2008 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

What gets me is that Meredith takes it upon herself to mutiny, and execute the previous Knight Comander/Viscount, and she isn't jailed for her actions.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

I know, but the Chantry is not the Templars and the Templars are not the Chantry.

It's actually made quite clear that the Divine has been trying to work for greater Mage freedom for some time but the Templars, Lord Seeker and centuries of doctrine have been doing their best to stonewall her.  And they have been quite effective.

It shouldn't have happened if the Lord Seeker was trying to recruit Jailers.  However, it is made somewhat aparent that some of the Templars are looking for Punishers more so.  I'm just trying to give some insight into the inner workings of the Templars and Chantry.

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
 I've already gone to lengths to describe why Elthina really couldn't accomplish much and her true duty was to keep the people of Kirkwall safe

Which, by the way, she didn't do. Which is my point.

I see you fancy yourself a mind-reader.

She was doing quite well until Anders killed her, especially considering the alternative was mass slaughter, abominations and demons roaming the streets, and the massacre of nearly every mage in the city.

Unless of course you can point out where Meredith was ordering the mass executions of the people in Kirkwall for harboring blood mages or somesuch, then yes, it would be fair to say the people of Kirkwall were much better off when Elthina was looking after then than without her.

Not a mind reader, just experience.

No, by allowing Meredith to be in charge she was in fact doing very badly. Meredith in the position of acting-Viscount is bad news for everybody. The people of Kirkwall are far from safe with her in charge. The fact that Meredith never got around to slaughtering them is sheer luck, not a testament to Elthina's competence.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[Heimdall]

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

What gets me is that Meredith takes it upon herself to mutiny, and execute the previous Knight Comander/Viscount, and she isn't jailed for her actions.

The previous Viscount wasn't the Knight Commander, was he?  And he tried to oust the TEmplars from the city first, which was likely veiwed as a move against the chantry.  The people of Kirkwall, being faithful Andrastrians, probably greeted her with a heros welcome.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
 I've already gone to lengths to describe why Elthina really couldn't accomplish much and her true duty was to keep the people of Kirkwall safe

Which, by the way, she didn't do. Which is my point.

I see you fancy yourself a mind-reader.

She was doing quite well until Anders killed her, especially considering the alternative was mass slaughter, abominations and demons roaming the streets, and the massacre of nearly every mage in the city.

Unless of course you can point out where Meredith was ordering the mass executions of the people in Kirkwall for harboring blood mages or somesuch, then yes, it would be fair to say the people of Kirkwall were much better off when Elthina was looking after then than without her.

Not a mind reader, just experience.

No, by allowing Meredith to be in charge she was in fact doing very badly. Meredith in the position of acting-Viscount is bad news for everybody. The people of Kirkwall are far from safe with her in charge. The fact that Meredith never got around to slaughtering them is sheer luck, not a testament to Elthina's competence.

Once again you vastly overestimate Elthina's real power.

Once you understand that her power only extends to however much Meredith is willing to listen to her, we'll talk.

[WhiteKnyght]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

Well the reason why you should is because then you'd know that the Chantry -- contrary to popular belief -- does not control the Templar Order. They existed before the Chantry and the union of the Circle, Chantry, and Templars was a mutual one, not forced. After Andraste's death all mages submitted to create the Circles of Magi, even Tevinter (even though it didn't last and resulted in a schism that created the Imperial Chantry.)

Meredith may need Elthina's approval for certain matters, like annulment, but at the end of the day she answers to the Lord-Seeker, who is arguably just as hard on mages as she is pre-idol.

As soon as I'm able(I'm saving my money for a 3DS atm) I'm going to buy Asunder. But that hasn't stopped me from researching.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[The Hierophant]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

What gets me is that Meredith takes it upon herself to mutiny, and execute the previous Knight Comander/Viscount, and she isn't jailed for her actions.

The previous Knight Commander wasn't the Viscount, was he?  And he tried to oust the TEmplars from the city first, which was likely veiwed as a move against the chantry.  The people of Kirkwall, being faithful Andrastrians, probably greeted her with a heros welcome.

She's still took it upon herself to kill a superior officer without approval from the higher ups.

[WhiteKnyght]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

What gets me is that Meredith takes it upon herself to mutiny, and execute the previous Knight Comander/Viscount, and she isn't jailed for her actions.

The previous Knight Commander wasn't the Viscount, was he?  And he tried to oust the TEmplars from the city first, which was likely veiwed as a move against the chantry.  The people of Kirkwall, being faithful Andrastrians, probably greeted her with a heros welcome.

