2008 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
Kerras actually makes a comment about this if you're a mage and you turn Grace in and get Varric to explain what's going on. He comments that it's odd for the mages to offer assistance in rounding up blood mages, runaways, and apostates. So you have the Circle refusing to assist in the capture of people who regularly pose a danger to the public, actively campaigning against the Templars, and refusing a search of the Circle. You then have a mage, an abomination no less blowing up the Chantry and claiming to act for all mages, but we're not supposed to lump the Circle in with him?

That Karras should ever be brought up as any kind of source of good information ...  ick.  The man is a first class creep.

Other than that...  why exactly should the mages help the Templars round up more mages for oppression?  And given Meredith locks them in the Gallows nearly all the time, how were they supposed to help anyway?  Expecting the oppressed people to aid their oppressors in anything other
than the most extreme dire circumstances is just not reasonable.

To apostates and runaways I'd say good luck and godspeed!  If Meredith had been less focused on harassing circle mages, she might have had more time to hunt down the blood mage gangs.  Had she spent less time as acting Viscount she might have had more time to control her Templars and keep them from tormenting the mages.

Meredith commits an evil act believing it to be good.  Anders commits an evil act knowing it to be evil.  They are very different.  That both of them happen to do bad things that they believe are necessary isn't really enough to equate them.

I said it would be a closer analogy if there were 900 years worth of mage violence, but even if there were 10 years, that's a far cry from 900.  And violence on the scale Anders perpetrated hasn't been mentioned anyway, so I stand by what I said.

[DPSSOC]

GavrielKay wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Kerras actually makes a comment about this if you're a mage and you turn Grace in and get Varric to explain what's going on. He comments that it's odd for the mages to offer assistance in rounding up blood mages, runaways, and apostates. So you have the Circle refusing to assist in the capture of people who regularly pose a danger to the public, actively campaigning against the Templars, and refusing a search of the Circle. You then have a mage, an abomination no less blowing up the Chantry and claiming to act for all mages, but we're not supposed to lump the Circle in with him?

That Karras should ever be brought up as any kind of source of good information ...  ick.  The man is a first class creep.

Agreed.

GavrielKay wrote...
Other than that...  why exactly should the mages help the Templars round up more mages for oppression?

Because if the moderates refuse to even attempt to reign in the extremists when they go too far they are expressing implicit consent (yes this applies to the Templars as well).  By doing nothing, nor offering to do anything, they are essentially approving the actions of these mages.

Imagine I witnessed a group of KKK members beating on a black man, if I were to just walk away I would be expressing approval of their actions even if I never say it.  If on the other hand I call the police and rush the group I am clearly demonstrating that I do not.

GavrielKay wrote...
And given Meredith locks them in the Gallows nearly all the time, how were they supposed to help anyway?

Whether or not they would be allowed to help is one thing but if I'm remembering the dialogue correctly it's rare for the mages to even offer.

GavrielKay wrote...
Expecting the oppressed people to aid their oppressors in anything other
than the most extreme dire circumstances is just not reasonable.

People are being murdered and every insane mage, every abomination, every blood mage, tightens the noose around the necks of the rest of them.  I'd say cricumstances are sufficiently dire for the mages of Kirkwall.

GavrielKay wrote...
To apostates and runaways I'd say good luck and godspeed!  If Meredith had been less focused on harassing circle mages, she might have had more time to hunt down the blood mage gangs.  Had she spent less time as acting Viscount she might have had more time to control her Templars and keep them from tormenting the mages.

Yes as I said Meredith was very bad at her job, ridiculously so.

GavrielKay wrote...
Meredith commits an evil act believing it to be good.

See I never got that, I generally don't side with the Templars in the final decision but when she's confronted about how she can't paint all mages with the same brush because of a few she expresses what seems like geniune remorse.  She doesn't like what she's doing but feels there's no other way.

Here 

I'm not saying her goals are right but I never got that she was under any delusions about what she was doing.  She knew what she was doing was terrible but felt there was no other way to deal with the problems she faced.

GavrielKay wrote...
They are very different.  That both of them happen to do bad things that they believe are necessary isn't really enough to equate them.

