2008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ivucci wrote...

Agreed. The restrictions should have two functions: that you do not become a burden to the society, and yet you can still contribute to the society and function as its valid member. In the case of mages and in the current state of things, #1 is enforced to the point of presumtion of guilt, while #2 is being ignored.

#1 Mages will always be in danger of possession, and precautions must be made. "Freedom" in the same manner as a peasant (which by itself is bull, since peasants aren't free either), is simply not a possibility. Never mind that Mages in their Circles have better living conditions than 90% of Thedas...

#2 Is most certainly not being ignored. Mages ARE allowed to assist in society. Mages assist as healers and craftsmen for instance.

[dragonflight288]

#2 Is most certainly not being ignored. Mages ARE allowed to assist in society. Mages assist as healers and craftsmen for instance.

Only when a powerful noble pays the Circle and the Templars money to have a healer around. Or if the mage in question, through some exceptional events (like Wilhelm fighting Orlias with Ferelden in Origins) is allowed special privileges to leave the Tower. But roughly 99% of the mages will be denied those opportunities because they are not tranquil and no longer considered dangerous. They would be confined to the Tower.

Hard to help as a healer to your country or as a soldier for your king when your locked in a tower your whole life.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

#2 Is most certainly not being ignored. Mages ARE allowed to assist in society. Mages assist as healers and craftsmen for instance.

Only when a powerful noble pays the Circle and the Templars money to have a healer around. Or if the mage in question, through some exceptional events (like Wilhelm fighting Orlias with Ferelden in Origins) is allowed special privileges to leave the Tower. But roughly 99% of the mages will be denied those opportunities because they are not tranquil and no longer considered dangerous. They would be confined to the Tower.

Hard to help as a healer to your country or as a soldier for your king when your locked in a tower your whole life.

Or... you know.. They could ask their First Enchanter permission to leave the Tower and assist whereever it was needed. Granted that their First Enchanter permitted it of course.

[Xilizhra]

#1 Mages will always be in danger of possession, and precautions must be made. "Freedom" in the same manner as a peasant (which by itself is bull, since peasants aren't free either), is simply not a possibility. Never mind that Mages in their Circles have better living conditions than 90% of Thedas...

90% of Thedas is complete crap. This is irrelevant.

[TEWR]

Or... you know.. They could ask their First Enchanter permission to leave the Tower and assist whereever it was needed. Granted that their First Enchanter permitted it of course.

To which a Grand Cleric or other Chantry authority would shoot that down in an instant.

"We will not trust any lives to your spells mage!" -- Grand Cleric of Denerim, to Uldred.

It is precisely this attitude that contributed to The Battle for Ostagar being a failure. The rest was due to Loghain.

Yes his strategy would've failed if he had gone through with his proposed plan to Cailan, but that doesn't mean Ostagar was unwinnable itself. It just needed a different strategy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 février 2012 - 02:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

#1 Mages will always be in danger of possession, and precautions must be made. "Freedom" in the same manner as a peasant (which by itself is bull, since peasants aren't free either), is simply not a possibility. Never mind that Mages in their Circles have better living conditions than 90% of Thedas...

90% of Thedas is complete crap. This is irrelevant.

What makes you think that Thedas has a higher percentage of nobility than our world?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Or... you know.. They could ask their First Enchanter permission to leave the Tower and assist whereever it was needed. Granted that their First Enchanter permitted it of course.

To which a Grand Cleric or other Chantry authority would shoot that down in an instant.

"We will not trust any lives to your spells mage!" -- Grand Cleric of Denerim, to Uldred.

It is precisely this attitude that contributed to The Battle for Ostagar being a failure. The rest was due to Loghain.

Yes his strategy would've failed if he had gone through with his proposed plan to Cailan, but that doesn't mean Ostagar was unwinnable itself. It just needed a different strategy.

