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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Exalted March on the Dales was not to "allow" or "solidify" an Orlesian conquest. It was to SAVE Orlais. Orlais was getting its ass handed to it by the Dalish, and Val Royaux was even sacked before the Exalted March was called, and only the combined might of the Andrastian nations was enough to fight back the Dalish.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 février 2012 - 01:59 .

[General User]

The Dalish started that war?

[EmperorSahlertz]

General User wrote...

The Dalish started that war?

No one knows who started the war. The most reliable source says that tensions had been brewing between the two nations for quite a while, and frequent border skirmishes simply grew into full fledged war.

[General User]

How about: "The Exalted March on the Dales amounted to little more than placing a Chantry imprimature on what was essentially an Orlesian war."?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Given the events of the war, we can pretty much ascertain that that was not the case. The Chantry did not step in until the Grand Cathedral of Val Royaux itself was threatened.

And while the Dalish had made no attacks on any other Andrastian nation, and thus could be argued as neutral towards them. They did sack the most holy of Chantries, and the headquarters of Thedas' dominant religion, which made it an international war, instead of one between Orlais and the Dales.

Edit: And are you actually quoting yourself as a reliable source of Thedas history? 

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 février 2012 - 02:23 .

[Xilizhra]

Wynne and Irving both seem to acknowledge the failings and shortcommings of the Circle, but they also both realize that there isn't any viable alternative in the current date of Thedas.

Yes, and they're wrong.

On the other hand, when she joins the Circle, she is for the first time in her life, able to relax and let down her guard (which would be odd, if the Circle is full of dangerous predators, like some of you would have it sound).

Oh, it is, but they generally prey on those who are weak, which Bethany isn't; also, I suspect Cullen is personally watching out for her as some type of acknowledgement to Hawke; even then, Bethany mentions in her letter that she still has to stay away from some people.

[General User]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Given the events of the war, we can pretty much ascertain that that was not the case. The Chantry did not step in until the Grand Cathedral of Val Royaux itself was threatened.

And while the Dalish had made no attacks on any other Andrastian nation, and thus could be argued as neutral towards them. They did sack the most holy of Chantries, and the headquarters of Thedas' dominant religion, which made it an international war, instead of one between Orlais and the Dales.

Souns like the Dalish were winnign the war and just went too far.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Edit: And are you actually quoting yourself as a reliable source of Thedas history? 

No, I was proposing an alternate phrasing of a contentious statement and hoping you'd respond in kind.  Thus providing me with a better understanding of this matter and your perception thereof.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

Xilizhra wrote...

Wynne and Irving both seem to acknowledge the failings and shortcommings of the Circle, but they also both realize that there isn't any viable alternative in the current date of Thedas.

Yes, and they're wrong. 

 
And I think you are wrong. Does that make you wrong? Not neccesarily. What I find to be right and wrong, does not neccesarily reflect on others. However, that SOME people are able to find the Circles acceptable, serves as proof that the Circles aren't nearly the living hell some tries to make them appear.

Xilizhra wrote... 

On the other hand, when she joins the Circle, she is for the first time in her life, able to relax and let down her guard (which would be odd, if the Circle is full of dangerous predators, like some of you would have it sound).

Oh, it is, but they generally prey on those who are weak, which Bethany isn't; also, I suspect Cullen is personally watching out for her as some type of acknowledgement to Hawke; even then, Bethany mentions in her letter that she still has to stay away from some people.

She says she wants to stay away from Alrik because he creeps her out. Kinda understand that one. She also says that the Templars are mostly polite, though some of them hold extreme views. The ONLY Templar she ever mentions she wants to stay away from, is Alrik. 

General User wrote... 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Edit: And are you actually quoting yourself as a reliable source of Thedas history? 

No, I was proposing an alternate phrasing of a contentious statement and hoping you'd respond in kind.  Thus providing me with a better understanding of this matter and your perception thereof.

Oh. Well... Don't know how to respond to that:blush:

General User wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Given the events of the war, we can pretty much ascertain that that was not the case. The Chantry did not step in until the Grand Cathedral of Val Royaux itself was threatened.

And while the Dalish had made no attacks on any other Andrastian nation, and thus could be argued as neutral towards them. They did sack the most holy of Chantries, and the headquarters of Thedas' dominant religion, which made it an international war, instead of one between Orlais and the Dales.

Souns like the Dalish were winnign the war and just went too far.

