredith? Anders is far worse than Meredith. Both hide behind great causes to promote their own agendas. But Meredith doesn't blow the **** out places full of mages.

No, she wants to go through and slaughter each one personally! Gosh, that's so much better!

Exactly! Gosh, thank you so much for understanding! After all, staring into someone's eyes as they die gives you so much more satisfaction.

But in reality, no. She'd take them back to the circle. Unless they proved to be blood mages. THEN she'd slaughter them.
(this is not including idol insanity)

[Plaintiff]

soccerchick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of that explosion.
Anders is the same as Meredith? Anders is far worse than Meredith. Both hide behind great causes to promote their own agendas. But Meredith doesn't blow the **** out places full of mages.

No, she wants to go through and slaughter each one personally! Gosh, that's so much better!

Exactly! Gosh, thank you so much for understanding! After all, staring into someone's eyes as they die gives you so much more satisfaction.

But in reality, no. She'd take them back to the circle. Unless they proved to be blood mages. THEN she'd slaughter them.
(this is not including idol insanity)

Meredith was insane well before she got the idol, she suffers from paranoid delusions and post-traumatic stress.

And given that plenty of mages would prefer death over the Kirkwall circle (or indeed, any circle), I don't see how this is an endorsement of her actions at all. Taking someone back to a prison where they're likely to be raped by the guards isn't the sort of thing I'd hold up as proof of Meredith's generous character.

OP, I have another question: You say you consider Anders a 'terrorist'. But what is terrorism really? What makes it objectively wrong? How is Anders blowing up a building on his own any worse than when a government or other organized faction does it?

[WhiteKnyght]

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina's cowardly failure to act in the face of Meredith's obvious tyranny not just to mages, but all of Kirkwall, makes her just as culpable for the abuses of the Templars as the individuals she is supposed to control. She deserves to die and I'm only sorry she wasn't forced to endure the same amount of suffering as the mages under her care.

Nobody in that Chantry was "innocent". The Chantry, and yes, every member of its clergy, is repsonsible for creating the culture of abuse and bigotry that mages have to endure. The Chantry controls the Templars, it is a military power. The fact that Elthina failed to rein in Meredith doesn't make her 'innocent', it makes her incompetent.

Even if there are innocents in there, why should Anders give a ****? Why should any mage? Why should they care about a world that denies them family, friends, freedom, love, all of the basic things that make life worth living? Why do you expect them to show compassion for others when none is given to them?

Anders is the product of a system that Elthina and the Chantry helped to perpetuate. If you  create a monster, you don't get to complain when it stomps on your house.

What makes you think she could act at all? She did everything but flat out say to Hawke that she doesn't have the strength of position that people believe her to. And if she did try, what makes you think anyone would listen to her? At best, she would be ousted from the Chantry in shame -- at worst, Meredith would execute her personally and put her head on a pike as a warning to any mage sympathizers.

Also you should be mature enough to realize that not every Andrastean feels the same way about mages. But it ironically seems that you have the same school of logic as the Chantry. Punish all for the crimes of the few. Don't forget that the Chantry uses the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium as justification for their persecution of magic just as you use the crimes of the Chantry as justification for any and all Andrasteans.

What Anders did was uncalled for and accomplished nothing. What caused the rebellion was Wynne finding out how to cure tranquility and one powerful man's bad reaction to it, not some terrorist blowing up a church.

With your logic, you'd have to kill all the mages too for not having the nerve to rise up sooner.

Użytkownik The Grey Nayr edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 06:59

[DrFumb1ezX]

Plaintiff wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of that explosion.
Anders is the same as Meredith? Anders is far worse than Meredith. Both hide behind great causes to promote their own agendas. But Meredith doesn't blow the **** out places full of mages.

No, she wants to go through and slaughter each one personally! Gosh, that's so much better!

Exactly! Gosh, thank you so much for understanding! After all, staring into someone's eyes as they die gives you so much more satisfaction.

But in reality, no. She'd take them back to the circle. Unless they proved to be blood mages. THEN she'd slaughter them.
(this is not including idol insanity)

Meredith was insane well before she got the idol, she suffers from paranoid delusions and post-traumatic stress.

And given that plenty of mages would prefer death over the Kirkwall circle (or indeed, any circle), I don't see how this is an endorsement of her actions at all. Taking someone back to a prison where they're likely to be raped by the guards isn't the sort of thing I'd hold up as proof of Meredith's generous character.