Well there's also the raving lunacy, paranoia, refusal to seek compromise, mystic doodad making them bonkers, their love of dresses, willingness to kill people simply for their association, and I'm sure with a bit more time I could come up with more.

[Xilizhra]

I love how you say this like the only reason for her actions is mustache twirling villainy. Misguided and insane though she may be Meredith is working to protect the non-mages (you know the majority of people) from blood mages and abominations (which are rampant) as well as the reason for the initial set up of the Circle which was in response to 1,000 plus years of Magister tyranny, which is continually shown to be necessary by the on going Magister tyranny in present day Tevinter.

Meredith is... honestly, I think much of the blame for Meredith's reign can be laid at Elthina's feet for promoting someone with such an obviously unstable and bias-creating background. I think she's too crazy to be completely responsible for her actions, but regardless of her reasons, she upholds evil.

You then have a mage, an abomination no less blowing up the Chantry and claiming to act for all mages, but we're not supposed to lump the Circle in with him?

Correct, when the alternative is baseless genocide.

Imagine I witnessed a group of KKK members beating on a black man, if I were to just walk away I would be expressing approval of their actions even if I never say it. If on the other hand I call the police and rush the group I am clearly demonstrating that I do not.

Your analogy is crap. It's more like you being a Jew in WW2 Germany watching the Inglorious Basterds in action, or possibly closer to you being the black guy and watching Black Panthers beating up an Atlanta cop.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 janvier 2012 - 03:21 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

I love how you say this like the only reason for her actions is mustache twirling villainy. Misguided and insane though she may be Meredith is working to protect the non-mages (you know the majority of people) from blood mages and abominations (which are rampant) as well as the reason for the initial set up of the Circle which was in response to 1,000 plus years of Magister tyranny, which is continually shown to be necessary by the on going Magister tyranny in present day Tevinter.

Meredith is... honestly, I think much of the blame for Meredith's reign can be laid at Elthina's feet for promoting someone with such an obviously unstable and bias-creating background. I think she's too crazy to be completely responsible for her actions, but regardless of her reasons, she upholds evil.

So disregarding her reasons, her reasons for extreme actions are what separates her from Anders.  That was your comment, that Anders was looking to end an evil and corrupt status quo while Meredith was trying to maintain one and that's why they were different.  I pointed out that Meredith was not looking to uphold said status quo for it's own sake, but because it's the best way she can think of to protect the vast majority of people from a power they have no means of fighting.  Yes she upholds an evil because the only conceivable alternative is far, far worse for far more people.

Xilizhra wrote...

You then have a mage, an abomination no less blowing up the Chantry and claiming to act for all mages, but we're not supposed to lump the Circle in with him?

Correct, when the alternative is baseless genocide.

It's not baseless though that was the point of the build up to that statement.  The Circle has, implicitly at least, approved of the actions of criminal mages.  By doing nothing, saying nothing, against people like Tarohne, Decimus, and Grace they have cast their lot with them.  They can't cry out, "We're not like them" when they've done nothing in 7 years to distance themselves from these mages.

Xilizhra wrote...

Imagine I witnessed a group of KKK members beating on a black man, if I were to just walk away I would be expressing approval of their actions even if I never say it. If on the other hand I call the police and rush the group I am clearly demonstrating that I do not.

Your analogy is crap. It's more like you being a Jew in WW2 Germany watching the Inglorious Basterds in action, or possibly closer to you being the black guy and watching Black Panthers beating up an Atlanta cop.

I chose the KKK because it was the first thing that came to mind that would achieve almost universal consensus to demonstrate implicit approval.  There are people who would see not helping the cop as the right thing to do, but nobody sides with the KKK.  It wasn't meant as a direct analogy just an example where everyone would agree I could do something, I should do something, and I'm as bad as they are if I don't.

It's the same with the mages; they could publicly denounce the wacko mages, they could offer to help the Templars police the Circle and Kirkwall, they should do something at least, they don't and as such they're just as bad as the worst of them.  And again the same thing goes for the Templars; the best of them who do nothing are as bad as the worst.

[TEWR]

I highly doubt that Meredith and her cronies would be willing to believe the mages want to help the Templars. They'd probably be incredibly suspicious of them if the mages said "We want to help", possibly going so far as to frame them and kill them.