The Dalish very much were winning the war. If they hadn't sacked Val Royaux, they might even have escaped the Andrastian retribution.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Oh I suppose some might make the same deal the mages did 900 years ago.  Especially if they were ignorant of what it would be really like.

But saying that something is better than starving to death isn't exactly high praise.

Do YOU have any idea what it is like? Or do you just have an idea of what it is like? You try hard and make it sound like the mages of all Circles everywhere are leading a miserable existance, even when many mages claim that they like it in the Circles. When mages like Wynne, Irving and Bethany claim that the Circles aren't as bad as some Libertarians and Apostates claim, and admits to it neccesity, well let's just say I'm quicker to trust their word, than the words of abominations and madmen... But hey, that MAY just be me.

I don't think we hear "many mages" say they like the circle.  There's Finn who seems to like it a lot.  Bethany thinks it's better than being an apostate and causing her entire family to be looking over their shoulders. 

There's a larger number of mages who think that supporting the circle is safer than fighting against it.  This would be Wynn and Irving types.  And then there's a number of them who think freedom is worth fighting for.

Honestly we don't hear a lot from circle mages.  Even in Asunder the story focuses on just a few.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

I don't think we hear "many mages" say they like the circle.  There's Finn who seems to like it a lot.  Bethany thinks it's better than being an apostate and causing her entire family to be looking over their shoulders. 

There's a larger number of mages who think that supporting the circle is safer than fighting against it.  This would be Wynn and Irving types.  And then there's a number of them who think freedom is worth fighting for.

Honestly we don't hear a lot from circle mages.  Even in Asunder the story focuses on just a few.

Bullseye as always.

There's lots of reasons some mages may say they like the Circle anyway.  Starting with Stockholm Syndrome.  Then going on to things like their only possible comparison being to spending their life in hiding, demonized (no pun intended) in the public's eye by the very people offering this "safe" haven.  Simply not being an outlaw and viewed as a supernatural time bomb would be an improvement in many people's eyes, even at the cost of freedom.  But those are conditions created by the Chantry, hardly a fair comparison to what their lives would be like if the Chantry just minded their own frickin' business.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Oh I suppose some might make the same deal the mages did 900 years ago.  Especially if they were ignorant of what it would be really like.

But saying that something is better than starving to death isn't exactly high praise.

Do YOU have any idea what it is like? Or do you just have an idea of what it is like? You try hard and make it sound like the mages of all Circles everywhere are leading a miserable existance, even when many mages claim that they like it in the Circles. When mages like Wynne, Irving and Bethany claim that the Circles aren't as bad as some Libertarians and Apostates claim, and admits to it neccesity, well let's just say I'm quicker to trust their word, than the words of abominations and madmen... But hey, that MAY just be me.

I don't think we hear "many mages" say they like the circle.  There's Finn who seems to like it a lot.  Bethany thinks it's better than being an apostate and causing her entire family to be looking over their shoulders. 

There's a larger number of mages who think that supporting the circle is safer than fighting against it.  This would be Wynn and Irving types.  And then there's a number of them who think freedom is worth fighting for.

Honestly we don't hear a lot from circle mages.  Even in Asunder the story focuses on just a few.

Weren't you among the fellas who, about two pages ago, claimed that the majority's silence equals their consent? 
So if the majority of all the Circle mages have been silent for 900 years, it isn't because of their consent, but because what?

No oppresive system can function for 900 years, unless the oppressers are of such magnitude that the oppressed doesn't stand a chance for survival. Even then tehre are bound to be frequent rebellions if the conditions are truly abhorrent.

Its about time you all faced the truth: That life in the Circles aren't even nearly as bad as some would have you think.

[Fast Jimmy]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Oh I suppose some might make the same deal the mages did 900 years ago.  Especially if they were ignorant of what it would be really like.

But saying that something is better than starving to death isn't exactly high praise.

Do YOU have any idea what it is like? Or do you just have an idea of what it is like? You try hard and make it sound like the mages of all Circles everywhere are leading a miserable existance, even when many mages claim that they like it in the Circles. When mages like Wynne, Irving and Bethany claim that the Circles aren't as bad as some Libertarians and Apostates claim, and admits to it neccesity, well let's just say I'm quicker to trust their word, than the words of abominations and madmen... But hey, that MAY just be me.

I don't think we hear "many mages" say they like the circle.  There's Finn who seems to like it a lot.  Bethany thinks it's better than being an apostate and causing her entire family to be looking over their shoulders. 