OP, I have another question: You say you consider Anders a 'terrorist'. But what is terrorism really? What makes it objectively wrong? How is Anders blowing up a building on his own any worse than when a government or other organized faction does it?

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never called Meredith generous. I simply stated that she would give the mages a chance, (pre-insanity). Anders gives none. He actively states that you should kill Thrask, the one sympathetic templar, the moment another mage suggests it.

You're confusing heavy-handed with insanity. If you knew Meredith's past, then yes, technically, she could be justified in "generous" actions such as not killing mages who have shown no indication of blood magic.

And because some would prefer death over prison, that inherently makes it bad? Well, then golly, why not just kill anyone who doesn't want to go to one of our prisons? And, lest I forget, you're likely to be raped in one of our penal institutions. It's massively under-reported/ignored.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina's cowardly failure to act in the face of Meredith's obvious tyranny not just to mages, but all of Kirkwall, makes her just as culpable for the abuses of the Templars as the individuals she is supposed to control. She deserves to die and I'm only sorry she wasn't forced to endure the same amount of suffering as the mages under her care.

Nobody in that Chantry was "innocent". The Chantry, and yes, every member of its clergy, is repsonsible for creating the culture of abuse and bigotry that mages have to endure. The Chantry controls the Templars, it is a military power. The fact that Elthina failed to rein in Meredith doesn't make her 'innocent', it makes her incompetent.

Even if there are innocents in there, why should Anders give a ****? Why should any mage? Why should they care about a world that denies them family, friends, freedom, love, all of the basic things that make life worth living? Why do you expect them to show compassion for others when none is given to them?

Anders is the product of a system that Elthina and the Chantry helped to perpetuate. If you  create a monster, you don't get to complain when it stomps on your house.

I've gone on at length about why your wrong about Elthina, but let's not repeat that argument.

Anders is a self absorbed mass murderer who deserves little in the way of sympathy.  His sole saving grace is that he can't be fully blamed for his deeds due to his possession.  Like Anders, Meredith is also a self absorbed mass murder, driven to insanity by magic (Vengeance for Anders and the Red lyrium for Meredith) who feels killing innocent people is justifiable for their own self righteous causes.

They both have their paralells in Asunder.  For Anders, the Liberatarian leader Adrian and for Meredith the Lord Seeker.  Both are just as self righteous in the killing of innocents, made more depicable by the lack of magical interference.  Funnily enough, the Lord Seeker was once in the Tervinter Imperium and actually helped the Mages take charge of the Circles because he sympathized with them.  His friend became the Black Divine and did next to nothing to help his fellow mages, instead spending all his time consolodating his power by delving into blood magic and other sordid schools.  The Lord Seeker was then ousted when he confronted his former friend about both subjects (The Black Divine called him naive and the reader is given the impression that the Lord Seeker barely survived the encounter).  He's seen mages taking charge go bad before, so his position becomes almost undertandable in comparison to Adrian's frothing at the mouth rabble rousing and her far too easy willingness to sacrifice the lives of fellow mages for the cause.

Point being that Anders and Adrian are no better than the worst of the Templars at the end of the day.

Użytkownik Lord Aesir edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 07:26

[GodWood]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
A dangerous zealot who likes to punish innocent people for his ideals who is driven bonkers by a powerful entity.(Meredith = Idol, Anders = Justice)

Yayyy!

I am a mage supporter.

Boooo!

[Melca36]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

He blew up a Chantry full of innocent people because of his grudge against  the Chantry and Templars. Being a believer in a religion doesn't make you guilty of all the crimes committed in the name of your religion.

Ander's used the same twisted logic Meredith used when she used the Right of Annulment on the Circle for what Anders did. She knew they had no personal guilt, but she had a long standing grudge against mages and was given a chance to act on it.

Anders claimed what he did was for a greater good, the exact same thing Meredith claims. But in reality, he's driven by an insane butthurt supplemented by a mind altering entity, the exact same situation as Meredith.

Anders is a hypocrite hiding behind the plight of the mages. In reality, he's just a selfish bastard who only cares about satisfying his own needs. After all, he was so dark inside his soul that he perverted Justice into a demon of vengeance. He wants to punish the Chantry and the Templars first and foremost. He doesn't care if an entire Circle has to die for it.

Anders is a terrorist and a mass murderer.

Dave of Canada wrote...

