2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Porenferser wrote...

1. Insulting is never a good way to debate (pro fascist).

2. What Zkyire said. A rookie could never perform such a ritual.

3. Demons don't posses mages out of nothing. They do it when they sleep, which means all the scum was posessed even before.

4. If he'd been honest from the beginning it would not have happened. In Act 3 yes, because Meredith had gone insane by that time, but he knew it already in Act 2.

5. Yes I do. And if you don't call a guy a hypocrite who always says that the templars are wrong and secretly does all the things that make him the perfect example of a bad mage, then feel free to give me your definition.

1. Templars are fascists. Is this another word you heard a political pundit use and just kind of guessed its meaning?

2. Oh, I forgot that you guys are experts on the intricacies of blood magic and golem creation. Wait...

3. That's not even remote true. True is a long distance call from where you are. You have to dial like 7 extra numbers.

4. Meredith has been looney tunes since the incident with her sister. The lyrium crazyblade just intensified it and gave her ridiculous jumping & statue powers. Pay more attention to dialogue with the other templars, or even just the fact that Macha is terrified to talk about Meredith to Hawke in Act I.

5. That would be true if evidence of his using forbidden magics prior to Meredith's Final Solution was more compelling than a few people going "but that's an advanced spell to pull off on his first time!" But you asked for my definition of hypocrite? Well, as soon as you posted this:

Speculation.
You don't know when her madness began.

That's a pretty good example.

[General User]

As early as 1946 author George Orwell noted that the terms 'fascist' or 'fascism' as used in most conversations had no meaning beyond 'someone or something not desirable.'

Their lack of real meaning and emotionally charged nature makes them terms best avoided in polite or productive conversation.

[TEWR]

5. That would be true if evidence of his using forbidden magics prior to Meredith's Final Solution was more compelling than a few people going "but that's an advanced spell to pull off on his first time!" But you asked for my definition of hypocrite? Well, as soon as you posted this:

I can't fully recall the way I rationalized the Harvestino incident beyond me saying it was due to Varric embellishing, but I think I said that Orsino had an eidetic memory and the detailed report on the Harvester provided by Quentin traumatized him so much that he could never forget it. His eidetic memory became a curse when it was otherwise a useful gift.

As I said, it was my personal rationalization and nothing in-game really backed it up to make it seem as fact, but it made sense to me.

Ideally, he wouldn't have gone Harvestino but he would've said that report scared the crap out of him and he could never forget it.

I actually wish that if Orsino had to be fought, it was him as a really powerful Force Mage. And Bioware could've taken some concepts from the Kingdom Hearts II battle with Xigbar, who manipulated gravity and space just like a Force Mage does.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 03:54 .

[Rifneno]

General User wrote...

As early as 1946 author George Orwell noted that the terms 'fascist' or 'fascism' as used in most conversations had no meaning beyond 'someone or something not desirable.'

Their lack of real meaning and emotionally charged nature makes them terms best avoided in polite or productive conversation.

Yes, Orwell complained that people misuse the word.  So?  That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a meaning, nor that I'm misusing it.  Authoritarians that view one ethnic group as better than another.  Yeah, that's templars alright.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I actually wish that if Orsino had to be fought, it was him as a really powerful Force Mage. And Bioware could've taken some concepts from the Kingdom Hearts II battle with Xigbar, who manipulated gravity and space just like a Force Mage does.

Or just gone over and asked the Mass Effect team for some of their scrapped ideas for biotics.  Lore-wise a force mage and a biotic are VERY different.  Combat technique wise?  Pretty much the same thing.

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

General User wrote...

As early as 1946 author George Orwell noted that the terms 'fascist' or 'fascism' as used in most conversations had no meaning beyond 'someone or something not desirable.'

Their lack of real meaning and emotionally charged nature makes them terms best avoided in polite or productive conversation.

Yes, Orwell complained that people misuse the word.  So?  That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a meaning, nor that I'm misusing it.  Authoritarians that view one ethnic group as better than another.  Yeah, that's templars alright.

Are mages an ethnic group?

[TEWR]

They are.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They are.

Every definition I can find defines an ethnic group as a group with a common ancestral or cultural background.

Both of which can differ sharply between mages

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 février 2012 - 04:16 .

[General User]

Mages have no common heritage or ancestry (that we know of), no common language, or even a common culture. Only similar experiences in their respective societies.

I'd say that mages in "Andrastean" Thedas are a subculture.   A group distinct from others in, yet belonging to, a larger cultural whole.

Modifié par General User, 05 février 2012 - 04:26 .

[TEWR]

Hmmm... I've either called them a race of people all their own or an ethnic group and appropriately explained why they were what I called them.

I forget which one I called them in the past and I forget which thread it came up in.

Ah well...

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 04:55 .

[Cody]

Rifneno wrote...
 Combat technique wise?  Pretty much the same thing.