There's a larger number of mages who think that supporting the circle is safer than fighting against it.  This would be Wynn and Irving types.  And then there's a number of them who think freedom is worth fighting for.

Honestly we don't hear a lot from circle mages.  Even in Asunder the story focuses on just a few.

Weren't you among the fellas who, about two pages ago, claimed that the majority's silence equals their consent? 
So if the majority of all the Circle mages have been silent for 900 years, it isn't because of their consent, but because what?

No oppresive system can function for 900 years, unless the oppressers are of such magnitude that the oppressed doesn't stand a chance for survival. Even then tehre are bound to be frequent rebellions if the conditions are truly abhorrent.

Its about time you all faced the truth: That life in the Circles aren't even nearly as bad as some would have you think.

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "life in the Circles are nearly as bad as life in the Circle in Kirkwall under Meredith's crazy, psychopathic rule."

My Warden's mage playthrough of DAO did not even hint at most mages thinking the Templars were cruel and oppressive. Sure, not as much freedom as they'd like, but the Dalish seemed more oppressed in DAO than the mages.

Not to downplay the mage's "struggle" but, in all honesty? The reason the devs went with the Mage/Templar conflict was so that there could be a better reason to have more mages in combat situations for future games. If 99% of all mages live in circles, why would you be fighting so many groups with them? 

That's the question they were trying to resolve. The devs weren't trying to say the Chantry or the Templars are evil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They sure go out of their way trying to depict them as the generic mustache twisting baddies in Asunder and DA3......

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 février 2012 - 07:06 .

[dragonflight288]

They most certainly were trying to go out of their way to say the mages weren't all sunshine and bunnies either.

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...

I don't think we hear "many mages" say they like the circle.  There's Finn who seems to like it a lot.  Bethany thinks it's better than being an apostate and causing her entire family to be looking over their shoulders. 

There's a larger number of mages who think that supporting the circle is safer than fighting against it.  This would be Wynn and Irving types.  And then there's a number of them who think freedom is worth fighting for.

Honestly we don't hear a lot from circle mages.  Even in Asunder the story focuses on just a few.

Logically speaking it probably depends a lot on what specific circle they're in.  Finn, Wynne and Irving are all from the circle in Ferelden, and the Knight-Commander there strikes me as a fairly reasonable person, as templars go.  Bethany was facing the Gallows.  The name alone was probably enough to frighten her away, and if that didn't stories about Knight-Commander Meredeth cemented that idea.

Also, personality of the mage in question has to come into play.  Bethany, even facing the gallows was willing to turn go peacefuly with Cullen, and may have even turned herself in.  Whereas Anders strikes me as someone who would rebel against being imprissoned in a ritzy penthouse apartment with free ice cream.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No oppresive system can function for 900 years, unless the oppressers are of such magnitude that the oppressed doesn't stand a chance for survival. Even then tehre are bound to be frequent rebellions if the conditions are truly abhorrent.

Its about time you all faced the truth: That life in the Circles aren't even nearly as bad as some would have you think.

I know, right?  You'd think there'd have been a lot of rebellions.  They could even have a special name for when it's so bad that they have to kill EVERYONE and just start fresh.  ...  Woah, why does this sound so familiar all of a sudden?

[CrimsonZephyr]

There have been rebellions in the past 900 years. I'm willing to wager at least some of those 17 Annulments were rebellions suppressed in their infancy by the Templars and written off as garden-variety blood magic tomfoolery taken to the next level. Mages would be less likely to question the Templars because early on, trust in the Templars was higher. But once that trust leaves, it's very difficult to get back. It might not always have been terrible, but the point is it's gotten progressively worse over time.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 02 février 2012 - 09:13 .

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Weren't you among the fellas who, about two pages ago, claimed that the majority's silence equals their consent? 
So if the majority of all the Circle mages have been silent for 900 years, it isn't because of their consent, but because what?

No oppresive system can function for 900 years, unless the oppressers are of such magnitude that the oppressed doesn't stand a chance for survival. Even then tehre are bound to be frequent rebellions if the conditions are truly abhorrent.

Its about time you all faced the truth: That life in the Circles aren't even nearly as bad as some would have you think.

I was one of those who said that the majority of people going day to day calling themselves Andrastians and feeling however much safer due to the mean old demon infested mages being all locked up are contributing.  These folks almost universally believe and perpetuate the Chantry dogma on mages.  Cullen says that Kirkwall is strange because the Templars have less support than usual from the people.