She's still took it upon herself to kill a superior officer without approval from the higher ups.

Viscount and Templar aren't in the same chain of command. So Viscount Perrin wasn't her superior.

Besides it's been fact for a long time that Viscount was a figurehead position and the Templars were the real power in Kirkwall. Thats why Meredith had Dumar appointed as Viscount and why she took the job herself after his death, because the Templars were always in control.

[Heimdall]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff, have you actually read Asunder yet? If you did you'd know it was Lord Seeker that appoints the Templar commanders, he can even go against the Divine's direct suggestion.

I haven't and don't see any particular reason why I should.

It doesn't matter who precisely is responsible for Meredith's promotion; my point is that it should never have happened in the first place.

What gets me is that Meredith takes it upon herself to mutiny, and execute the previous Knight Comander/Viscount, and she isn't jailed for her actions.

The previous Knight Commander wasn't the Viscount, was he?  And he tried to oust the TEmplars from the city first, which was likely veiwed as a move against the chantry.  The people of Kirkwall, being faithful Andrastrians, probably greeted her with a heros welcome.

She's still took it upon herself to kill a superior officer without approval from the higher ups.

A local ruler has no place in the Templar chain of command.  So it was not even a mutiny.

[Aggie Punbot]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Unless of course you can point out where Meredith was ordering the mass executions of the people in Kirkwall for harboring blood mages or somesuch, then yes, it would be fair to say the people of Kirkwall were much better off when Elthina was looking after then than without her.

Didn't A Noble Agenda pretty much show that the templars were doing just that? There was a group of them threatening a woman for giving her apostate cousin some food and shelter after she showed up in a whipped and starved state.

[The Hierophant]

^^ Nah, i'm talking about the Knight Commander before her who she killed.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[WhiteKnyght]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Unless of course you can point out where Meredith was ordering the mass executions of the people in Kirkwall for harboring blood mages or somesuch, then yes, it would be fair to say the people of Kirkwall were much better off when Elthina was looking after then than without her.

Didn't A Noble Agenda pretty much show that the templars were doing just that? There was a group of them threatening a woman for giving her apostate cousin some food and shelter after she showed up in a whipped and starved state.

You forgot that it was a setup tho. Once Hawke got there the 'victim' turned hostile and attacked too.

It's true that the Templars bully people. And everybody knows it. Even Cullen admits that these days people slam their doors in Templar's faces and sympathy for mages is on the rise. Elthina's wait and watch policy might have had more merit than people give her credit for. It might not have taken too long before popular opinion changed for the better and the Templars found themselves forced to release the mages.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Hierophant wrote...

^^ Nah, i'm talking about the Knight Commander before her who she killed.

The previous Knight Commander was killed by the previous Viscount.

[The Hierophant]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

^^ Nah, i'm talking about the Knight Commander before her who she killed.

The previous Knight Commander was killed by the previous Viscount.

 Oh s*** i remembered it wrong, i concede...

[Heimdall]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Unless of course you can point out where Meredith was ordering the mass executions of the people in Kirkwall for harboring blood mages or somesuch, then yes, it would be fair to say the people of Kirkwall were much better off when Elthina was looking after then than without her.

Didn't A Noble Agenda pretty much show that the templars were doing just that? There was a group of them threatening a woman for giving her apostate cousin some food and shelter after she showed up in a whipped and starved state.

As The Gray Nayr noted, that particular instance was a setup, so it's difficult to judge it's accuracy.  Even if we did, he was threatening to arrest her not murder her.  Hardly indicative of mass executions.

[Aggie Punbot]

Really? I've never had her turn hostile in my game. Maybe it's a glitch or something. I just remember a group of templars advancing on her and saying something to the effect of: 'You harbored a known apostate. The sentence for that is...guards! Kill them!"

And then when the battle was over, she ran away while saying: 'I...I thought I was dead! All I did was give her some food and water!"

Maybe I'm thinking of another quest?

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:58 .

[Heimdall]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Unless of course you can point out where Meredith was ordering the mass executions of the people in Kirkwall for harboring blood mages or somesuch, then yes, it would be fair to say the people of Kirkwall were much better off when Elthina was looking after then than without her.

Didn't A Noble Agenda pretty much show that the templars were doing just that? There was a group of them threatening a woman for giving her apostate cousin some food and shelter after she showed up in a whipped and starved state.

You forgot that it was a setup tho. Once Hawke got there the 'victim' turned hostile and attacked too.