You of course realize that Uldred was outside the tower, and so he must have gained permission to leave the tower.... Right?
Not to mention that Uldred was already in cahoots with Loghain at the time, so the Grand Cleric's denial of his proposed solution actually helped expose Loghain's treachery.
Furthermore you have no guarentee that more magic would've helped at Ostagar. It could also have made it all so much worse.

[Xilizhra]

What makes you think that Thedas has a higher percentage of nobility than our world?

What?
Also, I know that Orlesian commoners share the issue with mages that they can be raped on a whim, but that's not the issue for all nations, certainly not Ferelden.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Ivucci wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think that would've been a good story concept to enter into the Asunder Creative Writing Challenge: the perspective from a Circle mage who wanted nothing to do with any of it, but was nevertheless caught up in all the general mayhem. I suspect not many would've thought along those lines.

This is certainly a valid perspective that many would probably adopt in such a situation.

Indeed they might. But my thoughts were more about the storytelling potential, from say the perspective of a new apprentice, a fledgling who'd been very recently brought to the Circle, and is being forced to survive through the terrible events of the day.

The problem I have with it is that once things reach certain critical stage when it is absolutely clear that something has to be done, there is no such thing as staying neutral and asking to be left out of it.

And how does one really know when such a "critical stage" has been reached? In any case, one could still attempt self-defense or try to escape, which might be open as options. Joining either side could be a practical advantage, to boost one's immediate chances of survival - it need not have any more significance attached to it.

When there is a need to change the way the society works, because certain group is being deprived of their basic rights, when the whole country is aflame - symbolically or not, trying to stay out of it just because I don't mind living my miserable life closed in the tower, is worth of no respect.

Those are merely your perspectives and I see no compelling reasons that others need to accept it. I think at a fundamental level it's not a question about honor or respect. I'm willing to bet that in a majority of cases it's more about merely surviving. I'm also willing to bet that, however miserable one's current state of existence might be, people find a will to survive, to get through the day, if nothing else.

"Come on, we can work something out" is really coming *very* late to the party.

I don't look at it as coming to any kind of party - because at the end of it all one might wake up from is merely a hangover. It's about laying the foundations for a future so that one not only lives long enough to get to be in it, but also builds a world that'd be worth living in, and that'd be in ways better than the one that exists. Now that is a more worthwhile goal for me, rather than yielding to someone's notions of a freedom movement. I've argued before that the word "freedom" is not a rigidly defined term - and with an ill-conceived attempts to go get it one might very well end up with less of it than one started off with.

The mage problem is a problem of the whole society, and is in no way Anders' personal cause, whether he's a nutcase or not. Any woman pregnant with a child might wake up to the reality that she gave birth to a mage child, who - in spite of being a mentally and physically healthy kid - will be taken away, possibly killed, emotionally deprived to the point when s/he will no longer be able to form normal relationships, denied her/his freedom, made tranquil, whatever.

That'd be one way of looking at it, sure, and it's very much valid because mages suffer such atrocities under the current system. But there is a whole other side to the story: there are now a few hundred mages stuck at Andoral's Reach. What is critically imporant for me now is how any of them are going to survive. It's all very well and good to glorify the concept of freedom, to blow up things and say that's how one starts the movement. But what is the next course of action? Does Anders have the answers? Or does Adrian or Fiona? None of them has any sort of roadmap that looks at more than 10 minutes in front of them, as far as I could tell. They are all stuck at Andoral's Reach waiting at the moment for whatever fate that awaits them - either to face any army of templars, or to see themseves starve to death, or to hope they get lucky somehow.

And what if they don't get lucky? Now consider the prospects of failure, and how costly that will prove in the longer run. Someone like the Lord Seeker is going to clamp down harder, as he's made it clear in his letter to the Divine. What about the child now who will be forcibly taken to a newly "repurposed" Circle system? I don't know about you, but I shudder at the prospect.

[TEWR]

You of course realize that Uldred was outside the tower, and so he must have gained permission to leave the tower.... Right?
Not to mention that Uldred was already in cahoots with Loghain at the time, so the Grand Cleric's denial of his proposed solution actually helped expose Loghain's treachery.
Furthermore you have no guarentee that more magic would've helped at Ostagar. It could also have made it all so much worse.