The mages who are kidnapped at sword point and forced to live in circles where they are told all manner of bad things will happen to them without the stern guidance of the Templars are in a totally different situation.  People taken from their family and raised by suspicious and sometimes downright hostile warders are unlikely to grow up with healthy minds.  They "consent" as it were for many reasons:  fear, hopelessness, actual belief in the system, biding their time for the right moment to strike...

Most of the reasons we've heard from mages who seem to be cooperating are more along the lines of fear than happiness.  Even Wynne votes to stay in the circle for the stated reason that the Templars will simply hunt down and kill the mages if they free themselves.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 02 février 2012 - 09:50 .

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Logically speaking it probably depends a lot on what specific circle they're in.  Finn, Wynne and Irving are all from the circle in Ferelden, and the Knight-Commander there strikes me as a fairly reasonable person, as templars go.  Bethany was facing the Gallows.  The name alone was probably enough to frighten her away, and if that didn't stories about Knight-Commander Meredeth cemented that idea.

It also seems like a generally bad thing when your quality of life depends so much on the arbitrary decision of someone else about where you have to live.

[Ivucci]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No oppresive system can function for 900 years, unless the oppressers are of such magnitude that the oppressed doesn't stand a chance for survival. Even then tehre are bound to be frequent rebellions if the conditions are truly abhorrent.

Its about time you all faced the truth: That life in the Circles aren't even nearly as bad as some would have you think.

Sure, you get a warm bed, free education and are fed each day, while farmers and ordinary townsfolk are brutalized by darkspawn, diseases and tax collectors.

But I still don't think that's the point.

Societies evolve, values change, focus shifts, seemingly unimportant events and ideas pile up to eventually move the larger wheel... until suddenly, you cannot go back to the times when everyone seemed to be happy about the state of things (edit: and I doubt they actually were)

You like living a safe, peaceful life in the Circle with your nose stuck in books all life, slowly climbing the Circle reputation ladder? Sure, go ahead! You think there's something more to life than that? Oh hold on a minute...

Modifié par Ivucci, 02 février 2012 - 10:26 .

[Rifneno]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Logically speaking it probably depends a lot on what specific circle they're in. Finn, Wynne and Irving are all from the circle in Ferelden, and the Knight-Commander there strikes me as a fairly reasonable person, as templars go. Bethany was facing the Gallows. The name alone was probably enough to frighten her away, and if that didn't stories about Knight-Commander Meredeth cemented that idea.

It depends in as far as it determines whether their life just really sucks or if they're treated like a PoW in WWII Japan. Consider all the things Anders says about why he hates the Circle. That he was lucky just to have not been raped, or that there's an unwritten rule for mages not to fall in love because it just gives the templars a new power over them, or my personal favorite, that for all the talk of demons the most common death for a mage was suicide. Remembering all that? Good. Now remember this: He was from the Ferelden Circle, not Kirkwall's. The one that all the templar defenders talk about being such a paradise because they saw a nice library in the prologue of DAO. Now of course, they also retort that since Anders lied once about the bomb therefor every single thing he's ever said in his life is a lie. I won't even get into that minefield of logical fallacies, but I'll pose this question instead. If life in the Ferelden Circle was so good, how did Uldred manage to recruit so many people for a big rebellion that they knew would probably cost them their lives?

Huh... almost seems like life sucks in Kinloch Hold too, doesn't it?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

General User wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think if the Chantry was itching to to war with Orzammar at any point during the 900 years that it could have. And the game would have mentioned any cause of tension if there was more beyond the two incidents described in the epilogue.

Exalted Marches aren't called on any non Andrastian nation on a whim. They have to be perceived as a threat. Orzammar is not an enemy of any human nation. The Dales, Qunari and Tevinter Imperium had either decades of tension or open warfare before The Divine called for Exalted Marches against them.

The bolded sentences would seem to contradict.  The cause of the tension between the Chantry and Orzammar is mentioned several times: lyrium.

My point was that 900 years is a long time for two factions to be at peace, if there were the type of tensions between them like there was with the Tevinter Chantry for instance I'd think the war would have happened already. And I never really remember anything from the game implying that the lyrium trade caused enough tension between the two sides that open warfare was considered a real threat.

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Logically speaking it probably depends a lot on what specific circle they're in. Finn, Wynne and Irving are all from the circle in Ferelden, and the Knight-Commander there strikes me as a fairly reasonable person, as templars go. Bethany was facing the Gallows. The name alone was probably enough to frighten her away, and if that didn't stories about Knight-Commander Meredeth cemented that idea.