@OP:

Brace yourself

Mage supporters are coming.

I am a mage supporter.

I'm just not an Anders supporter.

One thing I like about Asunder -- which I haven't yet read but read about -- is that it turns out that the BS Anders caused in Kirkwall actually didn't have much impact on the separation of the Circle and Chantry.

So Mister 'My name will go down in history'  will be remembered as a depraved abomination. Not a savior or liberator.

LOL! You act like the Chantry was filled 1000s of people.

[Heimdall]

Melca36 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

He blew up a Chantry full of innocent people because of his grudge against  the Chantry and Templars. Being a believer in a religion doesn't make you guilty of all the crimes committed in the name of your religion.

Ander's used the same twisted logic Meredith used when she used the Right of Annulment on the Circle for what Anders did. She knew they had no personal guilt, but she had a long standing grudge against mages and was given a chance to act on it.

Anders claimed what he did was for a greater good, the exact same thing Meredith claims. But in reality, he's driven by an insane butthurt supplemented by a mind altering entity, the exact same situation as Meredith.

Anders is a hypocrite hiding behind the plight of the mages. In reality, he's just a selfish bastard who only cares about satisfying his own needs. After all, he was so dark inside his soul that he perverted Justice into a demon of vengeance. He wants to punish the Chantry and the Templars first and foremost. He doesn't care if an entire Circle has to die for it.

Anders is a terrorist and a mass murderer.

Dave of Canada wrote...

@OP:

Brace yourself

Mage supporters are coming.

I am a mage supporter.

I'm just not an Anders supporter.

One thing I like about Asunder -- which I haven't yet read but read about -- is that it turns out that the BS Anders caused in Kirkwall actually didn't have much impact on the separation of the Circle and Chantry.

So Mister 'My name will go down in history'  will be remembered as a depraved abomination. Not a savior or liberator.

LOL! You act like the Chantry was filled 1000s of people.

The Chantry, no, but the surrounding Hightown certainly had a few hundred nearby.

[Plaintiff]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
What makes you think she could act at all? She did everything but flat out say to Hawke that she doesn't have the strength of position that people believe her to. And if she did try, what makes you think anyone would listen to her? At best, she would be ousted from the Chantry in shame -- at worst, Meredith would execute her personally and put her head on a pike as a warning to any mage sympathizers.

Of course she could act, she was always able to act. She may not succeed, but the option is and was always present.

So she might die. So what? Merely staying in Kirkwall at all puts her at risk, but she claims that her duty to the people of Kirkwall is more important than her own life. Well if that's the case, why the **** didn't she do her goddamn duty? Meredith and her templars were harrassing ordinary citizens, they flouted chantry law by assuming de facto control of the city, nobles were working to depose her.

Plenty of people in weaker positions were fighting against Meredith's stranglehold on the city, and what did Elthina do? Nothing. Who did she help? Nobody. Elthina deserves to die for being criminally useless.

Also you should be mature enough to realize that not every Andrastean feels the same way about mages. But it ironically seems that you have the same school of logic as the Chantry. Punish all for the crimes of the few. Don't forget that the Chantry uses the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium as justification for their persecution of magic just as you use the crimes of the Chantry as justification for any and all Andrasteans.

What individuals believe doesn't signify. Some republicans may be in support of same-sex marriage, but that doesn't alter the official stance of the party they represent. The offical stance of the Chantry is that mages and magic are evil. If some individuals feel differently, then they should start their own faction where their beliefs are more accurately represented. Elthina is not some random lay sister, she is the Grand Cleric. She controls the entire Kirkwall branch of the chantry, and by extension she controls the templars as well.

Blaming an organization for things it is doing right now is not at all the same thing as blaming a group of people for something that another, unrelated group of people did a thousand years ago.

What Anders did was uncalled for and accomplished nothing. What caused the rebellion was Wynne finding out how to cure tranquility and one powerful man's bad reaction to it, not some terrorist blowing up a church.

Firstly, this has nothing to do with anything I said. Secondly, there is no one incident that triggered the conflict. Rebellion and war are never that simple, and if you think they are, then you're pretty dense. If the rebellion had nothing to do with Anders, that means Hawke is equally irrelevent. But the Seekers consider him not only responsible for the conflict, but capable of bringing it to an end. There are a number of contributing factors. Trying to pinpoint a single inciting incident would be completely disregarding the centuries of abuse that have led up this point. Thirdly, Anders actions are only uncalled for if you somehow believe the Chantry should not be held accountable for its own actions. Which you apparently do.

