2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

GavrielKay wrote...

General User wrote...
On the contrary labels are very important in this case. Labeling Mages as a separate race or ethnic group implies that mages are subjected to oppressive conditions without cause (or at least without good cause). And whether the Templar/Circle system was the best way of doing so or not, the fact is it did exist for a very good reason: to protect the general public from bloodmages and abominations.

That's where the labels matter least.  If you need the label to make you feel better or worse about the situation, it's already lost.  Regardless of whether you slap the label "racism" on it, treating people differently because of how they are born should be scrutinized closely. 

I think the circle makes mages more dangerous.  It takes away any connection to community and family which would give them a reason to keep control and use their powers for good.  Locking them away and treating them like criminals will only encourage them to become criminals.

If the circle system truly was the only way to protect people from mages, the Dalish, Rivaini and Chasind would have been wiped out ages ago.  Tevinter as well.

Mages should be trained, but not ciminalized.

What do the Chasind do with their mages?

Tervinter isn't really the best example to use is it?  It's filled with mages abusing their power to rule over the rest of the population.  In fact the Circles supposedly exist in part to prevent this from happening in the rest of Thedas.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 février 2012 - 07:34 .

[GavrielKay]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Tervinter isn't really the best example to use is it?  It's filled with mages abusing their power to rule over the rest of the population.  In fact the Circles supposedly exist in part to prevent this from happening in the rest of Thedas.

Tevinter is ruled by mages, not abominations.  My point was that the Chantry's claim that mages have to be locked up to keep them from destroying the world after being possessed by demons doesn't seem to be true.

How mages are treated and what environment they are raised in appears to affect them in much the same way a non-mage would be.  If they are treated with respect (as in Dalish, Rivaini and Chasind cultures apparently) they will be mostly normal people contributing to their society.  If they grow up in Tevinter, they either adapt to the power struggle or get used up by it.  The way they are treated among the Qunari causes them to be unwilling to even live outside their bonds - as in Sheperding Wolves.

Now take the circles:
1)  Some folks are scared to turn their mage children over to the circles, leading to devastating accidents.  See Meredith's sister and Connor.

2)  Mages are told they are cursed and too dangerous to be free, leading to suicides and depression among mages.  A resource so valuable in war time should not be wasted this way.

3)  Some mages chafe so badly under this authoritarian rule that they promote violent uprisings.  See Uldred and even Anders.

The Chantry and circles may make people feel safer, but it doesn't seem to actually protect them at all.

[Rifneno]

CodyMelch wrote...

Not rly. Biotics can use their powers to create a "Singularity" (I use quotes cause it acts somewhat like a Singularity but rly isn't the same thing as one nor does it have the same out put like a singularity. Unlike the one shot out of the Blackstorm which IS a good representation of a singularity) and Biotics can use Warp attacks that utterly rip apart armor and biotic shields, and can use their powers to levitate or push themsevles up to high heights and to lower themselves down from high heights slowing down their fall if they jump off a high balcony or w/e. As seen in lair of the shadow broker. Plus they can use their biotics to empower the kinetic "bullets" shot out of their guns and can create 2 different types of barriers. And can use a a "charge" of sorts that allows them to travel through solid objects to a certain destination and can use their biotics to increase their strength some how(as seen by jack during her recruitment mission). So yea pretty different XD.

Well ME's combat system is pretty different from DA's. I meant they're similar in both having weight and gravity based abilities. Compare singularity to pull of the abyss or gravitic ring. The former is significantly more powerful but they're similar in concept. Telekinetic burst? Pretty much how Jack or Samara ends the long walk at the collector base. Again ME's version if significantly more powerful (which I suppose makes sense, since they have to combat aliens with advanced firearms, not crazy people with swords) but the principle is the same.

What makes her a terrible excuse of a mother? I mean yea she blames herself quite a bit for things that are not her fault and she did endanger her children when she came up with the idea for them to go to Kirkwall(a long ass trip to a city filled with templars) but other than that she was hardly a poor mother. Unless I missed something?

Just considering going to Kirkwall with a mage was facepalmy. But what really made me want to beat her into a coma with the cluestick was when she blamed Hawke for Bethany or Carver getting killed by the ogre. What the **** kind of mother does that?! Even if it were true, which it wasn't, that's the kind of thing that can screw somebody up for life.

