2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Are invoking Godwin's Law about the actual World War II or some strange imaginary one where a certain German chancelor and ex-painter didn't start the war?  I'm guessing the latter.

EDIT:  Removed a four-letter word describing the popular German political party in the 1930's and 1940's.  Didn't know the word was forbidden sorry about that, Mods.

Poor Godwin.  His law has become a mockery of itself.  It was a joke about tools comparing every politician or businessman they don't like to Hitler.  Now it's too well known and the Internet is full of people trying (and failing horribly) to sound smart by incorrectly referencing it when arguing with anyone about actual racial persecution and genocide.

But I digress.  Your attempt to dodge the point by referencing a 22 year old joke is transparent.  I rather doubt you would find the "peace" Anders disturbed acceptable if it was you or your loved ones being brutally subjugated by the Chantry.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You don't want war, but you seem to find it acceptable (at least you said you would), to sacrifice anyhting and everyhting that stands in the way of your victory. I don't want war, but if that is what is comming, I will not make any civilian sacrifices unless there are absolutely no alternatives. Hearts and minds are what wins a war, by the end of the day. Not guns and bullets.
...
You don't keep the people safe by starting a global war. You want more freedom for mages, then perhaps the mages should've grown a brain and then used the perfect political playing field they had, with several out of boudns Knight-Commanders like Meredith, and a mage-friendly Divine. But noooooo lets go bomb them churces... Yeah, the mages can go shove it now. They've already lost this war.

There are some things that are worth fighting for.  Freedom from oppression for an entire class of people is one of them.  When you have a bunch of people who feel divine responsibility to keep that class oppressed, negoatiating is pointless.  The mages had no way of knowing that Justinia had a soft side for them, especially not in Kirkwall.

I have a hard time with the idea that brutalized people aren't entitled to do whatever they can to end their torment.  If I was part of a class of people who were rounded up at puberty and put in prison at the mercy of religious zealots, I'd blow up a whole lotta things.  Why on earth would any mage care about the general populace?  You know, those folks who have the freedom to live and love and feel all warm and cozy thinking how they're protected from mages.  Too bad for them living a lie thinking all is well.

Freedom is an inherent right.  You don't have to earn it, rather you have to do something wrong to have it taken away.

And you do keep some people safe by starting a global war.  Those people would be all the future generations of mages who may get to live and die without being considered cursed and too dangerous to be allowed self determination.  They would be safer by not having the RoT or RoA hanging over their heads, or even just routine abuse like rape and whipping.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Lazy Jer wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I believe Plaintiff's point was about the starting of the mage-templar war, not about the incident at Kirkwall. I look at Anders' destruction of the Chantry, which in turn was a result of the many other things that led up to it, was not the proximate cause for the war itself; if anything the broaching of the subject of the morality and effectiveness of the Tranquility by the Divine (which happened much before the destruction of Kirkwall Circle), and then the decision during the conclave to initiate a motion for separation of the Circle from the Chantry and the resulting reaction by the Lord Seeker, among many other things that need not all be traced back to Anders' actions, at the White Spire at Val Royeaux, a year or more after the incident at Kirkwall, had as much to do with the war as the happenings at Kirkwall.

Looking at particular incident and setting that up as "the triggering incident" would perhaps be like not seeing the forest for the trees, as somebody pointed out on the last page.

I believe my powder keg annology should have adequately addressed both the forest and the trees.  I fail to see how believing that there was a triggering incident fails to acknowledge that other factors went into the development of the war in question.

You're right. I misread the original post. Sorry about that. I read that as "Anders can't alone be blamed for it," which would have been correct.

[Lazy Jer]

Rifneno wrote...

Poor Godwin.  His law has become a mockery of itself.  It was a joke about tools comparing every politician or businessman they don't like to Hitler.  Now it's too well known and the Internet is full of people trying (and failing horribly) to sound smart by incorrectly referencing it when arguing with anyone about actual racial persecution and genocide.

