2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Porenferser]

Rifneno wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

No, he is worse.

You should pay attention to the story next time.

I did.
And my personal conclusion was:
Anders, along with Orsino and Merrill, is the best reason for me to hate the mages in DA2:sick:

[dragonflight288]

Merrill isn't bad or even close to evil. Hers is a story of pride getting in the way of discussion and preconceptions about what is and isn't best....

But that's another topic that I won't get into. I won't stop if I do.

Alrik, Kerras, and Meredith are more than enough reasons to hate the templars though. Just as strong as the argument of Anders and Orsino.

[TEWR]

Orsino shouldn't even be held accountable for the mages since the only reason he did what he did was so there'd be more boss fights. That's the actual reason given by Gaider to someone he talked with.

From a story perspective, I don't count it at all. It never happened. It's just an instance of Bioware focusing more on combat then they did on the horrendous story.

Obviously, I don't see Merrill as bad or evil either.

Anders.... meh. I don't hate all mages for what he did. If I did, I would've sided with the fascist nutjob wielding a glowing red sword. I justify what he did really, even if I would've preferred that how he came to that idea was just a little bit different.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2012 - 09:50 .

[Porenferser]

Orsino shouldn't even be held accountable for the mages since the only
reason he did what he did was so there'd be more boss fights. That's the
actual reason given by Gaider to someone he talked with.

Wrong.
This was the reason on the Mage-side.

Just like Meredith on the templar side.

Modifié par Porenferser, 04 février 2012 - 09:58 .

[TEWR]

Yea... and? I was talking about it happening on the mage side. I don't think anyone flipped out for having to fight Orsino on the Templar side.

I'm not going to say "For the Mage side!" when that's clearly the one that's meant. The one that really pissed people off.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2012 - 10:02 .

[Porenferser]

But still, even if Orsino hadn't turned into a Harvester on the mage-side, he'd still be a dirty hypocrite who covered a serial killer.

This is the reason I hate him, not the Harvester-thing.

[HiroVoid]

You pretty much have to count Orsino. One way or another, it happened, and the chances of it having a justification in a future installment is much more likely than it being retconned.

[Ivucci]

General User wrote...

I'm just thinking about why it is that most revolutions only end up replacing one tyranny with another. Why did the American Revolution end in a stable republic, while most all other revolutions and independence movements end in some combination of chaos and dictatorship?

And the thing I keep coming back to is that, even under the British Crown, the North American colonies had stable, mainly republican forms of government. Because the American Founding Fathers knew how freedom worked on both a theoretical and a practical level, they were able to set up a system that respected and cherished freedom. But in, for example, France, the people had no real experience or understanding of freedom beyond the theoretical. So it is no surprise that that revolution degenerated the way it did.

Ah, so you're thinking a bit along the lines of what Fenris might say.

Funny thing is that IRL I'm usually the first to complain about the tyranny of civil rights (or rather tyranny of those who interpret the term freely and in their favour). And I definitely wouldn't promote democracy and democratic freedoms to be introduced to many nations of today as it's clear those societies are not ready and would just crumble and explode and take the whole region with them (ahem).

Well I don't feel confident enough in this subject to comment on the differences between various revolutions. All I can say is that within my standpoint, I'm not looking at reversing distribution of power, I'm not promoting putting mages in charge of anything, I'm not even calling (or rather am still undecided in this matter) for abolishment of the Chantry.

In fact, the change I'd like to see shouldn't in theory have any huge practical consequences on the way the life rolls. What I mean is, if you abolish slavery, you have to transform the whole economic structure that had up until now been based on free labour force. If you give mages basic human rights and allow them to live with their families, what will in fact change?

Almost nothing, except certain groups who claim they have the exclusive right to the Truth because that's how Maker made the world will have to admit they were wrong.

Modifié par Ivucci, 05 février 2012 - 10:45 .

[TEWR]

HiroVoid wrote...

You pretty much have to count Orsino. One way or another, it happened, and the chances of it having a justification in a future installment is much more likely than it being retconned.

Bring back your Dwarf avatar!

And honestly, there is no justification for it. They made him out to be a sane person who doesn't have any mental/psychological issues, and then they pull that out of nowhere with not enough buildup to it.

Even if there was buildup to it, it would still seem like a cheap ploy to make a situation that wasn't morally grey be morally grey.

What are they going to do, say Meredith raped him night and day? It would be a pointless attempt at justifying a failure on the part of Bioware.

They need to retcon it.