It's true that the Templars bully people. And everybody knows it. Even Cullen admits that these days people slam their doors in Templar's faces and sympathy for mages is on the rise. Elthina's wait and watch policy might have had more merit than people give her credit for. It might not have taken too long before popular opinion changed for the better and the Templars found themselves forced to release the mages.

Another good point!  I'll need to remember that one.  Elthina taking action would have just accelarated the result of what Anders did.

[Heimdall]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Really? I've never had her turn hostile in my game. Maybe it's a glitch or something. I just remember a group of templars advancing on her and saying something to the effect of: 'You harbored a known apostate. The sentence for that is...guards! Kill them!"

I seem to recall everyone trying to kill me there.  I'd have to play through the game again to be 100% sure.

You may be right, even so, I don't think it means much.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:59 .

[Aggie Punbot]

It might be a different quest, but I do know the incident happens right outside of Gamlen's house. Point being, they were clearly intending to kill the woman because of her harboring a 'fugitive,' and such an action would have been given the authority by the knight-commander herself.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 23 décembre 2011 - 09:00 .

[Heimdall]

They didn't say they were going to kill her though.

[Aggie Punbot]

The tone of voice along with the words and body language made it fairly clear what they were going to do. Check it out for yourself. She does not become hostile.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 23 décembre 2011 - 09:08 .

[Heimdall]

TS2Aggie wrote...

The tone of voice along with the words and body language made it fairly clear what they were going to do. Check it out for yourself. She does not become hostile.

Interesting.  Well you're right about her not turning hostile but I have to disagree about the rest.  He didn't sound murderous, he sounded calm.  Serious, but calm.  His poise was just the typical standing pose of player characters and NPCs.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

@OP:

Brace yourself

*snip*
Mage supporters are coming.

First, I lol'd.

Second, I support Anders' actions, but I don't support how he came to the idea from a storyline perspective. To clarify, I support blowing up the Chantry, but I wish that he came to the idea of blowing up the Chantry through a different way.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 décembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Gervaise]

I agree with the poster that each is as bad as the other and that neither is actually "excused" on the grounds that they are under a bad influence. Anders admits when challenged that it was his own decision to do what he did - for all we know Justice may have actually been against it. Meredith is rational enough when she proclaims the RoA, even though she knows who is really responsible. What Anders did, as he makes clear, is to remove any chance of compromise that Elthina represented. Anders and Meredith both represent extremes. Both have valid arguments for the stance they take but are blind to the other side's point of view. To achieve a workable solution will always require a degree of compromise that neither is willing to concede.

In answer to acusations against Elthina, I suggest people read the book. As the Lord Seeker says, without the templars the chantry is just a bunch of old women with words and no teeth. At some point during Act 3 Meredith stopped taking Elthina's advice which was the limit of the influence Elthina had over her. Elthina did not control the templars, nor did she have the power to remove Meredith from office. She could have appealed to the Lord Seeker if she felt they were not doing their duties properly but that is about as far as it went. Cullen put it pretty succinctly when he said that Elthina had no choice but to support the templars because of the divine right they had over mages. She could urge them to mercy and possibly moderate Meredith's behaviour but at the end of the day, there was little she could do if they chose to ignore her. If she had had the backing of the Divine it might have been a different story, but at that time all the Divine was concerned about was that the Freemarches should not become another Tevinter, which given the prevalence of blood magic being openly used in the city, and the heavy presence of Tevinter slavers in the region, was fear founded on fact. Even so, the book does mention that Elthina's failure to act resulted in her death - but I think this was with respect to cracking down on mages rather than reining in Meredith.

Anders is mentioned as a madman in the book. I think the only mages who might possibly have sympathised with him were Adrian and Fiona.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

The tone of voice along with the words and body language made it fairly clear what they were going to do. Check it out for yourself. She does not become hostile.

Interesting.  Well you're right about her not turning hostile but I have to disagree about the rest.  He didn't sound murderous, he sounded calm.  Serious, but calm.  His poise was just the typical standing pose of player characters and NPCs.

Actually, she's right. If this is about Ser Mettin in A Noble Agenda that is.

In the Templar equivalent of this quest -- where you meet Ser Mettin and some other Templar if you supported Meredith -- Ser Mettin wants to kill the people that supported the mages and surrendered to the Templars. And when his other Templar colleague says they won't kill them but they'll take them in, he calls her a traitor and tries to kill her.

He's a murderous ****** ready to kill anyone for helping a mage and it is evident in how he said his phrase that he was planning on doing so to the lady.

I'm also fairly certain that the journal entry says something about Ser Mettin.