But I digress.  Your attempt to dodge the point by referencing a 22 year old joke is transparent.  I rather doubt you would find the "peace" Anders disturbed acceptable if it was you or your loved ones being brutally subjugated by the Chantry.

I'm not attempting to dodge anything....I genuinely want to know where in your fevered imagination you draw a legitimate comparison between the idea that Anders' not having any legitimate miliatry targets because he wasn't a military, and the German government of the 1930's and 1940's.

...or are you refering to my reaction to you're usage of the "War is hell" line?  If so then that boat still doesn't float.  WWII Era Germany signed peace treaties and their Chancellor ordered his army to invade anyway.

Regarding my family being subjugated by the Templar Order, then of course it would bother me.  But I'd feel even worse if said family was run through and left to die on the streets next to a half dozen other mages because after all this is war.

I'll state this again.  I'm not a promoter of status quo in the Circle.  I just think there was a lot better chance for mages to get the respect they need peacefully before Anders decided to try a neat trick with a collection of evil-smelling ingredients.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:08 .

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You want more freedom for mages, then perhaps the mages should've grown a brain and then used the perfect political playing field they had, with several out of boudns Knight-Commanders like Meredith, and a mage-friendly Divine. But noooooo lets go bomb them churces... Yeah, the mages can go shove it now. They've already lost this war.

Waaaait a minute.  Saying "the mages" blew up the Chantry is a bit unfair.  That was Anders specifically (please note: I'm judging from what I've played in DA:2...the bookstore hasn't got my ordered copy of Dragon Age:Asunder yet).

Anyway I'm not willing to paint the entire Chantry with the same brush as Mother Petrice, or the entire Templar Order with the same brush as Meredeth or Ser Alric.  By the same token I'm not willing to paint all mages with the same brush as Anders, or Terhone.

@MichaelFinnegan: No prob.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:07 .

[Rifneno]

Lazy Jer wrote...

I'm not attempting to dodge anything....I genuinely want to know where in your fevered imagination you draw a legitimate comparison between the idea that Anders' not having any legitimate miliatry targets because he wasn't a military, and the German government of the 1930's and 1940's.

...or are you refering to my reaction to you're usage of the "War is hell" line? If so then that boat still doesn't float. WWII Era Germany signed peace treaties and their Chancellor ordered his army to invade anyway.

Regarding my family being subjugated by the Templar Order, then of course it would bother me. But I'd feel even worse if said family was run through and left to die on the streets next to a half dozen other mages because after all this is war.

I'll state this again. I'm not a promoter of status quo in the Circle. I just think there was a lot better chance for mages to get the respect they need peacefully before Anders decided to try a neat trick with a collection of evil-smelling ingredients.

My "fevered imagination" drew the comparison because you seem to think that one can afford to pull punches and take the high road when battling an immensely powerful group of fascists with their heels on a minority's throat. No, you can't.

You think there was a chance to work it out peacefully?! This tyranny has been going on across an entirel continent for a thousand years! Let's put that in perspective. Say Lincoln never freed the slaves. Nor anyone else. In the year 2700, there'd be a chance that they could get their freedom with diplomacy and one building (hardly a skyscraper either) is too much of a price to pay to kickstart the long overdue war for freedom. That sound about right to you? Because it sounds absurd beyond description to me.

Lazy Jer wrote...

Anyway I'm not willing to paint the entire Chantry with the same brush as Mother Petrice

Funnily enough, Petrice was completely right about the qunari. She was just wrong about the reason to oppose them. And methods, but that's fairly obvious. "Ohh, one of the most elite military units in the world! Let me rile up some farmers and charge them with pitchforks!" That woman is a walking blonde joke. ... And yet, still right about the qunari.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...
I'll state this again.  I'm not a promoter of status quo in the Circle.  I just think there was a lot better chance for mages to get the respect they need peacefully before Anders decided to try a neat trick with a collection of evil-smelling ingredients.

It is possible that the mages would have a better chance of accomplishing the goal if they waited until some sort of political/military genius came around who could navigate the path to mage freedom.  It is possible that mage freedom would be eaiser and more secure if the trust of the populace could be won first.  It is possible I'm taking a game world far too seriously...