[HiroVoid]

Pfft. You people. I pretty much use whatever avatar I play as at the moment.  I guess there aren't enough Dwarf avatars around though.  I was going to wait for a patch for importing for Awakening.....until I realized that's never going to happen. Was pleasantly surprised to learn I could finally get my picture updated through it though. Once I get done, I'll get done with playing my DC through the story. Only 3 more origins to cover after that.

As for Orsino, it was done for gameplay reasons, but it's not going to change. Didn't they also have to make an entire background storyline just to justify so many blood mages being around as well?

Modifié par HiroVoid, 05 février 2012 - 10:36 .

[TEWR]

Dwarves honestly need more representation. We need to have more prominence in Dragon Age. Bring back Dwarf protagonists!

Also, Sigrun. We need more Sigrun. Preferably with longer hair.

I could never really get into the DC origin and see it through to the end. All I did was go to Ostagar and then I dropped it. It was good certainly, but the Dwarf Noble origin just held my interest more.

And yea, some of Bioware's comments in interviews lately seems to point to the Enigma of Kirkwall being just an excuse for all of the cuckoo mages we see.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 12:01 .

[Rifneno]

Porenferser wrote...

But still, even if Orsino hadn't turned into a Harvester on the mage-side, he'd still be a dirty hypocrite who covered a serial killer.

This is the reason I hate him, not the Harvester-thing.

Yeah, that excuse he gave about not turning Quentin in once he found out he was killing people because he thought Meredith would take it out on the Circle was such bull.  What's she going to do anyway?  Annul them?  Please!  Like she'd ever murder every man woman and child in the Circle for the actions of an apostate!  Who does he think he's kidding?!

[TEWR]

I'm trying to wrap my head around just how Orsino is a hypocrite.

also, what Rifneno said

[Porenferser]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm trying to wrap my head around just how Orsino is a hypocrite.

- He claims that Meredith accuses him falsely of using blood magic. Yeah...

- He claims the circle to be innocent. Just look how many blood mages and abominations you have to fight in the end

- He covers Quentin, even though he knows that he will murder on.

Yeah, some innocent Orsino is....

[Rifneno]

Porenferser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm trying to wrap my head around just how Orsino is a hypocrite.

- He claims that Meredith accuses him falsely of using blood magic. Yeah...

- He claims the circle to be innocent. Just look how many blood mages and abominations you have to fight in the end

- He covers Quentin, even though he knows that he will murder on.

Yeah, some innocent Orsino is....

- He also says when he does it that ironically this is the first time he's used blood magic.  Yeah, I know the go-to excuse for the pro-fas--er, pro-templar group is "but the mage was lying!"  However since he was about to kill himself he had no reason to lie anymore.  The fact that HE brings up his involvement with Quentin kind of shows that he knows there's no reason to lie too.

- And he knew what each and every member of the Circle was up to?  Abominations, that's a good one.  I guess you missed the part where the templars were committing genocide.  Maaaaybe that had something to do with the mages freaking out enough to get possessed?  You think?

- Yep.  Because the alternative is letting Meredith use it as an excuse to bring the hammer down on the circle.  You know.  Like she's doing when all this happens.  I imagine if it was the other way around and Hawke's terrible excuse for a mother got murdered by Meredith because Quentin ratted out a guy that killed a few people and thus caused ten times that to be killed by the templars, you'd still be blaming him.

- You don't know what the word hypocrite means.

[Zkyire]

Rifneno wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm trying to wrap my head around just how Orsino is a hypocrite.

- He claims that Meredith accuses him falsely of using blood magic. Yeah...

- He claims the circle to be innocent. Just look how many blood mages and abominations you have to fight in the end

- He covers Quentin, even though he knows that he will murder on.

Yeah, some innocent Orsino is....

- He also says when he does it that ironically this is the first time he's used blood magic.  Yeah, I know the go-to excuse for the pro-fas--er, pro-templar group is "but the mage was lying!"  However since he was about to kill himself he had no reason to lie anymore.  The fact that HE brings up his involvement with Quentin kind of shows that he knows there's no reason to lie too.

- And he knew what each and every member of the Circle was up to?  Abominations, that's a good one.  I guess you missed the part where the templars were committing genocide.  Maaaaybe that had something to do with the mages freaking out enough to get possessed?  You think?

- Yep.  Because the alternative is letting Meredith use it as an excuse to bring the hammer down on the circle.  You know.  Like she's doing when all this happens.  I imagine if it was the other way around and Hawke's terrible excuse for a mother got murdered by Meredith because Quentin ratted out a guy that killed a few people and thus caused ten times that to be killed by the templars, you'd still be blaming him.

- You don't know what the word hypocrite means.

He's the leader of the Circle in Kirkwall.

He's supposed to know what the other mages are up to.