What Uldred did and didn't do, who he had aligned with, and the Grand Cleric's lucky move are irrelevant to the point I was making. Your assertion was that they could help the public by asking for permission to do so.

He got permission to fight in the battle. But when he tries to propose a better solution to King Cailan as well as Loghain that might help the army of Ferelden -- read: he would be helping the public -- the Grand Cleric shoots it down because he's a mage.

Also, at this point in time I don't think Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain. You're assuming they were in cahoots during the battle, which while possible is not fact. I think they went in cahoots with one another after the battle when Uldred had survived. I think Loghain asked him to talk to the Circle and get him to side with them after the battle.

Which is just as possible -- and also not as factual -- as you assuming they were in cahoots during the battle.

Unless somewhere in-game or on here it was stated that they were in cahoots prior to and during the battle.

finally, more mages would've definitely helped, but that isn't all that I think should've been done. Mages are only a part of how I think Ostagar could've been won.

If any Abominations did unfortunately arise -- and I imagine a fair number would -- I imagine the Darkspawn and the Abominations would duke it out. The Darkspawn kill everything in their paths, and the Abominations probably would want to enslave the Darkspawn themselves. To which, the Darkspawn would just fight.

So really, even if Abominations appeared they would -- for the most part -- be taken care of by the Darkspawn.

And honestly, that would be pretty badass to see. Abominations vs. Darkspawn.

EDIT: Actually, I doubt Uldred volunteered at all to fight in the battle. He's described as a very reclusive yet vocal Libertarian mage in the Circle so I doubt he asked anyone if he could go to Ostagar. He was probably forced to go.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 février 2012 - 05:52 .

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You have to understand that the Templars follow their ideal of control, just as feverently as the mages now follow their ideal of freedom. As misguided as either may be, you have to respect that both will follow their ideals, since you can't expect either to back down on them. 

And you have to understand that I think the Templars and Chantry are wrong.  It is wrong to incarcerate an entire class of people out of fear and a sense of divine superiority.  It is quite possible to be absolutely confident in your right to do something and still be on the wrong side of morality.  I have no doubt the Templars are written to believe in their cause, we are told the Chantry recruits zealots after all.  But what they do is still wrong.

I don't expect the Templars to back down.  That's why I think violence is the only option.  If the book shows us anytihng it is that the Templars have no interest in loosening their death grip on the mages.  If even the Divine can't make progress diplomatically, the mages had no chance.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

#1 Mages will always be in danger of possession, and precautions must be made. "Freedom" in the same manner as a peasant (which by itself is bull, since peasants aren't free either), is simply not a possibility. Never mind that Mages in their Circles have better living conditions than 90% of Thedas...

#2 Is most certainly not being ignored. Mages ARE allowed to assist in society. Mages assist as healers and craftsmen for instance.

#1 Always. is a big word one of the main reasons i oppose the templars is that they allow little magical research. By doing so they have put the common people  in more danger then the mages have. What both Paramond and Quentin proved is that the mages have a poor knowledge about magic. Both have managerd to accomplish something that was considerd impossible before.

#2. I dont see many mages running clinics or shops. they are however manned by tranquil. The chantry would not like it. Mages that help people would completely undermine the chantry's political position.

[Ivucci]

GavrielKay wrote...

I don't expect the Templars to back down.  That's why I think violence is the only option.

It looks a bit disturbing when expressed bluntly, doesn't it, but again this has kinda been my point, too.

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 février 2012 - 06:17 .

[Rifneno]

Ivucci wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I don't expect the Templars to back down.  That's why I think violence is the only option.

It looks a bit disturbing when expressed bluntly, doesn't it, but again this has kinda been my point, too.