But, I really don't see how it can be right to ask any person in the situation that the mages are in to give a darn about what happens to anyone else.  Those "anyone else's" being rather unworried about the plight of the mages by and large.

The chances of the mages winning substantial freedom with diplomacy alone are approxmiately nil.  The chances of the mages winning their freedom with violence alone are rather slim.  Slim is better than nill.  If someone can step up to the plate and add diplomacy to the violence, that would be even better, but to say nothing should be done until that point is asking too much.

I've never had to worry for my life, or whether I'd get whipped or have my emotions wiped away.  I've never had to watch friends and lovers submit to those fates.  I've never been dragged away from my parents in chains to face the prospect of life in the complete control of religious zealots. 

I can only imagine what living in those conditions would do to a person.  And I think it's more surprising that it took Anders as long as it did to get violent.  In my heart of hearts, I can't fault someone for doing anything they could think of to change a situation like that of mages in the game world.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Wait, you're putting up Justinia as the fulcrum upon which mage freedom would be earned? Not likely. This is, after all, the woman who lost the loyalty of almost her entire military precisely because she wasn't hardcore enough for them.

As for the mages, really, having the Libertarians arrested would have been enough. All of the mages' problems stem from that fraternity. The Aequitarians even led a vote against secession, which passed, until the Lord Seeker, again, got too hardcore and tried to clamp down on the entire Circle - which, I repeat, had just voted to remain under Chantry control.

The only reason the Templars left her, was because she was still unwilling, even after the mages actually rebelled, to crack down on them. Justinia is or at least was, the mages best hope of changing things. Now they've brought war to the world, and only confirmed the fears of all the commoners out there. 

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You want more freedom for mages, then perhaps the mages should've grown a brain and then used the perfect political playing field they had, with several out of boudns Knight-Commanders like Meredith, and a mage-friendly Divine. But noooooo lets go bomb them churces... Yeah, the mages can go shove it now. They've already lost this war.

Waaaait a minute.  Saying "the mages" blew up the Chantry is a bit unfair.  That was Anders specifically (please note: I'm judging from what I've played in DA:2...the bookstore hasn't got my ordered copy of Dragon Age:Asunder yet).

Anyway I'm not willing to paint the entire Chantry with the same brush as Mother Petrice, or the entire Templar Order with the same brush as Meredeth or Ser Alric.  By the same token I'm not willing to paint all mages with the same brush as Anders, or Terhone.

Anders was working with a group of other mages. Wether any of them was in the Circle, is unknown, but given he had contacts within, I'd suspect they were.

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
I'll state this again.  I'm not a promoter of status quo in the Circle.  I just think there was a lot better chance for mages to get the respect they need peacefully before Anders decided to try a neat trick with a collection of evil-smelling ingredients.

It is possible that the mages would have a better chance of accomplishing the goal if they waited until some sort of political/military genius came around who could navigate the path to mage freedom.  It is possible that mage freedom would be eaiser and more secure if the trust of the populace could be won first.  It is possible I'm taking a game world far too seriously...

But, I really don't see how it can be right to ask any person in the situation that the mages are in to give a darn about what happens to anyone else.  Those "anyone else's" being rather unworried about the plight of the mages by and large.

The chances of the mages winning substantial freedom with diplomacy alone are approxmiately nil.  The chances of the mages winning their freedom with violence alone are rather slim.  Slim is better than nill.  If someone can step up to the plate and add diplomacy to the violence, that would be even better, but to say nothing should be done until that point is asking too much.

I've never had to worry for my life, or whether I'd get whipped or have my emotions wiped away.  I've never had to watch friends and lovers submit to those fates.  I've never been dragged away from my parents in chains to face the prospect of life in the complete control of religious zealots. 

I can only imagine what living in those conditions would do to a person.  And I think it's more surprising that it took Anders as long as it did to get violent.  In my heart of hearts, I can't fault someone for doing anything they could think of to change a situation like that of mages in the game world.