Fourthly, using information that isn't readily available to the rest of us is a dirty debate tactic.

With your logic, you'd have to kill all the mages too for not having the nerve to rise up sooner.

Um, no. That's not what I said at all. Are you sure you know what 'logic' means?

In any case, mages have risen up against the Chantry at various points in the history of Thedas. You act is if the conflict between them is something new, when in fact it has always been going on.

It's about time it was brought into the open, no amount of death in a single war could even come close to matching the blood shed during a thousand years of systematic abuse.

Użytkownik Plaintiff edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 08:03

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
What makes you think she could act at all? She did everything but flat out say to Hawke that she doesn't have the strength of position that people believe her to. And if she did try, what makes you think anyone would listen to her? At best, she would be ousted from the Chantry in shame -- at worst, Meredith would execute her personally and put her head on a pike as a warning to any mage sympathizers.

Of course she could act, she was always able to act. She may not succeed, but the option is and was always present.

  Nobody bother arguing with Plaintiff on this point.  I've already gone to lengths to describe why Elthina really couldn't accomplish much and her true duty was to keep the people of Kirkwall safe, not make ineffective atttempts to affect the Mage situation that put them in harms way.  However, Plaintiff is quite passionate on the subject and will just become more aggressive if you continue.  It's a waste of energy.

Użytkownik Lord Aesir edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 07:37

[Dave of Canada]

Melca36 wrote...

LOL! You act like the Chantry was filled 1000s of people.

Considering how large the Chantry is and the Chantry hierarchy (including the Templar guarding the Grand Cleric and the civilians living or possibly praying within), including the damages caused by the rubble / blast and the resulting riot (which was in effect caused by Anders as that's exactly what he wanted to achieve) and the demons roaming the street (weakened veil + grand magical explosion = bad).

I'm pretty certain that number isn't that far off for the Anders death toll.

Użytkownik Dave of Canada edytował ten post 23 grudzień 2011 - 07:45

[Plaintiff]

soccerchick wrote...
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never called Meredith generous. I simply stated that she would give the mages a chance, (pre-insanity). Anders gives none. He actively states that you should kill Thrask, the one sympathetic templar, the moment another mage suggests it.

He says that killing one templar would be preferable to leading several mages to what would likely be their execution. Considering that the mages at the time appear to be innocent of any wrongdoing, I would agree with his analysis. Regardless of how I feel personally about Thrask, one death is objectively preferable to several.

You're confusing heavy-handed with insanity. If you knew Meredith's past, then yes, technically, she could be justified in "generous" actions such as not killing mages who have shown no indication of blood magic.

On the contrary, Meredith's past is absolute proof that she is the last person who should be inducted into the Templar Order, let alone promoted to Knight-Commander. She is biased and paranoid and her history makes it impossible for her to view any situation objectively. If it weren't for the fact that the Chantry deliberately looks for zealots when recruiting for the templars, she would never have become one. It doesn't take a psychiatrist to see that she is utterly unfit.

And because some would prefer death over prison, that inherently makes it bad? Well, then golly, why not just kill anyone who doesn't want to go to one of our prisons? And, lest I forget, you're likely to be raped in one of our penal institutions. It's massively under-reported/ignored.

Which is also wrong.

Not that it matters. What goes on in real-life prisons is irrelevent because the Circle is not supposed to be a prison, and mages are not criminals. We shouldn't be able to make the comparison in the first place, the fact that we can is proof that the Circle system is broken and inherently flawed.

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...
 I've already gone to lengths to describe why Elthina really couldn't accomplish much and her true duty was to keep the people of Kirkwall safe

Which, by the way, she didn't do. Which is my point.

I see you fancy yourself a mind-reader.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
 I've already gone to lengths to describe why Elthina really couldn't accomplish much and her true duty was to keep the people of Kirkwall safe

Which, by the way, she didn't do. Which is my point.

I see you fancy yourself a mind-reader.

She was doing quite well until Anders killed her, especially considering the alternative was mass slaughter, abominations and demons roaming the streets, and the massacre of nearly every mage in the city.

Unless of course you can point out where Meredith was ordering the mass executions of the people in Kirkwall for harboring blood mages or somesuch, then yes, it would be fair to say the people of Kirkwall were much better off when Elthina was looking after then than without her.

Not a mind reader, just experience.