And it's not even just a couple. If it were one or two mages turning to blood magic; fine I can understand. But there were massive amounts of blood mages there. No way he didn't know.

And for someone who had not used blood magic before, he seemed to know exactly what to do to turn into a giant, hulking abomination at the drop of a hat.

[TEWR]

Porenferser wrote...

- He claims that Meredith accuses him falsely of using blood magic. Yeah...

What Rifneno said. This is literally the first time he's ever used blood magic. He had no reason to lie when he's about to off himself (out of plot stupidity).

- He claims the circle to be innocent. Just look how many blood mages and abominations you have to fight in the end

Okay, first off, this is like saying you should burn down an entire orchard because you found a few bad trees with a few bad apples.

Second, let's see here.... Meredith the crazy nutjob is killing off every mage for what Anders -- an apostate. Let's remember that folks! -- did. Then, when we come to Lowtown, we see a mage cornered by Templars pleading for her life -- to which the Templars don't really give a **** because they're mindless dumbasses following the will of Meredith Stalin -- before she's forcibly taken over by a demon.

Yea, she's still innocent.

Then when we come to a certain point, we see mages and Templars both praying. Then we see a Desire Demon pop up out of the ground and those mages and Templars attack Hawke.

Yea... none of those mages used blood magic. So the logical assumption to make is that they were the demon's thralls. You know, like the Desire demon did to whats-his-name in Broken Circle.

So.... where are these blood mages again? Oh right, Orsino. Because a first time blood mage means that the rest must be blood mages.

Never mind the massive amount of apostates we see in the city using blood magic, who hold no affiliation to the Circle.

- He covers Quentin, even though he knows that he will murder on.

So? What are his options? Meredith has got the mages under intense scrutiny -- and that's sugarcoating it to the point of contracting diabetes -- so he can't go out there and kill Quentin himself. Nor can he report Quentin to the Templars because of what Meredith would do.

Remember that at this point in time she acquired the lyrium idol and was already under its effects, as it had affected Bartrand as soon as he grabbed it (note the red glow when he touches the damn thing). So it's safe to say that she was insane at this point.

Hell she got pissed off at Hawke for being the one to kill the Arishok and thus robbing her of potential influence to gain.

So let's see. He can't do anything because of Meredith's suspicion and ire. Templars will just kill him since they're 90% composed of fanatical zealots. And if he goes to the City Guard, they'll just report it to the Templars.

The only thing he could've done was tell Hawke about it and plead for Hawke to not tell the Templars because he made a grave mistake. And even then, that's iffy because the Mages weren't even allowed to send letters unless they had influence in a city and wealth. Both of those Orsino doesn't have.

And for someone who had not used blood magic before, he seemed to know exactly what to do to turn into a giant, hulking abomination at the drop of a hat.

Well you know, Quentin did send Orsino very detailed reports. Quentin was doing research. Research almost always entails details on what's being researched.

This isn't something you can exactly practice you know. Orsino couldn't have just gone "Alright, Harvestino time!" and then go "Okay, Orsino time!".

I still maintain that it never happened in the events of Kirkwall and it's just Varric embellishing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 02:12 .

[Porenferser]

1. Insulting is never a good way to debate (pro fascist).

2. What Zkyire said. A rookie could never perform such a ritual.

3. Demons don't posses mages out of nothing. They do it when they sleep, which means all the scum was posessed even before.

4. If he'd been honest from the beginning it would not have happened. In Act 3 yes, because Meredith had gone insane by that time, but he knew it already in Act 2.

5. Yes I do. And if you don't call a guy a hypocrite who always says that the templars are wrong and secretly does all the things that make him the perfect example of a bad mage, then feel free to give me your definition.

[TEWR]

3. Demons don't posses mages out of nothing. They do it when they sleep, which means all the scum was posessed even before.

Uldred would like to have a word with you. He was awake when he got possessed.

Hell the Tranquil in Origins were awake when they got possessed.

And let's see, so was Olivia. She was possessed after she had begged for help.

you seem to desperately want to believe all the mages were already possessed, when the lore of Dragon Age proves you wrong.

4. If he'd been honest from the beginning it would not have happened. In Act 3 yes, because Meredith had gone insane by that time, but he knew it already in Act 2.

Again, Meredith was insane in Act 2 because she had already acquired the idol.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 02:17 .

[Porenferser]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Uldred would like to have a word with you. He was awake when he got possessed.

He transformed when he was awake, the posession came long before.
Read the codex again.

Again, Meredith was insane in Act 2 because she had already acquired the idol

Speculation.
You don't know when her madness began.

Also, Quentin started to murder in Act 1, when the idol wasn't even found, and Orsino had been in contact with him all along, so no excuse there.