It depends in as far as it determines whether their life just really sucks or if they're treated like a PoW in WWII Japan. Consider all the things Anders says about why he hates the Circle. That he was lucky just to have not been raped, or that there's an unwritten rule for mages not to fall in love because it just gives the templars a new power over them, or my personal favorite, that for all the talk of demons the most common death for a mage was suicide. Remembering all that? Good. Now remember this: He was from the Ferelden Circle, not Kirkwall's. The one that all the templar defenders talk about being such a paradise because they saw a nice library in the prologue of DAO. Now of course, they also retort that since Anders lied once about the bomb therefor every single thing he's ever said in his life is a lie. I won't even get into that minefield of logical fallacies, but I'll pose this question instead. If life in the Ferelden Circle was so good, how did Uldred manage to recruit so many people for a big rebellion that they knew would probably cost them their lives?

Huh... almost seems like life sucks in Kinloch Hold too, doesn't it?

On Anders you will keep in mind that he was a constant run away.  I went to a nice school with good teachers but many students constantly went on about how harsh and terrible the school was.  You know the difference between those kids and me?  I didn't cause trouble.  I'm not going to say Anders was lying, or even that he's exaggerating, I will however say that people who constantly cause trouble within a community inevitably view that community as harsh and terrible.  Again not saying he's lying just pointing out that his view of the Fereldan Circle is heavily biased because of his poor behaviour.

On Uldred, in any community you will find those who desire more.  You could build a utopia where everyone has everything they could ever desire and there would still be people who wanted more.  Uldred gathered his followers from fellow Libertarians and power hungry children, if he'd managed to sway Aequitarians, Lecrosians, or Isolationists you'd have a case but I don't recall anything to indicate that.

[Lazy Jer]

Rifneno wrote...

It depends in as far as it determines whether their life just really sucks or if they're treated like a PoW in WWII Japan. Consider all the things Anders says about why he hates the Circle. That he was lucky just to have not been raped, or that there's an unwritten rule for mages not to fall in love because it just gives the templars a new power over them, or my personal favorite, that for all the talk of demons the most common death for a mage was suicide. Remembering all that? Good. Now remember this: He was from the Ferelden Circle, not Kirkwall's. The one that all the templar defenders talk about being such a paradise because they saw a nice library in the prologue of DAO. Now of course, they also retort that since Anders lied once about the bomb therefor every single thing he's ever said in his life is a lie. I won't even get into that minefield of logical fallacies, but I'll pose this question instead. If life in the Ferelden Circle was so good, how did Uldred manage to recruit so many people for a big rebellion that they knew would probably cost them their lives?

Huh... almost seems like life sucks in Kinloch Hold too, doesn't it?

I didn't say life in Ferelden's Circle was good.  I said it was better then The Gallows.  But just you've pointed out that the Cirlce in Ferelden wasn't cloud nine because it had a nice library, I'd like to point out that it wasn't exactly the nineth level of hell.

Truth be told, I agree the Cirlce needs to change.  But if it did change it would be a pretty good idea.  It's a source of knowledge and a source of education for young mages to learn to use, and more importantly control, their powers.  Take Wynn.  She learned quite a number of helpful spells and learned how to channel her magic to create something due to her education in the circle.  If she hadn't, she would have either been lynched by an angry mob, or she would have become a half-crazed pyromaniac after torching an angry mob.  It's been acknowledge that Anders had done quite a lot of good in Darktown because he was using his powers to heal the sick and the wounded, for free no less.  Where, though, did he learn those skills?  I'm willing to bet it was the Circle.

I'm not saying the circle is the only place to learn to use and control your powers, Morrigan certainly managed well without it, but teachers like Flemeth are vew and far between.  Thank the Maker for that...for she weilds a power that will put a murderous rage into even the strictest of pascifists.  I'm talking about her jokes, of course, but I digress...the point is if the focus of the circle were on education rather then imprisonment It wouldn't be so bad.

[General User]

Rifneno wrote...
If life in the Ferelden Circle was so good, how did Uldred manage to recruit so many people for a big rebellion that they knew would probably cost them their lives?

The same way all rebellions recruit.  By using threats, promises, and flattery to play to people's hopes and fears, their aspiration and their greed, their hatred and their hope, and (in that case especially) their Pride.

Modifié par General User, 03 février 2012 - 03:51 .