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[Sons of Horus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Thorin: Larry is more than free to come serve the crown of Orzammar. We could use all the help we can get with fighting the darkspawn. We're the front lines against that evil. The surfacers can go stuff themselves with their own ludicrous lack of logic for magic.

Fight for us dwarves, we'll allow you lyrium and research space. Turn into an abomination and we'll kill you. We're resistant to magic anyway. Avoid demons and fight with us, you'll be free to live your life however you wish.

Just don't try and convert us to the Chantry.

You sure King Bhelen Aeducan or King Pyral Harrowmont would let him in at this time ? I thought Orzammar wanted to be neutral and if there is an assembly meeting it could take quite a wile. Poor Steward Bandelor.

[Rifneno]

When people are going to Orzammar for equality, you know something has done catastrophically wrong. 

[dragonflight288]

The politicians can debate. Our soldiers could use a good healer on the front lines. And Dagna's research has brought a lot of magical interest to Orzammar, not to mention the ability to get lyrium without going through the Chantry. We have it at its source.

While politicians debate, I'll just let whichever mage wishes to seek asylum in Orzammar into my own unit. I'm a Commander of Orzammar anyway. The other lords don't like it they can stuff it. The politics takes forever anyway.

[RazorrX]

I believe that one of the DA:O 'endings' had an exalted march being called upon Orzammar due to them giving refuge to apostates. I doubt that Orz would want to have to deal with a march as well as the darkspawn.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
#1 Mages will always be in danger of possession, and precautions must be made. "Freedom" in the same manner as a peasant (which by itself is bull, since peasants aren't free either), is simply not a possibility. Never mind that Mages in their Circles have better living conditions than 90% of Thedas...

I'd guess that 90% of Thedas would not trade their lives for that of a circle mage.

If you ever had to starve for several days, or worse, watch your children starve and be powerless to help them. You would probably jump at the option to send them to a place where you knew they would be fed and taken care of, even if it meant you wouldn't be able to see them anymore. Just look at what is happening in Greece these days.

Now I know some of you are probably gonna go on the "Oh, but then my children would be RAPED, tangent. But then I'd ask you to provide evidence that it is a widespread problem across all Circles, or just Kirkwall, and then ask you if you'd rather your child starve to death?

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
#1 Mages will always be in danger of possession, and precautions must be made. "Freedom" in the same manner as a peasant (which by itself is bull, since peasants aren't free either), is simply not a possibility. Never mind that Mages in their Circles have better living conditions than 90% of Thedas...

I'd guess that 90% of Thedas would not trade their lives for that of a circle mage.

If you ever had to starve for several days, or worse, watch your children starve and be powerless to help them. You would probably jump at the option to send them to a place where you knew they would be fed and taken care of, even if it meant you wouldn't be able to see them anymore. Just look at what is happening in Greece these days.

Now I know some of you are probably gonna go on the "Oh, but then my children would be RAPED, tangent. But then I'd ask you to provide evidence that it is a widespread problem across all Circles, or just Kirkwall, and then ask you if you'd rather your child starve to death?

Oh I suppose some might make the same deal the mages did 900 years ago.  Especially if they were ignorant of what it would be really like.

But saying that something is better than starving to death isn't exactly high praise.

[dragonflight288]

I believe that one of the DA:O 'endings' had an exalted march being called upon Orzammar due to them giving refuge to apostates. I doubt that Orz would want to have to deal with a march as well as the darkspawn.

The epilogue is about how it's rumored the Chantry is considering an exalted march against Orzammar, but nothing doing there.

The big problem between then and now is pretty simple. The Chantry no longer has an army. The thought that they could attack Orzammar with what they have now is ludicrous at best. And if the Templars want to attack Orzammar, then I suppose they want to be on the front lines of the darkspawn.

[General User]

Besides iirc, the tension between Orzammar and the Chantry was over the whole "Brother Burkel Incident", not mages.

[dragonflight288]

No, it's also on the mages. It mentions the mages and the Orzammar Circle as being the reason if you don't do the Brother Burkel quest.

[General User]

hmm... sounds to me like the Chantry was looking to pick a fight with Orzammar and jumped on the first excuse that came along. Or am I reading too much into that?

[dragonflight288]

I don't think you are. That sounds like the Chantry. We dwarves don't have any gods at all. We venerate our ancestors who had lived. We aspire to live up to their examples as they were considered the best of us.

The Chantry, backed by the expansionst empire of Orlais, has a long history of bloodshed and violence against heathens and non-believers.