And honestly, when the Templars who are in high points of authority are Meredith's cronies like Kerras and Alrik who deliberately abuse their position and the Templars themselves don't do anything to reign them in, I would not try and pin anything on the mages.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

When the Templars have been abusing their power ever since Meredith took over and absolutely no one except the mages and the few decent Templars in Kirkwall's Order have been trying to improve things, I can see good reason why they're not going to assist those same abusive Templars.

Your analogy on the KKK applies to the Templars as well. The Templars beat the mages and rape them, and no one lifts a finger to help them! No one gives a damn! Not Elthina and certainly not Meredith.

Meredith knew Alrik was illegally using the RoT on mages, but she didn't do anything about it. And you want to say the mages should've helped the Templars?

The citizenry, fellow mages, and the few decent Templars are the only ones aiding the mages by helping them escape from a prison of another name. But other than that, Kirkwall's mages receive absolutely no help and no fair treatment.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 janvier 2012 - 03:57 .

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
Because if the moderates refuse to even attempt to reign in the extremists when they go too far they are expressing implicit consent (yes this applies to the Templars as well).  By doing nothing, nor offering to do anything, they are essentially approving the actions of these mages.

We don't know what the circle mages were doing except when they're fighting for their lives at the end.  For all we know, they were secretly working with the underground to try to kill the rogue mages before they could cause more trouble.  I'm not saying we're meant to believe that, but we aren't shown anything either way.  I wouldn't expect mages to work openly against other mages, in full sight of the Templars.  I wouldn't expect anyone anywhere to offer to work with Karras

Imagine I witnessed a group of KKK members beating on a black man, if I were to just walk away I would be expressing approval of their actions even if I never say it.  If on the other hand I call the police and rush the group I am clearly demonstrating that I do not.

Assuming that a mage was passively watching another mage hurting an innocent this might apply.  But locked away in the tower, away from where things are actually happening is different.  It doesn't make sense to blame mages for doing nothing when there's nothing they can do.  Sitting around in the tower bemoaning the actions of apostate mages only accomplishes making the Templars crazier; it doesn't protect any innocents.

People are being murdered and every insane mage, every abomination, every blood mage, tightens the noose around the necks of the rest of them.  I'd say cricumstances are sufficiently dire for the mages of Kirkwall.

No, circumstances are dire for the mages in the Gallows because Meredith through encouragement or incompetence is allowing them to be abused.  There aren't a lot of crimes that you could possibly say should be punished by rape, whipping and Tranquiling.  Thus, the incentive to help put more mages into that situation is pretty much nonexistant, no matter what those mages might be up to.

See I never got that, I generally don't side with the Templars in the final decision but when she's confronted about how she can't paint all mages with the same brush because of a few she expresses what seems like geniune remorse.  She doesn't like what she's doing but feels there's no other way.

She says she is eager to begin with a gleam in her eye.  She also gave Hawke a dirty look for having the temerity to defeat the Arishok and thus become a hero to Kirkwall - stealing goodwill that Meredith wanted for herself.  She is not written as a "good" character at all IMHO.

Well there's also the raving lunacy, paranoia, refusal to seek compromise, mystic doodad making them bonkers, their love of dresses, willingness to kill people simply for their association, and I'm sure with a bit more time I could come up with more.

Anders sought compromise for 7 years as I recall.  Talking to Elthina, writing his manifesto, trying to gain public support as a healer.  What was Meredith doing during those 7 years?  Taking over a city and allowing mages to be tortured.

"Their love of dresses" made me giiggle though

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I highly doubt that Meredith and her cronies would be willing to believe the mages want to help the Templars. They'd probably be incredibly suspicious of them if the mages said "We want to help", possibly going so far as to frame them and kill them.

Kerras seems more than willing to believe MageHawke is there to help if you go that route, but that may have just been that one Templar in that one instance.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And honestly, when the Templars who are in high points of authority are Meredith's cronies like Kerras and Alrik who deliberately abuse their position and the Templars themselves don't do anything to reign them in, I would not try and pin anything on the mages.

...

Your analogy on the KKK applies to the Templars as well. The Templars beat the mages and rape them, and no one lifts a finger to help them! No one gives a damn! Not Elthina and certainly not Meredith.