The chances for the mages to gain more freedoms through diplomacy was actually rather big before they decided to rebel. Now that tehy have rebelled, and the Templars have left the authority, the only one who could've helped them (Justinia), have been left almost powerless, and the mages have started a war they are almost guarenteed to lose (unless some hero aids them, which I'm sure will be an option in future games).

And now that the "cure" (for lack of a better word) to Tranquility has been found. The prospect of the Rite seems less frightening, since there will always be the hope for treatment in the future.
And if the mages actually lose all sense, and start taking the war to the commoners as well. Then the mages will never know peace, and they will have brought on their own end, since no one, will ever let them be. If the amges actually have the strength to gain their freedom, they should fight a defensive war, and prove to the world that they can actually control the power they wield (something they have so far utterly failed to do), and thus actually win the favor of the people. What they are doing though, is suicide. A slow one, but suicide none the less.

[General User]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The only reason the Templars left her, was because she was still unwilling, even after the mages actually rebelled, to crack down on them. Justinia is or at least was, the mages best hope of changing things. Now they've brought war to the world, and only confirmed the fears of all the commoners out there.

"Whoa, whoa, whoa!   That's Anders who did that!  Anders!  Most of us mages are good, decent Andrastians, who are loyal to the Crown, and just want to live our lives in peace and with just a modicum of respect!  Don't go lumping all of us in with that nutjob!"

- is what I would say to that if I were a mage.  How much good would it do... who can say?  It's worth a shot though.

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 02:14 .

[DPSSOC]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
No arguments Meredith was a terrible Knight Commander, but it is dishonest at best and delusional at worst to say, "Meredith just has it out for the mages," when she clearly has motivations outside hating mages (though that is one).

Fair enough, I guess. Although there is actually no way to know where one derives one's motivations from. But that is not the only point I was making. Observe how your own principle (about the reinforcing of trust between the mages and templars even under the most extreme of circumstances) could work and how Meredith almost thwarts it: this completely changed the way I view Cullen.

Allow me to clarify I'm saying that while Meredith was oppressing the mages (and she was) she wasn't doing it solely for kicks or because she had something against the mages, she was doing it because she felt it was the best way to protect the most people. Her motivations don't excuse her actions but neither does the fact she was wrong erase her motivations.

I suppose I'd have to acknowledge that you're right, to an extent. I don't know where Cullen gets his ideas about what it means to be a templar or where Meredith gets it from, and it's clear that they're not the same idea, and it is also clear that both the approaches won't work in practice in the same way. So, by going out of her way to save the people from the destructive tendencies of the mages, Meredith wasn't entirely in the wrong with regard to her motivations; but on the off-chance that Cullen is right about going out of his way to help mages who've not shown any real tendencies of being a danger to others, I'd have to make a case that Meredith was indeed severly negligent in her motivations, by disregarding a critical part of her duties; which would probably have to be traced back to her letting of her personal experiences rule over her reasoning powers.

Again no argument Meredith was terrible at her job and probably shouldn't have been made a Templar in the first place.  My initial post was merely an attack on the common stance that Meredith has no reason for her actions beyond mage hate.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Again just my interpretation but it came across to me that he found it odd for Mages to volunteer assistance in dealing with problems.

There are some practical problems with thinking that mages would have many chances to come forward and offer help to the templars in rounding up, say, the blood mages. Mages locked away within the Circle aren't in the know about what exactly happens in the outside world.

 
In fairness when I talk about the mages coming forward and offering assistance I'm really talking about Orsino.  Orsino seems to have a fair grasp of what's going on and he could come forward and offer assistance on behalf of the mages (representing the mages and their concerns to the Knight Commander kind of being his job).

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Templars have to be the source of that information; since it's they who'd probably come to know first about any apostates or blood mages; Circle mages even if they get to know would probably do so if the templars inform them or they'd have to rely on hearsay and rumors. So I actually find it odd that Kerras would say something like that, unless he was probably realizing his own preconceptions and prejudices.