[Urazz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Nobody in that Chantry was "innocent". The Chantry, and yes, every member of its clergy, is repsonsible for creating the culture of abuse and bigotry that mages have to endure. The Chantry controls the Templars, it is a military power. The fact that Elthina failed to rein in Meredith doesn't make her 'innocent', it makes her incompetent.

I'd have to disagree with that.  Lower ranking parts of the chantry don't have any effect at all in deciding the major choices of templars and mages.  Let's also not forget there were probably civilians in the chantry for prayer as well.  Are they guilty as well?

I agree that Elthina is guilty  through lack of action but killing her by blowing up the chantry and killing alot of people on top of her doesn't help things.

Modifié par Urazz, 02 février 2012 - 05:11 .

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't think you are. That sounds like the Chantry. We dwarves don't have any gods at all. We venerate our ancestors who had lived. We aspire to live up to their examples as they were considered the best of us.

The Chantry, backed by the expansionst empire of Orlais, has a long history of bloodshed and violence against heathens and non-believers.

I might guess that Orzammar being the sole source of lyrium has a little something to do with it too.

I'm just sayin', I'm sure the dwarves would love to sell their lyrium to the highest bidder, but the Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade topside. And, while that monopoly makes the Chantry rich, it also makes them dependent on the dwarves. They must resent the hell out of that.

Frankly I'm amazed it's gone as well as it has for as long as it has.

Modifié par General User, 02 février 2012 - 05:13 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think if the Chantry was itching to to war with Orzammar at any point during the 900 years that it could have. And the game would have mentioned any cause of tension if there was more beyond the two incidents described in the epilogue.

Exalted Marches aren't called on any non Andrastian nation on a whim. They have to be perceived as a threat. Orzammar is not an enemy of any human nation. The Dales, Qunari and Tevinter Imperium had either decades of tension or open warfare before The Divine called for Exalted Marches against them.

[MichaelFinnegan]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Good, let's see if the templars suddenly became capable of reason.

"The Templars ain't exactly the only game in town.  If you catch my drift."

Or the only threat, for that matter. Let's look at the situation a bit more closely, shall we? Earlier there were 15 Circles (or so I'm led to believe) spread apart throughout Thedas, where the Circle mages were all distributed. But now all of them are conveniently located at once place, if someone, you know, decided to neutralize them. The qunari come to mind, and they are not only a threat to the Chantry or the templars, they're a threat to even the mages. If the qunari are really clever, they'd wait it out and then make a move; then again, they might lose a great opportunity. I'd mobilize my troops and prepare for a strike, or some kind of infiltration, if I were the qunari.

Ahem, back on topic. Whatever Anders might have shared with Meredith, military strategy doesn't seem to be one of them.

Ivucci wrote...
Well done, Larry. Ever thought of a career in manifesto writing? We could use a good manifesto or two, it might give you some sense of purpose, and an occasional templar's heart might be softened!

"I minored in Manifesto Writing!  Actually, I was a Healer (still am I guess).  We used to go out to Kirkwall on clinics with the Sisters of Mercy, but Meredith shut that down.  The Templars weren't all bad, some of them were downright noble."

Being a mage doesn't mean you've to be "magely" always. So here's a suggestion. Lose the staff and the robe (I mean wear something else). Learn a bit of self-control and then mingle with the general population. Bide your time; it's not as if the templars are gonna come looking for you now - all the phylacteries are gone. Assuming you're not too attached to your "healing" profession... or to writing manifestos...

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 02 février 2012 - 06:25 .

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

From a gameplay perspective I can see why Hawke doesn't have to deal with demonic influence. If there's custom content for one class, then they need to make custom content for the others. Same reason that a mage PC isn't any more powerful than a warrior or rogue.

Not really. All that really needed to be done was have the same custom content available for non-mage Hawkes as well, with the reasoning being that his mage-blood from both sides of the family has given him a greater awareness in the Fade then most non-mages.

And as a result, demons are attracted to him just as much as they are to mages.

Which would make non-mage Hawkes a very unique case, and mage Hawkes happen to be indicative of what Mages go through, however often they do in fact go through it.

But yeah, that's exactly why this isn't a gray area. It'd be a gray area if the Chantry's system worked and it really did protect people. But it doesn't. Many if not most of the abominations and evil mages we encounter are because of not in spite of the Chantry's authoritarian jackassery. The demons probably LOVE this system that has mages always living in terror and occasionally even being outright forced to confront a demon on the demon's home soil. Remember that demon in the fade during the mage warden's harrowing? "Even if you beat me, the templars will cut you down." "So? At least I'll have a fighting chance at getting out." The Chantry's system only makes things worse.