[TEWR]

Just considering going to Kirkwall with a mage was facepalmy.

To be fair, she thought they still had an estate and the money to go with it which would've ensured immunity from the Templars. So I actually give her props for wanting to go to Kirkwall where her children would be safe from Templars, if they actually still had the money.

It isn't until they actually get there that she finds out Gamlen squandered it all away on sex, bad investments, gambling, and who knows what else.

And considering how she could barely run away from the Darkspawn, running any further would've probably given her a heartattack.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 08:32 .

[esper]

Rifneno wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Not rly. Biotics can use their powers to create a "Singularity" (I use quotes cause it acts somewhat like a Singularity but rly isn't the same thing as one nor does it have the same out put like a singularity. Unlike the one shot out of the Blackstorm which IS a good representation of a singularity) and Biotics can use Warp attacks that utterly rip apart armor and biotic shields, and can use their powers to levitate or push themsevles up to high heights and to lower themselves down from high heights slowing down their fall if they jump off a high balcony or w/e. As seen in lair of the shadow broker. Plus they can use their biotics to empower the kinetic "bullets" shot out of their guns and can create 2 different types of barriers. And can use a a "charge" of sorts that allows them to travel through solid objects to a certain destination and can use their biotics to increase their strength some how(as seen by jack during her recruitment mission). So yea pretty different XD.

Well ME's combat system is pretty different from DA's. I meant they're similar in both having weight and gravity based abilities. Compare singularity to pull of the abyss or gravitic ring. The former is significantly more powerful but they're similar in concept. Telekinetic burst? Pretty much how Jack or Samara ends the long walk at the collector base. Again ME's version if significantly more powerful (which I suppose makes sense, since they have to combat aliens with advanced firearms, not crazy people with swords) but the principle is the same.

What makes her a terrible excuse of a mother? I mean yea she blames herself quite a bit for things that are not her fault and she did endanger her children when she came up with the idea for them to go to Kirkwall(a long ass trip to a city filled with templars) but other than that she was hardly a poor mother. Unless I missed something?

Just considering going to Kirkwall with a mage was facepalmy. But what really made me want to beat her into a coma with the cluestick was when she blamed Hawke for Bethany or Carver getting killed by the ogre. What the **** kind of mother does that?! Even if it were true, which it wasn't, that's the kind of thing that can screw somebody up for life.

About the last thing. A lot of people do that in the heat of the moment when they are emotionally distressed. She was simply lashing out and does admit in act 1 that it was wrong of her.

[Heimdall]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Tervinter isn't really the best example to use is it?  It's filled with mages abusing their power to rule over the rest of the population.  In fact the Circles supposedly exist in part to prevent this from happening in the rest of Thedas.

Tevinter is ruled by mages, not abominations.  My point was that the Chantry's claim that mages have to be locked up to keep them from destroying the world after being possessed by demons doesn't seem to be true.

But that isn't their claim.

Abominations are part of the danger but keeping another Imperium from rising up is an equal concern to the chantry.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 février 2012 - 08:35 .

[Rifneno]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Abominations are part of the danger but keeping another Imperium from rising up is an equal concern to the chantry.

Then they epic failed.  Because they didn't just prevent another Imperium, they created one.

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Abominations are part of the danger but keeping another Imperium from rising up is an equal concern to the chantry.

Then they epic failed.  Because they didn't just prevent another Imperium, they created one.

I don't see mages ruling over the rest of the population and using slaves to fuel blood magic rituals and generally treating the majority of the population like property.

[GavrielKay]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Abominations are part of the danger but keeping another Imperium from rising up is an equal concern to the chantry.

Then they epic failed.  Because they didn't just prevent another Imperium, they created one.

I don't see mages ruling over the rest of the population and using slaves to fuel blood magic rituals and generally treating the majority of the population like property.

Err, no, instead the Chantry is treating the mages like that.  And the nobles are treating the peasants like that.

Blood magic and mages may be fun boogeymen to point at, but regular people can be pretty talented about finding ways to oppress each other as well.

Replacing the violent rule of mages with oppressive and backwards rule of the Chantry isn't a huge leap forward.

[Heimdall]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Abominations are part of the danger but keeping another Imperium from rising up is an equal concern to the chantry.

Then they epic failed.  Because they didn't just prevent another Imperium, they created one.