Not really.  I can't believe anyone would ever think otherwise.  1,000 across multiple nations this has been going on.  There's no way it went on that long if words could fix it.  People often point to the Martin Luther King analogy and how he nearly eradicated segregation without even holding a weapon.  But that's a faulty analogy, because that's not where we're at here with the mages.  We're about 100 years earlier when the fight wasn't about drinking fountains, it was about not being owned.  And that fight was several years of organized bloodbaths.  Because that's the only way such a massive change can happen.  Civil liberties can happen slowly, freedom is one step process and that one step is almost always submerged in a lake of blood.  This is one of the things in which DA is actually very realistic.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
#1 Mages will always be in danger of possession, and precautions must be made. "Freedom" in the same manner as a peasant (which by itself is bull, since peasants aren't free either), is simply not a possibility. Never mind that Mages in their Circles have better living conditions than 90% of Thedas...

I'd love to see this in gameplay.  We can play out 7 years of mageHawke's life and never randomly have a demon try to possess Hawke.  And a year as the mageWarden with the same problem.  The lore likes to tell us this can happen but we don't really see it.  Desperate mages yes, random mages no.

Desperate mages being easy pickings for demons only makes it that much more ludicrous to keep mages in conditions such as Kirkwall.  Meredith was loony by the end, but still...  it is obvious that desperate people will do desperate things.

I'd guess that 90% of Thedas would not trade their lives for that of a circle mage.

#2 Is most certainly not being ignored. Mages ARE allowed to assist in society. Mages assist as healers and craftsmen for instance.

It always goes back to why they should have to ask permission at all.  They should be free.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...


I'd love to see this in gameplay. We can play out 7 years of mageHawke's life and never randomly have a demon try to possess Hawke. And a year as the mageWarden with the same problem. The lore likes to tell us this can happen but we don't really see it. Desperate mages yes, random mages no.

Desperate mages being easy pickings for demons only makes it that much more ludicrous to keep mages in conditions such as Kirkwall. Meredith was loony by the end, but still... it is obvious that desperate people will do desperate things.

I'd guess that 90% of Thedas would not trade their lives for that of a circle mage.

From a gameplay perspective I can see why Hawke doesn't have to deal with demonic influence. If there's custom content for one class, then they need to make custom content for the others. Same reason that a mage PC isn't any more powerful than a warrior or rogue.

But yeah, that's exactly why this isn't a gray area. It'd be a gray area if the Chantry's system worked and it really did protect people. But it doesn't. Many if not most of the abominations and evil mages we encounter are because of not in spite of the Chantry's authoritarian jackassery. The demons probably LOVE this system that has mages always living in terror and occasionally even being outright forced to confront a demon on the demon's home soil. Remember that demon in the fade during the mage warden's harrowing? "Even if you beat me, the templars will cut you down." "So? At least I'll have a fighting chance at getting out." The Chantry's system only makes things worse.

Such bull... if demonic possession really was such a danger then why isn't Tevinter a barren wasteland inhabited only by roving abominations? It's ruled by blood mages, not demons. Evil men, but men. If magic, even blood magic, was as much a demon bait as the Chantry claims then Tevinter never would've a problem because it would've imploded in a demonic supernova before it became any kind of empire.

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...
From a gameplay perspective I can see why Hawke doesn't have to deal with demonic influence. If there's custom content for one class, then they need to make custom content for the others. Same reason that a mage PC isn't any more powerful than a warrior or rogue.

There is extra content for various abilities in DAO.  The traps and potions quests in Lothering and the Crime Wave ones in Denerim.  Anyway, I'd prefer each class have some little bit of content added than keep hearing about something regarding mages that isn't borne out in game play.

Such bull... if demonic possession really was such a danger then why isn't Tevinter a barren wasteland inhabited only by roving abominations? It's ruled by blood mages, not demons. Evil men, but men. If magic, even blood magic, was as much a demon bait as the Chantry claims then Tevinter never would've a problem because it would've imploded in a demonic supernova before it became any kind of empire.

Indeed.  Not that Tevinter sounds like a pleasant place to be, but they don't seem to have trouble with abominations specifically.  We also don't hear much about Dalish tribes being wiped out by abominations.  It's fine if the writers want us to know that random possession can happen, but it really doesn't seem to be nearly the problem that the Chantry wants everyone to believe.