Such bull... if demonic possession really was such a danger then why isn't Tevinter a barren wasteland inhabited only by roving abominations? It's ruled by blood mages, not demons. Evil men, but men. If magic, even blood magic, was as much a demon bait as the Chantry claims then Tevinter never would've a problem because it would've imploded in a demonic supernova before it became any kind of empire.

Indeed. It's my belief that blood magic only leads to demonic possession if you let your guard down due to sheer arrogance at the power they think they wield in their hands.

• Mage: I'm so powerful! I can do anything! No one can stop me.... me.... me.....GRAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
  
• *bursts into flames. Flames subside.*
  
• Mage: I'm an Abomination! I'm invincible!
  
• Knight: You're a looney.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 06:24 .

[dragonflight288]

David Gaider said in order to become an abomination, it is absolutely required to make a deal with a demon. Being a blood mage may or may not increase demonic attention, but you still have to look a demon in the eye and say yes to some deal or another.

Meaning that girl in Act 1 who bursts into flames as an abomination was likely an abomination before they threatened to cut off her hands. A clever demon like a Pride or Desire demon wouldn't broadcast their presence if it meant immediate extermination.

Of course, Gaider also said a mage may make a deal with a demon and not be entirely aware of it. Kind of like how Mouse tries to influence mage Warden. Tried to trick him/her into letting him through to find a body of his own, by using the Rage Demon as a scape-goat for the demon meant to be faced.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She ask for help from anybody before she becomes possessed. It is reasonable to assume that the demon offered its help and she accepted, before thinking.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

Oh I suppose some might make the same deal the mages did 900 years ago.  Especially if they were ignorant of what it would be really like.

But saying that something is better than starving to death isn't exactly high praise.

Do YOU have any idea what it is like? Or do you just have an idea of what it is like? You try hard and make it sound like the mages of all Circles everywhere are leading a miserable existance, even when many mages claim that they like it in the Circles. When mages like Wynne, Irving and Bethany claim that the Circles aren't as bad as some Libertarians and Apostates claim, and admits to it neccesity, well let's just say I'm quicker to trust their word, than the words of abominations and madmen... But hey, that MAY just be me.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She ask for help from anybody before she becomes possessed. It is reasonable to assume that the demon offered its help and she accepted, before thinking.

Yea, I can see that.

That said, blame can be laid at the Templars' feet as well. If they hadn't made her so afraid of what they might do, if they hadn't been tyrants to her and her fellow mages, if they weren't colossal pricks, then she might not have asked Samson to help her escape. And then she wouldn't have been caught up in what happened.

I have to wonder, Samson and Thrask seemed to be friends. At least, Samson says Thrask is an old friend. If so, did Samson know Olivia was Thrask's daughter? And if he did, why didn't he try and make sure she actually got out safely?

[EmperorSahlertz]

What? Weren't she the daughter of Thrask? Didn't he keep her amgical talent secret, and out of the Circle, so he wouldn't lose face to the other Templars?

[TEWR]

What? Weren't she the daughter of Thrask? Didn't he keep her amgical talent secret, and out of the Circle, so he wouldn't lose face to the other Templars?

He did keep their relationship a secret, but I'm just wondering if Samson and Thrask were friendly enough that maybe Thrask could've confided that secret to Samson and trusted him to keep it to himself. Samson is a fairly pro-mage person.

Sort of a "If I can't watch over her, can you watch over her for me?" type of deal.

EDIT: No, she was a part of the Circle I think, but the relationship was what was secret methinks.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 10:28 .

[Goneaviking]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Oh I suppose some might make the same deal the mages did 900 years ago.  Especially if they were ignorant of what it would be really like.

But saying that something is better than starving to death isn't exactly high praise.

Do YOU have any idea what it is like? Or do you just have an idea of what it is like? You try hard and make it sound like the mages of all Circles everywhere are leading a miserable existance, even when many mages claim that they like it in the Circles. When mages like Wynne, Irving and Bethany claim that the Circles aren't as bad as some Libertarians and Apostates claim, and admits to it neccesity, well let's just say I'm quicker to trust their word, than the words of abominations and madmen... But hey, that MAY just be me.