DPSSOC wrote...
Because if the moderates refuse to even attempt to reign in the extremists when they go too far they are expressing implicit consent (yes this applies to the Templars as well). By doing nothing, nor offering to do anything, they are essentially approving the actions of these mages.

DPSSOC wrote...
It's the same with the mages; they could publicly denounce the wacko mages, they could offer to help the Templars police the Circle and Kirkwall, they should do something at least, they don't and as such they're just as bad as the worst of them. And again the same thing goes for the Templars; the best of them who do nothing are as bad as the worst.

I acknowledge my criticism of the mages applies to the Templars, but we all know that, we've all established that, just like we all know that Anders intentions weren't mustache twirlingly evil.  What nobody acknowledges, nobody accepts, is that the mages sat on their hands while their own did wrong too, and that Merediths actions, while horrific, were not motivated simply by a hate for mages.  She has seen the damage a single mage can do if they fall and aims to prevent it for the good of the people.  Her methods are rightly criticized but her intentions are no more malicious than Anders'.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Meredith knew Alrik was illegally using the RoT on mages, but she didn't do anything about it. And you want to say the mages should've helped the Templars?

It's cyclical, the mages can't trust the Templars because Meredith is brutal, Meredith is brutal because she can't trust the mages,  At some point one side has to stop it.  By demonstrating that they are willing to assist in policing themselves Meredith can afford to loosen her grip, granting the mages greater freedoms.  With greater freedoms they can police themselves better and Meredith can loosen her grip again, and on, and on until it reaches the point Meredith doesn't feel she needs thugs like Kerras and Alrik to keep the mages in line.  Now this would work if it started early (around Tarohne) and Meredith didn't get the Idol.  That the mages did nothing for too long, and Meredith was too far gone, made any kind of cooperation impossible.

[Xilizhra]

So disregarding her reasons, her reasons for extreme actions are what separates her from Anders. That was your comment, that Anders was looking to end an evil and corrupt status quo while Meredith was trying to maintain one and that's why they were different. I pointed out that Meredith was not looking to uphold said status quo for it's own sake, but because it's the best way she can think of to protect the vast majority of people from a power they have no means of fighting. Yes she upholds an evil because the only conceivable alternative is far, far worse for far more people.

No it's not. If people can't conceive a better future, they're really not trying.

It's not baseless though that was the point of the build up to that statement. The Circle has, implicitly at least, approved of the actions of criminal mages. By doing nothing, saying nothing, against people like Tarohne, Decimus, and Grace they have cast their lot with them. They can't cry out, "We're not like them" when they've done nothing in 7 years to distance themselves from these mages.

They can't do anything. They're basically powerless. And Grace didn't do anything major until Meredith had gone completely insane and even many templars wanted to overthrow her.

That the mages did nothing for too long, and Meredith was too far gone, made any kind of cooperation impossible.

Meredith was already too far gone. Any weakness shown by the Circle wouldn't lead to more freedoms, just Meredith squeezing tighter.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 janvier 2012 - 04:30 .

[DPSSOC]

GavrielKay wrote...

Well there's also the raving lunacy, paranoia, refusal to seek compromise, mystic doodad making them bonkers, their love of dresses, willingness to kill people simply for their association, and I'm sure with a bit more time I could come up with more.

Anders sought compromise for 7 years as I recall.  Talking to Elthina, writing his manifesto, trying to gain public support as a healer.  What was Meredith doing during those 7 years?  Taking over a city and allowing mages to be tortured.

No Anders sought peaceful resolution, that's entirely different.  Anders makes it quite clear that he'll accept nothing short of the abolishment of the Circle.  That he attempted to do so peacefully is admirable, but he still wouldn't accept a middle ground solution.  Even if he was willing to compromise that still leaves 5 common qualities.

GavrielKay wrote...
"Their love of dresses" made me giiggle though

This thread needs more giggles.  We start taking these things too seriously we start losing perspective; can't see the forest for the trees and all that.

[Xilizhra]

No Anders sought peaceful resolution, that's entirely different. Anders makes it quite clear that he'll accept nothing short of the abolishment of the Circle. That he attempted to do so peacefully is admirable, but he still wouldn't accept a middle ground solution. Even if he was willing to compromise that still leaves 5 common qualities.

