2008 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

DPSSOC wrote...

Gervaise wrote...
I agree with the idea that if mages were allowed to remain in their communities, they would have a vested interest in looking after those communities and preventing abuses of power by mages and non mages.

 
I kind of doubt this.  It's not because all mages are power hungry monsters, they are but so is everyone else, it's just that most communities don't have much to offer a mage.  Let's face it if we don't want to have a bunch of half trained mages running around doing Maker knows what by accident they're going to have to be instructed in the use of magic.  How many of them, after years as an academic, would find anything of value in a remote village?

Imagine you have all the power mages have, you've spent years learning to master it, they send you home, and your employment options are farmer, blacksmith, merchant, etc.  Most mages aren't going to be satisfied with mundane life and their either going to leave or develope a great deal of resentment for their community.

I'm of the mind that mages are people just like anyone else.  And just like anyone else, if they have power they will be inclined to abuse it. 

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

If things had changed once the magisters regained their power I'd have agreed with you, but as it stands I can understand why the general populace points at Tevinter and says, "Never again."

And yet, in the end, the important parts of Tevinter have happened again. And again, and again, and again...

Yes, because the circle system effectively became meaningless in Tervinter they have become the same as the old imperium.  Unless you are trying to imply something else.

[Xilizhra]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If things had changed once the magisters regained their power I'd have agreed with you, but as it stands I can understand why the general populace points at Tevinter and says, "Never again."

And yet, in the end, the important parts of Tevinter have happened again. And again, and again, and again...

Yes, because the circle system effectively became meaningless in Tervinter they have become the same as the old imperium.  Unless you are trying to imply something else.

Noble-run oppression. It's everywhere, nearly.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If things had changed once the magisters regained their power I'd have agreed with you, but as it stands I can understand why the general populace points at Tevinter and says, "Never again."

And yet, in the end, the important parts of Tevinter have happened again. And again, and again, and again...

Yes, because the circle system effectively became meaningless in Tervinter they have become the same as the old imperium.  Unless you are trying to imply something else.

Noble-run oppression. It's everywhere, nearly.

It's much better than Blood Mage-run oppression though

[Xilizhra]

Not really.

[General User]

I'd say which is better depends on whether you are a noble or a bloodmage.

[Xilizhra]

Well, I am a blood mage, but I don't oppress anyone.

[General User]

I was a noble, I didn't oppress anyone either. Actually in DA2 I was both at the same time.

[Xilizhra]

Can we agree that both forms of oppression are bad?

[General User]

I'll do you one better... I'll say ALL forms of oppression are bad!

[Xilizhra]

Thus showing that trying to stop another Tevinter from risking didn't help much when Orlais just rose instead.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
I kind of doubt this.  It's not because all mages are power hungry monsters, they are but so is everyone else, it's just that most communities don't have much to offer a mage.  Let's face it if we don't want to have a bunch of half trained mages running around doing Maker knows what by accident they're going to have to be instructed in the use of magic.  How many of them, after years as an academic, would find anything of value in a remote village?

Imagine you have all the power mages have, you've spent years learning to master it, they send you home, and your employment options are farmer, blacksmith, merchant, etc.  Most mages aren't going to be satisfied with mundane life and their either going to leave or develope a great deal of resentment for their community.

No one said they had to go be farmers and merchants when they completed their training.  It's only that they should be able to choose.  If their family has long run a farm, perhaps they would want to go back.  Or perhaps they'd rather set up shop as a healer or bodyguard or whatever else.

I don't see that there would be more resentment in getting to choose their life than in being stuck in a circle.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Thus showing that trying to stop another Tevinter from risking didn't help much when Orlais just rose instead.

Ferelden and the Free Marches seemed to come out  the better for it.

[GavrielKay]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Thus showing that trying to stop another Tevinter from risking didn't help much when Orlais just rose instead.

Ferelden and the Free Marches seemed to come out  the better for it.

Sure.  And defeating the main strength of the Imperium seems like a very good thing.

But, I still don't get why normals oppressing mages is better than the reverse.  Or why mages are somehow automatically less innocent than non-mages.

The circle system as written in the DA series is basically about a religious order saying it's better for thousands of mages to die in captivity than for a few mages here and there to take out a village.  Numbers wise, this doesn't add up.

[General User]

GavrielKay wrote...
Sure.  And defeating the main strength of the Imperium seems like a very good thing.

A very good thing indeed.

GavrielKay wrote...
But, I still don't get why normals oppressing mages is better than the reverse. 

Depends on whether you're a 'normal' or a mage.  And most people are 'normals'.

GavrielKay wrote...
Or why mages are somehow automatically less innocent than non-mages.

Mages are the exact same amount of innocent as non-mages.  They're just more dangerous.

GavrielKay wrote...
The circle system as written in the DA series is basically about a religious order saying it's better for thousands of mages to die in captivity than for a few mages here and there to take out a village.  Numbers wise, this doesn't add up.

They do if you're a villager.