Also a possibility.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Involved no but as I pointed out their inaction, their decision to not even try to do anything for so long (Orsino in Year 7 is the only indication of mages trying to reign in their own), can be taken as silent approval of mages very much like Anders.

I personally think you're not cutting enough slack for the mages.

 
I gave the mages plenty of slack in Acts 1 and 2, they hung themselves with it.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

No but he does claim to speak for all mages. He's decided that the Circle's gone on too long, he's decided that Orsino hasn't been doing his bit, and he's decided to push this thing to violence.

I still disagree. Commiting an action and saying that Anders speaks for all mages isn't the same thing as saying that he had accomplices in the Circle or among other mages or that the other mages were siliently approving.

 
Again if the moderates do not speak or act against the extremists they are declaring their approval.  I get that the mages don't really have any means of acting against mages like Tarohne, but every time one of them popped up Orsino should have been in the Hightown square denouncing every last one of them and declaring for all to hear that the Circle does not condone or support their actions and will gladly assist the Templars in finding those still at large (Grace if she's let go for example) and dealing with the aftermath (attempting to sort out possessed from non-possessed recruits after Tarohne).

His grand display against Meredith in Act 3 should have been the latest of many such appearances by the First Enchanter.  If Bioware wants to inform us later that there were such demonstrations then fine, it's just another casualty of DA2 being rushed out that we never hear about them in game.

[EmperorSahlertz]

General User wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The only reason the Templars left her, was because she was still unwilling, even after the mages actually rebelled, to crack down on them. Justinia is or at least was, the mages best hope of changing things. Now they've brought war to the world, and only confirmed the fears of all the commoners out there.

"Whoa, whoa, whoa!   That's Anders who did that!  Anders!  Most of us mages are good, decent Andrastians, who are loyal to the Crown, and just want to live our lives in peace and with just a modicum of respect!  Don't go lumping all of us in with that nutjob!"

- is what I would say to that if I were a mage.  How much good would it do... who can say?  It's worth a shot though.

Sadly, when all the mages voted to actually rebel, they all get to be genralized. Anders could have been shown as an isolated case, and be used as proof that the system needed to change (since it bred terrorists like Anders). Yet, even that oppertunity the mages chose to waste, in favor of war.

[General User]

Continuing on as the same "average mage" (I will name him... Larry)...

"Hey man I never rebelled!  The Templars went nuts, I just didn't want to get killed!  Anyone who says they wouldn't have done the same is a liar. Can't we work something out?"

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 03:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

General User wrote...

Continuing on as the same "average mage" (I will name him... Larry)...

"Hey man I never rebelled!  The Templars went nuts, I just didn't want to get killed!  Anyone who says they wouldn't have done the same is a liar. Can't we work something out?"

You realize that the Templars only "went nuts" after the mages rebelled, right?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 01 février 2012 - 03:26 .

[General User]

Larry's got something to say to that:

"I never rebelled! Cannot emphasis that enough. I don't know what you and Hawke saw, but here's what happened to me: I was in my cell in the Gallows when Meredith comes in with a dozen Templars saying she's gonna search the tower.  The First Enchanter goes to talk to her and basically tells her to get stuffed.  Well... that didn't go over so well.  They argue for a while (it gets pretty heated) and they all go storming off to the boats, Orsino said about going to see the Grand Cleric.

"Now I knew I wasn't going to get much sleep that night, but I had no freakin' idea, because the next thing I knew there was a giant boom from across the bay and half of Kirkwall is on fire.  I didn't even know what in the Void was going on when the Champion shows up in the courtyard talking about the Rite of Annulment.  And things just got worse from there.   The Templar's show up and start killin' everyone, mages I'd known for years start summoning demons, fire and murder. It was hell, man.  The Champion's blade and the Maker's Grace are all that kept me alive.

"So come on!  We can still come to some sort of deal, can't we?"