Not rly. Biotics can use their powers to create a "Singularity" (I use quotes cause it acts somewhat like a Singularity but rly isn't the same thing as one nor does it have the same out put like a singularity. Unlike the one shot out of the Blackstorm which IS a good representation of a singularity) and Biotics can use Warp attacks that utterly rip apart armor and biotic shields, and can use their powers to levitate or push themsevles up to high heights and to lower themselves down from high heights slowing down their fall if they jump off a high balcony or w/e. As seen in lair of the shadow broker. Plus they can use their biotics to empower the kinetic "bullets" shot out of their guns and can create 2 different types of barriers. And can use a a "charge" of sorts that allows them to travel through solid objects to a certain destination and can use their biotics to increase their strength some how(as seen by jack during her recruitment mission). So yea pretty different XD.

Anyway with that unnecessary nit-picking out of the way...

Rifneno wrote...
Hawke's terrible excuse for a mother

What makes her a terrible excuse of a mother? I mean yea she blames herself quite a bit for things that are not her fault and she did endanger her children when she came up with the idea for them to go to Kirkwall(a long ass trip to a city filled with templars) but other than that she was hardly a poor mother. Unless I missed something?

Modifié par CodyMelch, 05 février 2012 - 05:15 .

[General User]

Mages definitely are not a race. They can be human, elven, kossith, maybe even dwarven long ago.

[TEWR]

By that logic, African Americans aren't a race either because they're human just as Italians are human and Jewish people are human.

I found the thread I was talking about. Mages are their own race and their own ethnic group.

http://social.biowar...index/8403350/3

IanPolaris actually did a much better job of arguing why they are those things then I did. In fact, I didn't explain the position nearly as well as I thought I did.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 05:13 .

[Cody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

By that logic, African Americans aren't a race either because they're human just as Italians are human and Jewish people are human.

I found the thread I was talking about. Mages are their own race and their own ethnic group.

http://social.biowar...index/8403350/3

IanPolaris actually did a much better job of arguing why they are those things then I did.

They aren't a different race is why. The term racisim has been used so much that some people mistakenly believe africans and caucasians etc are seperate races. When they are not, they are Human. Just of a different Ethnic

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
By that logic, African Americans aren't a race either because they're human just as Italians are human and Jewish people are human.

It's true, scientifically speaking anyway, all human beings indeed belong to the same race: ****** sapiens.

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

By that logic, African Americans aren't a race either because they're human just as Italians are human and Jewish people are human.

Yes and the world would be a much better place if we could all get on board with this.

[Cody]

Mages would more or less fit in being a different Ethnic group. But not a race pers'e. Kinda like the Qun. How anyone under the Qun is Qunari. Even if they are an elf or human. I mean yea there is the Qunari race but still. There are 2 types. Mages are more or less like an ethnic group. Not a different race of their own.

[Cody]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

By that logic, African Americans aren't a race either because they're human just as Italians are human and Jewish people are human.

Yes and the world would be a much better place if we could all get on board with this.

I am sure he didn't mean anything by it. Just that by doing with our definition of "racism". How the mages are like a race of their own just like so many people irl think blacks and whites and asians etc are a different race. Or that by making fun of a certain ethnic group is racism even though they are humans like us. The term racism has been around for so long that it has stuck and kinda lost it's meaning to some extent.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 05 février 2012 - 05:24 .

[DPSSOC]

CodyMelch wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

By that logic, African Americans aren't a race either because they're human just as Italians are human and Jewish people are human.

Yes and the world would be a much better place if we could all get on board with this.

I am sure he didn't mean anything by it.

 
I know and I'm just fooling around.  Besides it's fun, on occassion, to be an over bearing ****** fiercely defending a moral highground nobody's assaulting, just like Fox. 

CodyMelch wrote...
Just that by doing with our definition of "racism". How the mages are like a race of their own just like so many people irl think blacks and whites and asians etc are a different race. Or that by making fun of a certain ethnic group is racism even though they are humans like us. The term racism has been around for so long that it has stuck and kinda lost it's meaning to some extent.

Yeah, when it comes to prejudices we're really not good with the language.

[TEWR]

Technically speaking, the definition of racism has never been settled upon.

While true all of humanity falls under the class of ****** sapiens and this is an all-encompassing name for our race, there are different sub-races -- at least for me. I'm trying not to make this sound douchey -- that we all fall into. As such, racism is in my mind appropriate for these when used accordingly.

So while discrimination against people with an African heritage is definitely a form of ethnical discrimination, it's also a form of racism imo.

Race is defined as a classification system used to categorize humans into distinct groups based on ethnicity, geographic ancestry, appearance, phenotypic characteristics, and a few other things. So African people do fall under their own race, but it's influenced by their own ethnic culture.

Indeed, the world would be a much better place if we got rid of the notion that one race is superior to another and we could all just be equal. It would also be a much better place if people would stop playing the race card when it isn't appropriate, which I saw too often back in my home town of Wilmington.

But alas, this is neither here nor there. At the very least, mages fall under an ethnic category. In my mind though, they will always be their own race.