[DPSSOC]

GavrielKay wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I kind of doubt this.  It's not because all mages are power hungry monsters, they are but so is everyone else, it's just that most communities don't have much to offer a mage.  Let's face it if we don't want to have a bunch of half trained mages running around doing Maker knows what by accident they're going to have to be instructed in the use of magic.  How many of them, after years as an academic, would find anything of value in a remote village?

Imagine you have all the power mages have, you've spent years learning to master it, they send you home, and your employment options are farmer, blacksmith, merchant, etc.  Most mages aren't going to be satisfied with mundane life and their either going to leave or develope a great deal of resentment for their community.

No one said they had to go be farmers and merchants when they completed their training.  It's only that they should be able to choose.  If their family has long run a farm, perhaps they would want to go back.  Or perhaps they'd rather set up shop as a healer or bodyguard or whatever else.

That's the thing though, your average Thedas village or town isn't going to have much need for one mage, the Circles house hundreds a piece.  Even major population centres will have a limit on the number of mages they can realistically find a use for.  So the remaineder, from hundreds upon hundreds of mages, have three options if they want to make a living; take up a mundane trade, join the army/militia/mercenary band, or go back to the Circle.  It's similar to university students IRL, many of them don't find jobs in their own fields.  They're forced to work jobs well below their qualifications because they need to make a living.  These people, generally, aren't happy; they get no satisfaction out of their lives.  Now imagine if these unhappy people had the power to bend creation?

I think that's something we forget when we look at the Dalish, or the Chasind, or the Seers of Rivain; there aren't that many of them.  It's easy for mages to live free, and happy, and fullfilled lives when they don't really have to compete for it.

[Xilizhra]

Depends on whether you're a 'normal' or a mage. And most people are 'normals'.

Ultimately irrelevant in a moral sense.

I think that's something we forget when we look at the Dalish, or the Chasind, or the Seers of Rivain; there aren't that many of them. It's easy for mages to live free, and happy, and fullfilled lives when they don't really have to compete for it.

The only way this is relevant is if proportionally fewer mages are born to all of them than there are elsewhere.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 février 2012 - 02:51 .

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not really.

Human Sacrifices + Slavery < No Human Sacrifices + Feudalism

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that's something we forget when we look at the Dalish, or the Chasind, or the Seers of Rivain; there aren't that many of them. It's easy for mages to live free, and happy, and fullfilled lives when they don't really have to compete for it.

The only way this is relevant is if proportionally fewer mages are born to all of them than there are elsewhere.

Well that's what I meant, should have been clearer.  I at least get the impression that there aren't many mages among those cultures.  I mean Merril's clan had 2 mages and they had to import one of them, that's the feel I get from the game.  Maybe fewer are born, maybe they have their own form of the harrowing that has a higher mortality rate, maybe they battle to the death for their positions I don't know.

[Xilizhra]

I think you're overestimating mage proportions elsewhere, especially since you have no population data on Chasind or Rivain.

Human Sacrifices + Slavery < No Human Sacrifices + Feudalism

Feudalism often isn't that much better than slavery, and can be just as bad.

[General User]

And it can be significantly better. Do Ferelden and the Free Marches even have serfdom?

[CrimsonZephyr]

General User wrote...

And it can be significantly better. Do Ferelden and the Free Marches even have serfdom?

Ferelden actually seems like it has moved away from serfdom and feudalism as we know it. The elves of Denerim, for example, live in a ghetto, not on private estates and while their opportunities are much less, they seem to perform only paid work when work is found. Not to mention the fact that their major population centers seem to be cities, rather than castles, and the Landsmeet resembles early Parliament, rather than the early Anglo-Saxon Witangamot because they apparently meet every year and the King explicitly rules with their pleasure, rather than the assembly simply choosing a new dynasty.

[Xilizhra]

I was mostly referring to Orlais, and counting on the Free Marches for anything seems like a bad idea. After all, it has Kirkwall, City of Unending Evil.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that's something we forget when we look at the Dalish, or the Chasind, or the Seers of Rivain; there aren't that many of them. It's easy for mages to live free, and happy, and fullfilled lives when they don't really have to compete for it.

The only way this is relevant is if proportionally fewer mages are born to all of them than there are elsewhere.

Well that's what I meant, should have been clearer.  I at least get the impression that there aren't many mages among those cultures.  I mean Merril's clan had 2 mages and they had to import one of them, that's the feel I get from the game.  Maybe fewer are born, maybe they have their own form of the harrowing that has a higher mortality rate, maybe they battle to the death for their positions I don't know.

Let's not forget that it isn't unheard of for templars to kidnap mages from Dalish clans when the opportunity presents itself.

[General User]

Parliaments are not a step away from feudalism, but a component of it that has since been adapted/adopted by representative democracies.

I believe the actual word 'Parlaiment' originates with William the Conqueror somethime around 1066, though I can't quite remember.

Modifié par General User, 06 février 2012 - 03:19 .