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 03:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I am not talking about what happened in Kirkwall, I am talking about the global situation. All the fraternities voted, and decided to rebel. The Divine, despite the mages rebellion, was still unwilling to crack down on the mages. Unhappy with this, the Templars decided to break free from Chantry control, to cull the mages on their own.

[General User]

How do you imagine the Templars in the other Circles reacted to the events in Kirkwall?

I imagine that more than one of the subsequent Circle rebellions was justified. With mages "rebelling" for their own safety specifically to prevent, or maybe even because of, the local Templars reacting... over-zealously. And it just kept on snowballing from there.

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 04:13 .

[Xilizhra]

I imagine that more than one of the subsequent Circle rebellions was justified.

If by that you mean all of them, sure.\\

The only reason the Templars left her, was because she was still unwilling, even after the mages actually rebelled, to crack down on them. Justinia is or at least was, the mages best hope of changing things. Now they've brought war to the world, and only confirmed the fears of all the commoners out there.

This is rather stupid. It was the templars who declared war, as Justinia apparently didn't want to force the mages back into servitude.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I am not talking about what happened in Kirkwall, I am talking about the global situation. All the fraternities voted, and decided to rebel. The Divine, despite the mages rebellion, was still unwilling to crack down on the mages. Unhappy with this, the Templars decided to break free from Chantry control, to cull the mages on their own.

You say "unwilling to crack down" as if that was a bad thing.  Why should she crack down on innocent people who are being held prisoner because of an accident of birth?

And then you say "cull the mages" as though that was some necessary thing that the Templars had to take care of on their own, as the Divine wasn't backing them up.  Why should the mages be culled?  Because they won't bend the knee to oppressors any more?

I see no moral imperative for the mages to follow rules set on them by the Templars.  The most good they can do is to try to win freedom for future generations.

[MichaelFinnegan]

DPSSOC wrote...

Again no argument Meredith was terrible at her job and probably shouldn't have been made a Templar in the first place.  My initial post was merely an attack on the common stance that Meredith has no reason for her actions beyond mage hate.

I guess that is more or less what I believe also.

In fairness when I talk about the mages coming forward and offering assistance I'm really talking about Orsino.  Orsino seems to have a fair grasp of what's going on and he could come forward and offer assistance on behalf of the mages (representing the mages and their concerns to the Knight Commander kind of being his job).

Yeah, sure. Orsino could've approached the Knight Commander and said, "Well, I hear a lot of blood mages are lurking about, so, you know, some of us are willing to help you guys round them up. Give me a ring if you want us to help." Now the question is what reason is there to believe it didn't happen and the Knight Commander simply refused to take his help? Surely the point is that such things didn't happen frequently enough (I'll get to what I mean by this below)? In any case, I consider this a failure on the part DA2, to accurately depict the very many mentalities possible for mages (they are people, after all, with as much of courage or fear or flaws, just like anybody else). We see Rhys filling that role to an extent in Asunder, but it's almost as if someone forgot to depict such instances in DA2. It's almost as if the focus was so much on the negative aspects of mages that some of the positive ones got smothered in the process.

I gave the mages plenty of slack in Acts 1 and 2, they hung themselves with it.

Coming back to the point I made above, we do see something during Act 2 that doesn't happen anytime else (as far as I remember) in the game. It's the getting together of the Circle mages and templars, in their fully legal sense, to combat the qunari. Orsino is proactive - he comes up with a strategy to distract the qunari guarding the gates of the Viscount's Keep, whereas Meredith proposes to rush them. It's really sad for me that such moments weren't depicted more often in the game. To have the rebellion at Kirkwall happen convincingly despite more frequent "legal" allegiances of mages and templars, and to show all of that to the PC - that would've been one heck of a story.

Again if the moderates do not speak or act against the extremists they are declaring their approval.  I get that the mages don't really have any means of acting against mages like Tarohne, but every time one of them popped up Orsino should have been in the Hightown square denouncing every last one of them and declaring for all to hear that the Circle does not condone or support their actions and will gladly assist the Templars in finding those still at large (Grace if she's let go for example) and dealing with the aftermath (attempting to sort out possessed from non-possessed recruits after Tarohne).