I don't see mages ruling over the rest of the population and using slaves to fuel blood magic rituals and generally treating the majority of the population like property.

Err, no, instead the Chantry is treating the mages like that.  And the nobles are treating the peasants like that.

Blood magic and mages may be fun boogeymen to point at, but regular people can be pretty talented about finding ways to oppress each other as well.

Replacing the violent rule of mages with oppressive and backwards rule of the Chantry isn't a huge leap forward.

It's not, but the rule of the nobles and the chantry is hardly backwards in comparison.  In fact I'd call it a step forward, a very small one.

[Gervaise]

Orlais is another imperial governmet where one section of the population rules over the rest by "divine right" and generally treats them like dirt. Even the chantry scholars admit that calling them servants is a convenient way of pretending they are better than Tevinter. The myth of the Circle is that it controls all mages. In fact the only ones really kept under control are the children of peasants who might otherwise help their felllow citizens rise up against the ruling aristocracy. The children of nobles can either be kept out of the Circle altogether via bribes or if they enter it, they get preferential treatment - such as keeping contract with their families, having hand picked templars to look after them and being "helped" into positions of authority. The Circle in Cumberland was based in a marble palace because some noble couldn't bear the thought of their offspring slumming it and one Orlesian First Enchanter was able to "retire" to their father's country estate. Lord Prosper was able to invite Bethany to his country party and of course mages seem to have been used as "entertainment" at noble's parties.

From all this it is quite clear that if mages were as dangerous as propaganda proclaims, these nobles would be running enormous risks, which they clearly weren't. The other reason that the Circles didn't work is that really dangerous or ambitious mages either never go there in the first place or find ways of escaping and are not recaptured.

I agree with the idea that if mages were allowed to remain in their communities, they would have a vested interest in looking after those communities and preventing abuses of power by mages and non mages. The reason that doesn't happen in Tevinter is because the mages are the nobility and the mage children of the lower classes are removed into their own version of the Circle.

[Rifneno]

I always love the "it's more evil because it's magic" argument. Somehow though, I doubt the same people would be in agreement if I said it'd be fun to go Vlad the Impaler on the Chantry.

[GavrielKay]

Lord Aesir wrote...
It's not, but the rule of the nobles and the chantry is hardly backwards in comparison.  In fact I'd call it a step forward, a very small one.

The mages of current Thedas are not the ones who performed ritual slave sacrifices but they are still being locked up for the crimes of people many generations ago.

It is a bit morally bankrupt to claim the divine mandate to make 900 years worth of mages suffer in order to take a "very small step forward."  Especially with no real evidence that current mages would have any desire to recreate the Tevinter empire of old.

[Heimdall]

Gervaise wrote...

I agree with the idea that if mages were allowed to remain in their communities, they would have a vested interest in looking after those communities and preventing abuses of power by mages and non mages. The reason that doesn't happen in Tevinter is because the mages are the nobility and the mage children of the lower classes are removed into their own version of the Circle.

I find this a bit overly idealistic.  Just because a mage lives in a community doesn't mean they will develope a vested interest.  In fact I'd argue that the sort of power a mage commands is hazardous to their mental health on principle.  I'm not talking about the Fade.  I'm saying that someone who can set people on fire with their mind runs a great risk of suffering a sort of moral decay due to having that kind of power.  Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely as the old quote goes.  That's actually the second reason the Circles were founded in the first place, to teach mages and bring them up in an environment where they have no reason to feel they are superior beings.

Noy saying the Circles are a great or not corrupt system, but they do have their redeemable components.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 février 2012 - 10:01 .

[Heimdall]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
It's not, but the rule of the nobles and the chantry is hardly backwards in comparison.  In fact I'd call it a step forward, a very small one.

The mages of current Thedas are not the ones who performed ritual slave sacrifices but they are still being locked up for the crimes of people many generations ago.

It is a bit morally bankrupt to claim the divine mandate to make 900 years worth of mages suffer in order to take a "very small step forward."  Especially with no real evidence that current mages would have any desire to recreate the Tevinter empire of old.

I never said it was moral, only that it was a step up from flippant mass human sacrifice.