It's "the Chantry Circle continues to exist," or "the Chantry Circle stops existing." There is no middle ground.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
It's cyclical, the mages can't trust the Templars because Meredith is brutal, Meredith is brutal because she can't trust the mages

The more systemic problem is that the Chantry makes a point of recruiting and promoting Templars who are more devout than sensible.  In any situation where actual justice was sought, you would not put a woman whose mage sister had destroyed her family and village into a position of power over mages.

Meredith is not interested in learning to trust the mages.  She feels it is her duty to never trust them.  She considers it a weakness to relax her guard.

[TEWR]

That's a pipe dream. Saying Meredith would've loosened her grip is like saying the Qunari are going to consider staying away from Thedosian lands. Meredith's grip has been tight on the mages ever since she rose to Knight Commander a decade prior to Hawke's arrival in Kirkwall. Before Meredith, things were different. Mages and Templars actually worked together and got along, as Thrask and Tobrius state.

Things are different now.

And for the record, Orsino employed Hawke to find out what the mages were up to. He didn't know and he couldn't risk trying to find out himself for fear of Meredith casting him in with them. And she did, going so far as to call Hawke a blood mage thrall of Orsino's just for stating the truth.

If the First Enchanter is willing to find out what the hell is going on and asks Hawke to try and stop it without bloodshed, then I'd say he's doing what he needs to do. He doesn't know what the hell is happening but he needs someone to help him since he can't leave the Gallows without drawing Meredith's attention and he wants to know.

When Hawke informs him of what was happening, Orsino is left without one critical piece of information: they were using blood magic. As such, he cannot be said to have shown support for blood magic being used. If he had been told, he probably would've shaken his head in disappointment.

Even at the endgame in one of the game's worst and most idiotic moments, he still despises blood magic but believes there is no other way now.

And as a note to people who try and use the rebellion as evidence against the mages: the "rebellion" was against Meredith and her like-minded cronies. Not against the Chantry or for the freedom of mages. It was against the fascist dictator abusing her power in various forms in an effort to improve the Circle.

Since no one in authority was doing anything about Meredith, they took matters into their own hands.

You want a self-policing force of people for the Mages and Templars? That was them. And unfortunately, plot stupidity took over.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 janvier 2012 - 04:41 .

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
No Anders sought peaceful resolution, that's entirely different.  Anders makes it quite clear that he'll accept nothing short of the abolishment of the Circle.  That he attempted to do so peacefully is admirable, but he still wouldn't accept a middle ground solution.  Even if he was willing to compromise that still leaves 5 common qualities.

An old boss told me a story about a friend of hers:  The husband asked his wife if he could have a pet snake.  She freaked out and said absolutely not.  So he said, how about a turtle?  And she said ok.

He really only wanted the turtle.

Anders might as well ask the Chantry for complete freedom, because demanding complete freedom might make "more freedom" seem like a reasonable compromise.

The mages have zero bargaining position.  The Chantry has to be forced to the table for there to be any compromise at all.  I object to the idea that the mages are obligated to wait around for the Chantry to feel like offering concessions in order to avoid violence.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 30 janvier 2012 - 04:45 .

[Plaintiff]

I find these two particular statements very interesting

DPSSOC wrote...
Because if the moderates refuse to even attempt to reign in the extremists when they go too far they are expressing implicit consent (yes this applies to the Templars as well).  By doing nothing, nor offering to do anything, they are essentially approving the actions of these mages.

Sure, that makes sense. But hey, maybe the mages do approve of these "extremist" actions. Templars treat them like dirt and make their lives a living hell. Why should they give two ****s if someone somewhere is giving their tormentors more grief? I for one, would welcome the distraction.

So disregarding her reasons, her reasons for extreme actions are what separates her from Anders. That was your comment, that Anders was looking to end an evil and corrupt status quo while Meredith was trying to maintain one and that's why they were different. I pointed out that Meredith was not looking to uphold said status quo for it's own sake, but because it's the best way she can think of to protect the vast majority of people from a power they have no means of fighting. Yes she upholds an evil because the only conceivable alternative is far, far worse for far more people.