I think we differ in our viewpoints here. I look for some kind of correlation between one mage and the other - there is no reason as far as I see to bundle them all into some sort of common pool and hold any mage responsible for the action of another mage - it's just asking for too much. The Circle mages needn't hold any kind of responsibility to the apostates, so the actions of the latter need not incriminate the former. But then again that is perhaps just too logical of an argument for a setting like DA. So perhaps the Circle mages really needed to go all out to "prove" their innocence - which is what I think you're asking, and I honestly think it's a bit too much.

It's another thing though to say that Orsino could've attempted to mitigate the situation, despite the many failings of Meredith and the templars - that's an entirely different argument.

His grand display against Meredith in Act 3 should have been the latest of many such appearances by the First Enchanter.  If Bioware wants to inform us later that there were such demonstrations then fine, it's just another casualty of DA2 being rushed out that we never hear about them in game.

I think with this we somewhat agree. Not public demonstrations, perhaps, but private offers of help from Orsino to Meredith, knowing how much it would've helped the standing of the Circle mages, keeping the Grand Cleric and the Divine in the CC (I remember a perfectly fine mail service available to the Champion, so why not to the others? ).

[MichaelFinnegan]

General User wrote...

Larry's got something to say to that:

"I never rebelled! Cannot emphasis that enough. I don't know what you and Hawke saw, but here's what happened to me: I was in my cell in the Gallows when Meredith comes in with a dozen Templars saying she's gonna search the tower.  The First Enchanter goes to talk to her and basically tells her to get stuffed.  Well... that didn't go over so well.  They argue for a while (it gets pretty heated) and they all go storming off to the boats, Orsino said about going to see the Grand Cleric.

"Now I knew I wasn't going to get much sleep that night, but I had no freakin' idea, because the next thing I knew there was a giant boom from across the bay and half of Kirkwall is on fire.  I didn't even know what in the Void was going on when the Champion shows up in the courtyard talking about the Rite of Annulment.  And things just got worse from there.   The Templar's show up and start killin' everyone, mages I'd known for years start summoning demons, fire and murder. It was hell, man.  The Champion's blade and the Maker's Grace are all that kept me alive.

"So come on!  We can still come to some sort of deal, can't we?"

I think that would've been a good story concept to enter into the Asunder Creative Writing Challenge: the perspective from a Circle mage who wanted nothing to do with any of it, but was nevertheless caught up in all the general mayhem. I suspect not many would've thought along those lines.

[Ivucci]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

General User wrote...

Larry's got something to say to that:

"I never rebelled! Cannot emphasis that enough. I don't know what you and Hawke saw, but here's what happened to me: I was in my cell in the Gallows when Meredith comes in with a dozen Templars saying she's gonna search the tower.  The First Enchanter goes to talk to her and basically tells her to get stuffed.  Well... that didn't go over so well.  They argue for a while (it gets pretty heated) and they all go storming off to the boats, Orsino said about going to see the Grand Cleric.

"Now I knew I wasn't going to get much sleep that night, but I had no freakin' idea, because the next thing I knew there was a giant boom from across the bay and half of Kirkwall is on fire.  I didn't even know what in the Void was going on when the Champion shows up in the courtyard talking about the Rite of Annulment.  And things just got worse from there.   The Templar's show up and start killin' everyone, mages I'd known for years start summoning demons, fire and murder. It was hell, man.  The Champion's blade and the Maker's Grace are all that kept me alive.

"So come on!  We can still come to some sort of deal, can't we?"

I think that would've been a good story concept to enter into the Asunder Creative Writing Challenge: the perspective from a Circle mage who wanted nothing to do with any of it, but was nevertheless caught up in all the general mayhem. I suspect not many would've thought along those lines.

This is certainly a valid perspective that many would probably adopt in such a situation.

The problem I have with it is that once things reach certain critical stage when it is absolutely clear that something has to be done, there is no such thing as staying neutral and asking to be left out of it. When there is a need to change the way the society works, because certain group is being deprived of their basic rights, when the whole country is aflame - symbolically or not, trying to stay out of it just because I don't mind living my miserable life closed in the tower, is worth of no respect.