[General User]

Ivucci wrote...
The problem I have with it is that once things reach certain critical stage when it is absolutely clear that something has to be done, there is no such thing as staying neutral and asking to be left out of it. When there is a need to change the way the society works, because certain group is being deprived of their basic rights, when the whole country is aflame - symbolically or not, trying to stay out of it just because I don't mind living my miserable life closed in the tower, is worth of no respect.

Hey Larry the Mage!  What do you think of that?

"I'm not neutral!  And I damnsure know I'm not going to be left out of anything, not now anyway.  I chose my side; I'm on the 'not-getting-stabbed-AND-not-blowing-up-chantries-side'.  That's the side I'm on.  Is that even a side?  If it's not a side, can we make it a side?  If I start that side will anyone else join me?"

Ivucci wrote...
The mage problem is a problem of the whole society, and is in no way Anders' personal cause, whether he's a nutcase or not. Any woman pregnant with a child might wake up to the reality that she gave birth to a mage child, who - in spite of being a mentally and physically healthy kid - will be taken away, possibly killed, emotionally deprived to the point when s/he will no longer be able to form normal relationships, denied her/his freedom, made tranquil, whatever.

Larry says:  "That's sweet and it's true.  Look I'm not trying to play the victim card here, but I can tell you first-hand that mages get one of the rawest deals of anyone in Thedas, especially with Meredith towards the end there.  She was just plain off her rocker.  And yeah changes need to be made to the Circles and the Order.  But look what's going on now!  We have armies of fanatics tearing through the countryside, Dragons above us, Darkspawn below us, Qunari on one side and Magisters on the other!  We need to come together and fast or we're all cooked!  That's what Larry's about."

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
I think that would've been a good story concept to enter into the Asunder Creative Writing Challenge: the perspective from a Circle mage who wanted nothing to do with any of it, but was nevertheless caught up in all the general mayhem. I suspect not many would've thought along those lines.

Cheers!

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 08:11 .

[Xilizhra]

"I'm not neutral! And I damnsure know I'm not going to be left out of anything, not now anyway. I chose my side; I'm on the 'not-getting-stabbed-AND-not-blowing-up-chantries-side'. That's the side I'm on. Is that even a side? If it's not a side, can we make it a side? If I start that side will anyone else join me?"

That'd be the rebellion's side, if you'd rather not get stabbed.

But look what's going on now! We have armies of fanatics tearing through the countryside, Dragons above us, Darkspawn below us, Qunari on one side and Magisters on the other! We need to come together and fast or we're all cooked! That's what Larry's about."

Good, let's see if the templars suddenly became capable of reason.

[Ivucci]

Well done, Larry. Ever thought of a career in manifesto writing? We could use a good manifesto or two, it might give you some sense of purpose, and an occasional templar's heart might be softened!

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 février 2012 - 09:01 .

[General User]

I starting to think Larry might like his own account... I'm working on it.  In the meantime I'll just use quotes...

Xilizhra wrote...
That'd be the rebellion's side, if you'd rather not get stabbed.

"It's a point in their favor.  But unless the Rebellion has something else to offer besides 'hey we won't stab you just for showing up", I think I'll pass.  Not saying 'no' at all, I got a lot friends who went into the Rebellion right off the bat, just that I wantt to know what the Rebellion is all about before I sign up.  Basically: Who are you?  What are you trying to achieve?  And how do you intend to go about it?

Xilizhra wrote...
Good, let's see if the templars suddenly became capable of reason.

"The Templars ain't exactly the only game in town.  If you catch my drift."

Ivucci wrote...
Well done, Larry. Ever thought of a career in manifesto writing? We could use a good manifesto or two, it might give you some sense of purpose, and an occasional templar's heart might be softened!

"I minored in Manifesto Writing!  Actually, I was a Healer (still am I guess).  We used to go out to Kirkwall on clinics with the Sisters of Mercy, but Meredith shut that down.  The Templars weren't all bad, some of them were downright noble."