Putting aside judgements about whether the alternative would be better or worse (we can't honestly know this, so it's all just speculation), I want to know why mages, or anyone else, for that matter, should care what happens to the general population of Thedas.

You said that inaction implies approval of abuse. Does that not apply to the nobles and peasants of Thedas, who have done little or nothing to prevent or even protest the poor treatment of mages, some of whom might be their own flesh and blood? Given that their freedom and happiness is apparently contingent on the imprisonment and abuse of a minority, which they accept without question, do they really deserve it?

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

So disregarding her reasons, her reasons for extreme actions are what separates her from Anders. That was your comment, that Anders was looking to end an evil and corrupt status quo while Meredith was trying to maintain one and that's why they were different. I pointed out that Meredith was not looking to uphold said status quo for it's own sake, but because it's the best way she can think of to protect the vast majority of people from a power they have no means of fighting. Yes she upholds an evil because the only conceivable alternative is far, far worse for far more people.

No it's not. If people can't conceive a better future, they're really not trying.

When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule, and every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors, I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not baseless though that was the point of the build up to that statement. The Circle has, implicitly at least, approved of the actions of criminal mages. By doing nothing, saying nothing, against people like Tarohne, Decimus, and Grace they have cast their lot with them. They can't cry out, "We're not like them" when they've done nothing in 7 years to distance themselves from these mages.

They can't do anything. They're basically powerless. And Grace didn't do anything major until Meredith had gone completely insane and even many templars wanted to overthrow her.

And again my point is that they didn't even try.  Even a gesture of offering assistance would have sufficed to distance themselves from the loonies.  They didn't do that, they didn't speak out or offer help, or encourage action they just sat in their tower and gave them their silent approval.  I can understand why they wouldn't but that doesn't change the position that put them in.

As for Grace she knowingly followed a blood mage with clear designs of conquest and asked you to kill a man for no other reason than he was wearing the wrong dress.

Xilizhra wrote...

That the mages did nothing for too long, and Meredith was too far gone, made any kind of cooperation impossible.

Meredith was already too far gone. Any weakness shown by the Circle wouldn't lead to more freedoms, just Meredith squeezing tighter.

She spared runaways and possible blood mages with no more restriction than I would get if a group of friends and I vandalized someone's home (not allowed to own certain items, not allowed to associate with said friends).  That's fairly light considering people are dead and they're under suspicion of having started the fire.

[Plaintiff]

GavrielKay wrote...
The mages have zero bargaining position.  The Chantry has to be forced to the table for there to be any compromise at all.  I object to the idea that the mages are obligated to wait around for the Chantry to feel like offering concessions in order to avoid violence.

Thank you!

I can just imagine the sort of response you'd get from the Civil Rights groups of today if someone told them to be patient and wait for the government to come around of its own accord.

[TEWR]

When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule, and every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors, I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.

Oh please. Tevinter has been a breeding ground for that type of culture where their own history talked about mages being allowed to rule, ever since its founding. You can't go and use that against the mages when they've been taught that they shouldn't want to rule over anyone and should want to help them.

And you know who else was oppressed and freed? Elves. And look what happened to them. The Chantry decided to oppress the people that aided their holy maiden.

When Elves were free, they didn't oppress anyone. They just wanted to live in peace with their own culture, and the Chantry had a few choice words for them: Convert or die.

[Xilizhra]

When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule, and every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors, I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.

Uh. Dalish have some kind of power sharing program going with the hahren and Keeper. Rivain has their seers. And I don't think that my Hawke is insane for hoping this can happen.

As for Grace she knowingly followed a blood mage with clear designs of conquest and asked you to kill a man for no other reason than he was wearing the wrong dress.

Imagine it as a guy in a snazzy black uniform with a totenkopf hat and swastika armband. That's the emotional association and likely affiliation we're going for here.

She spared runaways and possible blood mages with no more restriction than I would get if a group of friends and I vandalized someone's home (not allowed to own certain items, not allowed to associate with said friends). That's fairly light considering people are dead and they're under suspicion of having started the fire.

And... locked into the Circle... what?

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule, and every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors, I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.