"Come on, we can work something out" is really coming *very* late to the party.

The mage problem is a problem of the whole society, and is in no way Anders' personal cause, whether he's a nutcase or not. Any woman pregnant with a child might wake up to the reality that she gave birth to a mage child, who - in spite of being a mentally and physically healthy kid - will be taken away, possibly killed, emotionally deprived to the point when s/he will no longer be able to form normal relationships, denied her/his freedom, made tranquil, whatever.

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 février 2012 - 07:11 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only reason the Templars left her, was because she was still unwilling, even after the mages actually rebelled, to crack down on them. Justinia is or at least was, the mages best hope of changing things. Now they've brought war to the world, and only confirmed the fears of all the commoners out there.

This is rather stupid. It was the templars who declared war, as Justinia apparently didn't want to force the mages back into servitude.

Hard to say who started the war. It was the mages that framed the events that forced the Templars' hand (to follow their own ideal).

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I am not talking about what happened in Kirkwall, I am talking about the global situation. All the fraternities voted, and decided to rebel. The Divine, despite the mages rebellion, was still unwilling to crack down on the mages. Unhappy with this, the Templars decided to break free from Chantry control, to cull the mages on their own.

You say "unwilling to crack down" as if that was a bad thing.  Why should she crack down on innocent people who are being held prisoner because of an accident of birth?

And then you say "cull the mages" as though that was some necessary thing that the Templars had to take care of on their own, as the Divine wasn't backing them up.  Why should the mages be culled?  Because they won't bend the knee to oppressors any more?

I see no moral imperative for the mages to follow rules set on them by the Templars.  The most good they can do is to try to win freedom for future generations.

You have to understand that the Templars follow their ideal of control, just as feverently as the mages now follow their ideal of freedom. As misguided as either may be, you have to respect that both will follow their ideals, since you can't expect either to back down on them. 

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 01 février 2012 - 07:49 .

[Ivucci]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You have to understand that the Templars follow their ideal of control, just as feverently as the mages now follow their ideal of freedom. As misguided as either may be, you have to respect that both will follow their ideals, since you can't expect either to back down on them. 

I actually think that these two things are not mutually exclusive. It's all about how we define freedom.

Even we, people of the civilized democracies of the 21st century, do not possess an unlimited freedom. We all have been thrown into various variants of restricted freedoms, as we have to respect the law, complete mandatory school education, pay social insurance and whatnot, and none of us is free to do whatever we want.

Mages shouldn't ask for more than that and will have to accept some form of "restricted" freedom, just like Templars will have to agree not to abuse their position. Both sides should also be reasonable enough to know that occasional incidents might happen as there are psychopaths everywhere, both among the mages and templars.

I just am of the opinion that it's impossible to reach that point without some major reset and redefining from the scratch.

[CrimsonZephyr]

It's not so much that mages have their freedoms restricted, but that they do not benefit from these restrictions. For example, murder is, generally speaking, illegal, but no one in their right mind would want laws against it to be ill-enforced or non-existent, even though this would mean more freedom, because they could end up being murdered by lunatics taking advantage of the fact that there is no incentive not to. The mages are restricted in their magic, but in their efforts to control blood magic and demon summonings, they restrict more freedoms: freedom to have a family, freedom to freely associate in politics, to own property, and freedom to the sanctity of their own bodies. Mages, in short, do not benefit at all from this arrangement, as the restriction on blood magic is not simply depriving them of that dubious freedom, but also many essential ones. Mages would likely benefit from laws being enforced against blood magic, but with their other freedoms intact.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 01 février 2012 - 09:14 .

[Ivucci]

Agreed. The restrictions should have two functions: that you do not become a burden to the society, and yet you can still contribute to the society and function as its valid member. In the case of mages and in the current state of things, #1 is enforced to the point of presumtion of guilt, while #2 is being ignored.