[TEWR]

He transformed when he was awake, the posession came long before.
Read the codex again.

You said a mage could only be possessed when they were asleep.

Uldred got possessed during his rebellion

Don't believe me? Talk to Niall. Kinda hard to rebel if you're asleep.

Speculation.
You don't know when her madness began.

No. Fact. The idol immediately began working on Bartrand when he acquired it. If it did it to him it did it to Meredith as well.

Hell, even more so! Remember that Bartrand broke the damn thing and kept a piece, and Anders himself says that it's even more dangerous and potent when it's broken! Varric was being affected by it when he picked up the shard.

Bartrand broke it off, sold it to Meredith, and Meredith was under its spell immediately.

Face it. She was insane and Orsino couldn't have gone to her.

Also, Quentin started to murder in Act 1, when the idol wasn't even found, and Orsino had been in contact with him all along, so no excuse there.

Blame Hawke. Blame Aveline too. They had enough evidence to launch an investigation and didn't give a **** about a killer roaming the streets.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 02:28 .

[Porenferser]

(Sorry, mixed up names for a moment)

But Uldred willingly made a pact with his demon.
Thats something different.

There are 2 options to become an abomination:
- Make a pact with him
- Become posessed when sleeping

Both is reason enough to get rid of a mage.

No. Fact. The idol immediately began working on Bartrand when he acquired it. If it did it to him it did it to Meredith as well.

Bartrand was weak.
It didn't work immidiately on Varric or Hawke either.
Meredith is a strong person, the proces of her becoming mad was longer.

Blame Hawke. Blame Aveline too. They had enough evidence to launch an
investigation and didn't give a **** about a killer roaming the streets.

That a different thing.
But Orsino knew what was going on and still didn't do anything.

Modifié par Porenferser, 05 février 2012 - 02:29 .

[TEWR]

Porenferser wrote...

(Sorry, mixed up names for a moment)

But Uldred willingly made a pact with his demon.
Thats something different.

Yeah... uh... NO.

He started screaming as soon as the Pride Demon possessed him. You think screaming is a sign of a willing possession? Hell, Niall says that he thinks Uldred probably wishes he (Uldred) was dead now.

Bartrand was weak.
It didn't work immidiately on Varric or Hawke either.[
Meredith is a strong person, the proces of her becoming mad was longer.

LOL at "Meredith is a strong person". Yea, because the only instance of that is to ask the person who's so far under the idol's influence she thinks Hawke is an Abomination/Blood Mage and says "I'm not weak like the Dwarf!"

Yea. Meredith's strong alright. NOT.

You know how Varric was affected by that broken shard of the idol he picked up in his Act 3 quest? Bartrand broke the damn thing before he sold it. It affected Varric then and he admits to Hawke that he wasn't acting like himself after they leave if Hawke told Varric to get rid of the thing.

Bartrand took it, broke it, sold it to Meredith, and she fell under its influence immediately. Anders flat out states that the thing is more potent when broken. If it affected Varric immediately, it affected her immediately.

There is no dancing around that. She was insane during Act 2.

That a different thing.
But Orsino knew what was going on and still didn't do anything.

First off, we don't know what Orsino did and didn't do. Even what I stated above on what he could and couldn't have done is me just guessing. We only know that he didn't tell Meredith. He could've been looking into it on his own terms trying to find Quentin, and then Hawke killed him before he could confront him.

Second, neither was Meredith when Emeric reported the serial killer to his higher-ups! For Christ's sake, you're accusing and blaming Orsino for not coming forward when Meredith wouldn't even continue an investigation one of her real Templars was actually pursuing?

Jesus Christ...

Meredith deserves more blame than Orsino. Orsino acted rationally given his circumstances. If the Knight Commander was someone like Gregoir, then Orsino could be blamed.

But Meredith? No, Orsino made the smart move by not telling her. He holds a duty to protect his charges. Kinda hard to do that when Meredith is insane and out to Annul the Mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 03:02 .

[Porenferser]

Yeah, think what you want, don't even know why I started this discussion again, its always the same.
Always *Mages good, Templars bad*
Its really tiring.

I stick to what I say, and you are free to stick to what you say.

[TEWR]

Sure go ahead, but the evidence is plain as day that Meredith was a nutjob in Act 2 when she acquired the idol.

Hell, I didn't even say all mages were good and all Templars were bad. You must've missed the part where I called Emeric a real Templar. Or where I talked about Gregoir and if he was in charge of Kirkwall's Circle.

You've got bad mages. You've got good mages. You've got bad Templars. You've got good Templars.

Orsino is not a bad mage.

Meredith however, is a really bad Templar.