Every documented instance?  As in the one case of Tevinter?  Sure, Tevinter is an awful place, one that could be razed to the ground and my Hawke and Warden would be perfectly pleased.

But...  we know a number of mages who genuinely want to live and be happy like everyone else.  Bethany, Malcolm, Morrigan, any elven mage, Rivaini seers, the mage collective...

There are already quite a few free mages in Thedas and they don't seem to be very far on their way to creating a new Tevinter.  I can think of only Tarohne who was even trying for it.  Even other evil mages seem to be more about getting power for themselves than organizing a whole structure around magical power that would put them in competiion with other mages. 

From what I recall Tevinter doesn't even seem like a good place to be for mages - so it's hard to imagine many of them wanting to recreate it.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...
When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule,

So what if it does? Mages ruling is not an inherently bad thing. The important thing is not who rules, but how they do it.

every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors,

Exactly how many "documented cases" are there in DA lore? How long did it take for the liberators to evolve into oppressors? One year? Ten years? A hundred?

I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.

And yet, in our own world, we totally trust Britain, Rome and Germany to refrain from future attempts at imperialistic invasion, and so far they've been pretty good about it.

[TEWR]

As for Grace she knowingly followed a blood mage with clear designs of conquest and asked you to kill a man for no other reason than he was wearing the wrong dress.

Yea.... Decimus didn't want to rule over anybody, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

[TEWR]

So what if it does? Mages ruling is not an inherently bad thing. The important thing is not who rules, but how they do it.

But they can burn down a town in the blink of an eye and become possessed! They shouldn't rule! -[/sarcasm]

Seriously though, I agree that the how is what's important. However, I am personally reluctant to include mages in the political scene, but that doesn't mean I think that they shouldn't rule. Just not immediately if they ever attain freedom. It should be a gradual process.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

No Anders sought peaceful resolution, that's entirely different. Anders makes it quite clear that he'll accept nothing short of the abolishment of the Circle. That he attempted to do so peacefully is admirable, but he still wouldn't accept a middle ground solution. Even if he was willing to compromise that still leaves 5 common qualities.

It's "the Chantry Circle continues to exist," or "the Chantry Circle stops existing." There is no middle ground.

Yes that's his mindset. Just as Meredith's is that she has to rule the mages with an iron fist or there'll be blood mages and abominations everywhere killing people. Neither believes in the existence of a middle ground.

Plaintiff wrote...

I find these two particular statements very interesting

DPSSOC wrote...
Because if the moderates refuse to even attempt to reign in the extremists when they go too far they are expressing implicit consent (yes this applies to the Templars as well).  By doing nothing, nor offering to do anything, they are essentially approving the actions of these mages.

Sure, that makes sense. But hey, maybe the mages do approve of these "extremist" actions. Templars treat them like dirt and make their lives a living hell. Why should they give two ****s if someone somewhere is giving their tormentors more grief? I for one, would welcome the distraction.

Simple because their tormentors can't alwasy get the someone giving them grief, and they will take it out on them.  No matter how bad someone is making your life they can always make it worse.

Plaintiff wrote...
Putting aside judgements about whether the alternative would be better or worse (we can't honestly know this, so it's all just speculation), I want to know why mages, or anyone else, for that matter, should care what happens to the general population of Thedas.

They shouldn't, and generally they don't.  Meredith is certain that the alternative would be worse for her, she'd be out a job. She may also believe that the alternative would be worse for Thedas in general but we don't know.  There is no reason to care about the well being of other people in Thedas but some people still do.

Plaintiff wrote...
You said that inaction implies approval of abuse. Does that not apply to the nobles and peasants of Thedas, who have done little or nothing to prevent or even protest the poor treatment of mages, some of whom might be their own flesh and blood?

 
To an extent yes.  Which isn't to say they're responsible but when the hammer comes down they can't expect the "We didn't do anything," excuse to fly.

Plaintiff wrote...
Given that their freedom and happiness is apparently contingent on the imprisonment and abuse of a minority, which they accept without question, do they really deserve it?

Everybody's freedom is contingent on somebody's oppression we're just not always aware of who.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:02 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes that's his mindset. Just as Meredith's is that she has to rule the mages with an iron fist or there'll be blood mages and abominations everywhere killing people. Neither believes in the existence of a middle ground.