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 09:29 .

[Xilizhra]

"It's a point in their favor. But unless the Rebellion has something else to offer besides 'hey we won't stab you just for showing up", I think I'll pass. Not saying 'no' at all, I got a lot friends who went into the Rebellion right off the bat, just that I wantt to know what the Rebellion is all about before I sign up. Basically: Who are you? What are you trying to achieve? And how do you intend to go about it?

The last part is unanswerable until we see the third game and know more about the current political climate. But for the other two, we're those mages who no longer want to be imprisoned by the Chantry, and our goal is a system in which mages can live independently with its own incentives to prevent them from terrorizing the populace.

"The Templars ain't exactly the only game in town. If you catch my drift."

Well, you could defect to Tevinter if you wanted to, I suppose.

[dragonflight288]

You know...I really like Larry the mage. Gives a nice perspective from the non-hero just the mage caught in the crossfire. Keep writing manifestos Larry.

Thorin Aeducan will invest money in the printing supplies.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
The last part is unanswerable until we see the third game and know more about the current political climate. But for the other two, we're those mages who no longer want to be imprisoned by the Chantry, and our goal is a system in which mages can live independently with its own incentives to prevent them from terrorizing the populace.

"I never terrorized anyone!   We all want a world of sunshine and candy, but I don't see it happening anytime soon, and definitely not without a plan.  You must have some idea of at least how you personally would like to see it come about."

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, you could defect to Tevinter if you wanted to, I suppose.

"Bloodmages.  Half of whom would be more than happy to bleed me dry so they can fry each other all the quicker.  I'm gonna call that Plan X.  Play Y is the Qunari and Plan Z is the Darkspawn.  Besides, I'm not a heretic.  I'm not even an apostate really.  I didn't have a choice but to leave the Circle, it was that or be killed.

"I'm just sayin' there has to be someone in Thedas who could use the services of a mage who isn't some combination of crazy and evil.  What about the Crown of Ferelden?  Or the Dwarves?  Mercenary bands have hired apostate mages for years, there have to be a few out there that aren't just a bunch of seedy bandits."

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 10:39 .

[dragonflight288]

Thorin: Larry is more than free to come serve the crown of Orzammar. We could use all the help we can get with fighting the darkspawn. We're the front lines against that evil. The surfacers can go stuff themselves with their own ludicrous lack of logic for magic.

Fight for us dwarves, we'll allow you lyrium and research space. Turn into an abomination and we'll kill you. We're resistant to magic anyway. Avoid demons and fight with us, you'll be free to live your life however you wish.

Just don't try and convert us to the Chantry.

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Thorin: Larry is more than free to come serve the crown of Orzammar. We could use all the help we can get with fighting the darkspawn. We're the front lines against that evil. The surfacers can go stuff themselves with their own ludicrous lack of logic for magic.

Fight for us dwarves, we'll allow you lyrium and research space. Turn into an abomination and we'll kill you. We're resistant to magic anyway. Avoid demons and fight with us, you'll be free to live your life however you wish.

Just don't try and convert us to the Chantry.

Larry says:

"Thank you Messere, that is a most kind and generous offer. I can hold my own when I have to, but my specialty is healing magic.  I also brew potions.

"To tell the truth, Orzammar is looking better and better every day.  And if push comes to shove, I probably will try to make for the City of the Dwarves.  It's just that, well... I'm a Marcher.  I was born in Kirkwall, for better or worse it's my home and the people there are my people.  Now my city and my people are tearing themselves apart, and the rest of the world right along with them.  I just don't think I could live with myself if I left now without at least trying to make things better.

"Of course, the day may come when I just don't have any choice.  Hopefully on that day Orzammar will still welcome one Larrician (Larry) Baramol.  Don't worry I'm a great house guest.  Just ask the Templars, when I was in the Circle they didn't want me to ever leave!"

Modifié par General User, 01 février 2012 - 11:33 .