I get the feeling what I said is either a load of bull**** or filled with redundant redundancy. Or both.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 05:37 .

[Cody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Technically speaking, the definition of racism has never been settled upon.

While true all of humanity falls under the class of ****** sapiens and this is an all-encompassing name for our race, there are different sub-races -- at least for me. I'm trying not to make this sound douchey -- that we all fall into. As such, racism is in my mind appropriate for these when used accordingly.

So while discrimination against people with an African heritage is definitely a form of ethnical discrimination, it's also a form of racism imo.

Race is defined as a classification system used to categorize humans into distinct groups based on ethnicity, geographic ancestry, appearance, phenotypic characteristics, and a few other things. So African people do fall under their own race, but it's influenced by their own ethnic culture.

Indeed, the world would be a much better place if we got rid of the notion that one race is superior to another and we could all just be equal. It would also be a much better place if people would stop playing the race card when it isn't appropriate, which I saw too often back in my home town of Wilmington.

But alas, this is neither here nor there. At the very least, mages fall under an ethnic category. In my mind though, they will always be their own race.

I get the feeling what I said is either a load of bull**** or filled with redundant redundancy. Or both.

Nah what you said was fine. I never thought of it that way tbh.

[GavrielKay]

Debating the labels is really beside the point. The mages are persecuted due to an accident of birth. From the game it appears they can be born to any parents of any species except dwarf. They may come from any background, but within Chantry dominated areas, they are rounded up and treated as a group.

[General User]

On the contrary labels are very important in this case. Labeling Mages as a separate race or ethnic group implies that mages are subjected to oppressive conditions without cause (or at least without good cause). And whether the Templar/Circle system was the best way of doing so or not, the fact is it did exist for a very good reason: to protect the general public from bloodmages and abominations.

[GavrielKay]

General User wrote...
On the contrary labels are very important in this case. Labeling Mages as a separate race or ethnic group implies that mages are subjected to oppressive conditions without cause (or at least without good cause). And whether the Templar/Circle system was the best way of doing so or not, the fact is it did exist for a very good reason: to protect the general public from bloodmages and abominations.

That's where the labels matter least.  If you need the label to make you feel better or worse about the situation, it's already lost.  Regardless of whether you slap the label "racism" on it, treating people differently because of how they are born should be scrutinized closely. 

I think the circle makes mages more dangerous.  It takes away any connection to community and family which would give them a reason to keep control and use their powers for good.  Locking them away and treating them like criminals will only encourage them to become criminals.

If the circle system truly was the only way to protect people from mages, the Dalish, Rivaini and Chasind would have been wiped out ages ago.  Tevinter as well.

Mages should be trained, but not ciminalized.

[Cody]

General User wrote...

On the contrary labels are very important in this case. Labeling Mages as a separate race or ethnic group implies that mages are subjected to oppressive conditions without cause (or at least without good cause). And whether the Templar/Circle system was the best way of doing so or not, the fact is it did exist for a very good reason: to protect the general public from bloodmages and abominations.

And to protect the mages from that as well and to Teach them how to control their magic. Still the way the templars do it a lot of the time goes to far. They have too much power. There was an incident similar to this...a study that went on...i forget what it was called...a movie was made from it too. It involved an experiement where subjects were prisoners and the other subjects were their guards and wardens etc. They had full control over the "prisoners". It went too far in the end where the prisoners were being treated horribley while the "guards" were acting like monsters. Again I forget what it was. I'll have to look for it.

But my point is that the templars and mage system for the circle is the same thing. To give the templars so much power over other living beings can go wrong so easily. It needs to change.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 05 février 2012 - 11:10 .

[General User]

CodyMelch wrote...
And to protect the mages from that as well and to each them how to control their magic. Still the way the templars do it a lot of the time goes to far. They ahve too much power. There was an incident similar to this...a study that went on...i forget what it was called...a movie was made from it too. It involved an experiement where subjects were prisoners and the other subjects were their guards and wardens etc. They had full control over the "prisoners". It went to far in the end where the prisoners were being treated horribley while the "guards" were acting like monsters. Again I forget what it was. I'll have to look for it.

But my point is that the templars and mage system for the circle is the same thing. To give the templars so much power over other living beings can go wrong so easily. It needs to change.

No arguement here.  And it was the Stanford Prison Experiment.

GavrielKay wrote...
That's where the labels matter least.  If you need the label to make you feel better or worse about the situation, it's already lost.  Regardless of whether you slap the label "racism" on it, treating people differently because of how they are born should be scrutinized closely.

I think the circle makes mages more dangerous.  It takes away any connection to community and family which would give them a reason to keep control and use their powers for good.  Locking them away and treating them like criminals will only encourage them to become criminals.

If the circle system truly was the only way to protect people from mages, the Dalish, Rivaini and Chasind would have been wiped out ages ago.  Tevinter as well.

Mages should be trained, but not ciminalized.

I'm right there with 'ya.  I'm just sayin' hyperbole and demonizing the other side isn't a help to anyone.