There can be something Circle-like, but the Chantry can't rule it.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



[quote]When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule, and every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors, I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.[/quote]Oh please. Tevinter has been a breeding ground for that type of culture where their own history talked about mages being allowed to rule, ever since its founding. You can't go and use that against the mages when they've been taught that they shouldn't want to rule over anyone and should want to help them.[/quote]

Tevinter is the most obvious but it's not the only one.  Dalish Keepers, Rivaini Seers, and Chasind Shamans are all free mage societies and all place mages in a position of authourity.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And you know who else was oppressed and freed? Elves. And look what happened to them. The Chantry decided to oppress the people that aided their holy maiden.

When Elves were free, they didn't oppress anyone. They just wanted to live in peace with their own culture, and the Chantry had a few choice words for them: Convert or die.[/quote]
[/quote]

That's one way to look at it, another way being they treated any humans who dared enter their land like scum and called an invasion down upon themselves.  The only reason the elves weren't set up as the new grand oppressor is that the humans militarized faster and had greater numbers.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]As for Grace she knowingly followed a blood mage with clear designs of conquest and asked you to kill a man for no other reason than he was wearing the wrong dress.[/quote]Imagine it as a guy in a snazzy black uniform with a totenkopf hat and swastika armband. That's the emotional association and likely affiliation we're going for here.[/quote]

Fair enough

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...



[quote]She spared runaways and possible blood mages with no more restriction than I would get if a group of friends and I vandalized someone's home (not allowed to own certain items, not allowed to associate with said friends). That's fairly light considering people are dead and they're under suspicion of having started the fire.[/quote]And... locked into the Circle... what?[/quote]

Yeah I'd serve jail time too and then probation. Again I point out people are dead and there's a good chance they're responsible, they got off light.

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule, and every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors, I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.[/quote]

Every documented instance? As in the one case of Tevinter? Sure, Tevinter is an awful place, one that could be razed to the ground and my Hawke and Warden would be perfectly pleased.

But... we know a number of mages who genuinely want to live and be happy like everyone else. Bethany, Malcolm, Morrigan, any elven mage, Rivaini seers, the mage collective...[/quote]

Dalish, mages run the tribes, mages are the only ones deemed fit to run the tribes, Rivaini Seers and Chasind Shamans all varying degrees of the ruling class.

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...
From what I recall Tevinter doesn't even seem like a good place to be for mages - so it's hard to imagine many of them wanting to recreate it.
[/quote]

Tevinters bad for the mages at the bottom, the people trying to recreate it would be on the top.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
When every documented instance of mage freedom results in mage rule,[/quote]
So what if it does? Mages ruling is not an inherently bad thing. The important thing is not who rules, but how they do it.



[quote]every documented case of freeing the oppressed results in them turning around to become the new oppressors,[/quote]
Exactly how many "documented cases" are there in DA lore? How long did it take for the liberators to evolve into oppressors? One year? Ten years? A hundred?[/quote]

Well we have the Elven treatment of humans in the Dales (they were kinda dicks), and the non-mage slaves of Tevinter. I suspect the former was instant since the Dalish all have sticks so far up their backsides they could get through another two or three and this seems to be a point of pride so I'm guessing dicks of long standing. As for the Chantry if we go from the end of the rebellion to the founding of the chantry it's 170 years. Most of which was taken up by the establishment of new nations.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...



[quote]I'm pretty sure expecting anything different to happen qualifies as insanity.[/quote]
And yet, in our own world, we totally trust Britain, Rome and Germany to refrain from future attempts at imperialistic invasion, and so far they've been pretty good about it.
[/quote]

Yes because of the rise of more and more great powers makes such imperial expansion difficult and the simple fact that even conventional warfare has become too destructive to make wars of conquest particularly viable, what good is conquering a nation if you've destroyed everything that made it worth having.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



[quote]As for Grace she knowingly followed a blood mage with clear designs of conquest and asked you to kill a man for no other reason than he was wearing the wrong dress.[/quote]

Yea.... Decimus didn't want to rule over anybody, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.[/quote]

So he was attempting to raise an army of the undead because...fun?

Modifié par DPSSOC, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:27 .