[GavrielKay]

Gervaise wrote...
I agree with the idea that if mages were allowed to remain in their communities, they would have a vested interest in looking after those communities and preventing abuses of power by mages and non mages. The reason that doesn't happen in Tevinter is because the mages are the nobility and the mage children of the lower classes are removed into their own version of the Circle.

Yeah, Tevinter is a completely lousy place for almost everyone.  Normal folks get abused and enslaved, but even the mages are either strong enough to get to spend their whole lives vigilant against challengers or too weak to even get that far in life.

Growing up in a place where that was the norm would definitely mess with someone's mind.

[GavrielKay]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I never said it was moral, only that it was a step up from flippant mass human sacrifice.

But there's such a huge difference between mages saying "we'd like to live and love without religious zealots glaring at us" and saying "we'd like to find out just how much blood can be spilled before the veil is gone."

900 years is a long time to point at Tevinter and say, "ha, you'll never do that to us again!"

Modifié par GavrielKay, 06 février 2012 - 02:14 .

[Rifneno]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I never said it was moral, only that it was a step up from flippant mass human sacrifice.

The only difference between mass human sacrifice and the Right of Annulment is the motivation of the murderer.  Which matters little.  The dead don't care "why".

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I never said it was moral, only that it was a step up from flippant mass human sacrifice.

The only difference between mass human sacrifice and the Right of Annulment is the motivation of the murderer.  Which matters little.  The dead don't care "why".

I disagree that motivation doesn't matter.  But in these cases, the motives are all bad.  Blind pursuit of power on one side and blind religious zealotry on the other.

[General User]

Do you really think motivation doesn't matter?

What if someone or some group did something terrible out of a desire to do good?

Modifié par General User, 05 février 2012 - 10:25 .

[PrinceLionheart]

General User wrote...

Do you really think motivation doesn't matter?

What if someone or some group did something terrible out of a desire to do good?

Depends on whether "It was for the greater good" speech comes off as halfassed.

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...

I disagree that motivation doesn't matter.  But in these cases, the motives are all bad.  Blind pursuit of power on one side and blind religious zealotry on the other.

HOooooooold on for a second there.  The Rite of Annulement isn't kept on the table because of blind religious zealotry, if it was then it would have been called for a heck of a lot more times then it acutally has.  The Rite of Annulment is kept on the table in cases where the mages in a Circle presents a danger to the outside world as a whole.  For instance, if Uldred had succeeded and either turned or killed all the mages in the tower.

If it was about blind religious zealotry it wouldn't be a Rite.  They'd have another Exhalted March and have it be done with.

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I never said it was moral, only that it was a step up from flippant mass human sacrifice.

The only difference between mass human sacrifice and the Right of Annulment is the motivation of the murderer.  Which matters little.  The dead don't care "why".

I disagree.  The Right is very rarely invoked and usually only for situations like the Uldred fiasco in Origins.  The Tervinter magisters sacrificed slaves every day when they feel a little worn out for spells.

[DPSSOC]

Gervaise wrote...
I agree with the idea that if mages were allowed to remain in their communities, they would have a vested interest in looking after those communities and preventing abuses of power by mages and non mages.

 
I kind of doubt this.  It's not because all mages are power hungry monsters, they are but so is everyone else, it's just that most communities don't have much to offer a mage.  Let's face it if we don't want to have a bunch of half trained mages running around doing Maker knows what by accident they're going to have to be instructed in the use of magic.  How many of them, after years as an academic, would find anything of value in a remote village?

Imagine you have all the power mages have, you've spent years learning to master it, they send you home, and your employment options are farmer, blacksmith, merchant, etc.  Most mages aren't going to be satisfied with mundane life and their either going to leave or develope a great deal of resentment for their community.

GavrielKay wrote...
900 years is a long time to point at Tevinter and say, "ha, you'll never do that to us again!"

I don't know considering the mage oppression of Tevinter was going on for 1,000 plus years before the rebellion, and only had a 300 year gap when the Chantry was founded I think they've still got some time left on it, especially considering that the tyranny of the magisters never ended.  If things had changed once the magisters regained their power I'd have agreed with you, but as it stands I can understand why the general populace points at Tevinter and says, "Never again."

[Xilizhra]

If things had changed once the magisters regained their power I'd have agreed with you, but as it stands I can understand why the general populace points at Tevinter and says, "Never again."

And yet, in the end, the important parts of Tevinter have happened again. And again, and again, and again...