Methinks DA2 wouldn't have kicked off an worldwide mage rebellion if it'd been milk and honey in those mage towers. Takes a whole lot of rage to spark that kind of uprising, and usually it's got to have been building up for a long time.

Wynne and (probably) Irving essentially grew up in he circle, you can bet they would have been hearing propaganda for all of their lives about how it was all for the best and that the alternative was worse and you should just ignore the mage-hating templars patrolling your halls and don't take it too personally if he's looking forward to killing you when you fail the arbitrary test that's forced upon you regardless of your wishes.

Bethany seems to like it, but then again she's always been pretty sheltered by her family and having a bed and regular meals and being surrounded by people with similar interests probably seems like a step up once she's in the door. Given how bitter she becomes if she joins the Wardens and actually has to get a taste of what Carver and (non-mage) Hawke had volunteered for before Ostagar, it began to seem to me like she was a very pampered little princess.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Goneaviking wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Oh I suppose some might make the same deal the mages did 900 years ago.  Especially if they were ignorant of what it would be really like.

But saying that something is better than starving to death isn't exactly high praise.

Do YOU have any idea what it is like? Or do you just have an idea of what it is like? You try hard and make it sound like the mages of all Circles everywhere are leading a miserable existance, even when many mages claim that they like it in the Circles. When mages like Wynne, Irving and Bethany claim that the Circles aren't as bad as some Libertarians and Apostates claim, and admits to it neccesity, well let's just say I'm quicker to trust their word, than the words of abominations and madmen... But hey, that MAY just be me.

Methinks DA2 wouldn't have kicked off an worldwide mage rebellion if it'd been milk and honey in those mage towers. Takes a whole lot of rage to spark that kind of uprising, and usually it's got to have been building up for a long time.

Wynne and (probably) Irving essentially grew up in he circle, you can bet they would have been hearing propaganda for all of their lives about how it was all for the best and that the alternative was worse and you should just ignore the mage-hating templars patrolling your halls and don't take it too personally if he's looking forward to killing you when you fail the arbitrary test that's forced upon you regardless of your wishes.

Bethany seems to like it, but then again she's always been pretty sheltered by her family and having a bed and regular meals and being surrounded by people with similar interests probably seems like a step up once she's in the door. Given how bitter she becomes if she joins the Wardens and actually has to get a taste of what Carver and (non-mage) Hawke had volunteered for before Ostagar, it began to seem to me like she was a very pampered little princess.

DA2 DIDN'T kick off any rebellion. It increased tensions, but it was the events of Asunder that started the rebellion.

Wynne and Irving both seem to acknowledge the failings and shortcommings of the Circle, but they also both realize that there isn't any viable alternative in the current date of Thedas. And since the Circles allow for Libertarians to speak their minds, I'd wager they've both heard their share of seperatist propaganda aswell.
And Bethany becomes bitter when she joins the Grey Warden because she has a hard time comming to terms with the forever tainted and doomed to an early death part of it. Not because she finds her new job gruesome or anyhting like that. On the other hand, when she joins the Circle, she is for the first time in her life, able to relax and let down her guard (which would be odd, if the Circle is full of dangerous predators, like some of you would have it sound).

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 février 2012 - 11:41 .

[General User]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think if the Chantry was itching to to war with Orzammar at any point during the 900 years that it could have. And the game would have mentioned any cause of tension if there was more beyond the two incidents described in the epilogue.

Exalted Marches aren't called on any non Andrastian nation on a whim. They have to be perceived as a threat. Orzammar is not an enemy of any human nation. The Dales, Qunari and Tevinter Imperium had either decades of tension or open warfare before The Divine called for Exalted Marches against them.

The bolded sentences would seem to contradict.  The cause of the tension between the Chantry and Orzammar is mentioned several times: lyrium.

But I think you actually hit near to what I was originally getting at.  There's tension between the Chantry and Orzammar, embers that could easily be fanned into flame, but haven't for a variey of reasons including:

No one on either side really considered the problems between the two as serious to be worth fighting over before, Especially when the Chantry has had other very serious problems on it's plate over the past 900 years.

And your spot on, Orzammar is not an enemy of any human nation.  The Qunari were a threat to all nations, Tevinter was much the same in alot of ways, even the Exalted March on the Dales amounted to little more than placing a Chantry imprimature on what was essentially an Orlesian conquest.  But if the Chantry really tried to declare an Exalted March on Orzammar they would find their support among the secular rulers of Thedas to range from "tepid" to "non-existent", with outright opposition being a very real possibility.