2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you're overestimating mage proportions elsewhere, especially since you have no population data on Chasind or Rivain.

Human Sacrifices + Slavery < No Human Sacrifices + Feudalism

Feudalism often isn't that much better than slavery, and can be just as bad.

It's a mutually beneficial system, taxes in exchange for protection.from bandits and invading armies, and a castle to hide in when the latter arrives.

In theory anyway.

It's questionable to what extent feudalism is actually practiced in Thedas anyhow.

[Xilizhra]

Pff. You can say the same for slavery, being work in exchange for food and suchlike. They're both bad.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Pff. You can say the same for slavery, being work in exchange for food and suchlike. They're both bad.

Like I said

In theory

[Xilizhra]

Since theory isn't reality, I'm unsure why you brought it up.

[bluewolv1970]

Anders is worse. He blew up a church killing not only everyone inside but likely anyone outside in hightown. Oh and he killed probably one of the only few reasonable people in Kirkwall - If he was sucha a rebel why not have the balls to kill Meredith...Anders is pathetic

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Meredith wouldn't have served his cause and as well as killing Elthina. It might have even made the situation in Kirkwall better. He didn't want it better, he wanted chaos so that the mages would be forced to fight or die. The type of person that Elthina was is irrelevant to Anders. He murdered her in the hopes that it would provoke the Templars into killing all the mages in order to start a rebellion.

[Plaintiff]

Elthina was a lazy, cowardly ****. Who cares?

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Since theory isn't reality, I'm unsure why you brought it up.

Because sometimes it is, and ehen those in power don't abuse their privelege feudalism is in fact better than slavery

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Pff. You can say the same for slavery, being work in exchange for food and suchlike. They're both bad.

Well you've already acknowledged that fuedelism isn't that much better then slavery and that it can be just as bad.  So doesn't that make fuedlism already better then slavery? 

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina was a lazy, cowardly ****. Who cares?

50% to 75% of the citizens of Kirkwall.  Which is another problem with blowing up the chantry.  It may force the mages to rebel, but it alienates the circle mages from a society that is primarily Andrastean.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina was a lazy, cowardly ****. Who cares?

50% to 75% of the citizens of Kirkwall.  Which is another problem with blowing up the chantry.  It may force the mages to rebel, but it alienates the circle mages from a society that is primarily Andrastean.

Because the circle mages were never alienated from society before now, right?

[RazorrX]

Elthina is a prime example of the chantry not having proper oversite. She was too old and too weak to have remained in that position given the way the Templars were basically running the show. She should have been retired and a younger and stronger willed woman put in her place. Merideth should have been brought to heel well before she got mr happy sword.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

Because the circle mages were never alienated from society before now, right?

There's a difference between "I am suspicious of magic." and "I know damn well that mages blew up the Grand Cleric."  One is a feeling one gets and the other is a verifiable fact.  Whether circle mages supported Anders' decision or not, a lot of them are going to be considered guilty by association.  So unless mages want to bump off the random villages and townspeople walking around a lot of them are going to have their movements reported on to the Templars.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Elthina was a lazy, cowardly ****. Who cares?

50% to 75% of the citizens of Kirkwall.  Which is another problem with blowing up the chantry.  It may force the mages to rebel, but it alienates the circle mages from a society that is primarily Andrastean.

I think a second purpose could be imagined for Anders' bomb as well.  With all the mages locked up or hiding, the Chantry and Templars have no opposition in saying that the mages are happier where they are and all is well.  All the non-mages can live in little bubbles where they get to feel safe from mages with little guilt.

Anders' bomb rips away whatever illusion the populace might have had.  It is hard to think of the mages all happy in their towers when one of them is so desperate that he blows up a church. 

A simple assassination of an old woman (Elthina) would be too quiet and easy to cover up to serve that purpose.  Even setting off his explosion in the Gallows wouldn't really work for that goal, because the people are already being told that mages are dangerous and again it could be covered up and blamed on an accident or something.

[Heimdall]

RazorrX wrote...

Elthina is a prime example of the chantry not having proper oversite. She was too old and too weak to have remained in that position given the way the Templars were basically running the show. She should have been retired and a younger and stronger willed woman put in her place. Merideth should have been brought to heel well before she got mr happy sword.

Asunder shows us that the chantry's authority over the templars is far from absolute.

I've written long posts about how Elthina couldn't have done more without endangering the people of Kirkwall but I'm not going to retread that debate here.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because the circle mages were never alienated from society before now, right?

There's a difference between "I am suspicious of magic." and "I know damn well that mages blew up the Grand Cleric."  One is a feeling one gets and the other is a verifiable fact.  Whether circle mages supported Anders' decision or not, a lot of them are going to be considered guilty by association.  So unless mages want to bump off the random villages and townspeople walking around a lot of them are going to have their movements reported on to the Templars.

Circle mages are already considered "guilty" by the mere fact of their existence. Regular citizens tattle on them already. Public opinion is already so incredibly biased against them because of the chantry that blowing it up makes next to no difference in that regard.

What the normal population is taught and believes about mages goes well beyond suspicion. The chantry tells them in no uncertain terms that the mages are directly responsible for everything bad that ever happened anywhere ever.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 février 2012 - 04:30 .

[Heimdall]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Elthina was a lazy, cowardly ****. Who cares?

50% to 75% of the citizens of Kirkwall.  Which is another problem with blowing up the chantry.  It may force the mages to rebel, but it alienates the circle mages from a society that is primarily Andrastean.

I think a second purpose could be imagined for Anders' bomb as well.  With all the mages locked up or hiding, the Chantry and Templars have no opposition in saying that the mages are happier where they are and all is well.  All the non-mages can live in little bubbles where they get to feel safe from mages with little guilt.

Anders' bomb rips away whatever illusion the populace might have had.  It is hard to think of the mages all happy in their towers when one of them is so desperate that he blows up a church. 

A simple assassination of an old woman (Elthina) would be too quiet and easy to cover up to serve that purpose.  Even setting off his explosion in the Gallows wouldn't really work for that goal, because the people are already being told that mages are dangerous and again it could be covered up and blamed on an accident or something.

It probably made them think of mages' evil, not suffering victims,  Elthina was well loved by the people, killing her doesn't strip away the image of happy mages, it only replaces it with malicious caricatures.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because the circle mages were never alienated from society before now, right?

There's a difference between "I am suspicious of magic." and "I know damn well that mages blew up the Grand Cleric."  One is a feeling one gets and the other is a verifiable fact.  Whether circle mages supported Anders' decision or not, a lot of them are going to be considered guilty by association.  So unless mages want to bump off the random villages and townspeople walking around a lot of them are going to have their movements reported on to the Templars.

Circle mages are already considered "guilty" by the mere fact of their existence. Regular citizens tattle on them already. Public opinion is already so incredibly biased against them because of the chantry that blowing it up makes next to no difference in that regard.

What the normal population is taught and believes about mages goes well beyond suspicion. The chantry tells them in no uncertain terms that the mages are directly responsible for everything bad that ever happened anywhere ever.

That's drastic hyperbole

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...

I think a second purpose could be imagined for Anders' bomb as well.  With all the mages locked up or hiding, the Chantry and Templars have no opposition in saying that the mages are happier where they are and all is well.  All the non-mages can live in little bubbles where they get to feel safe from mages with little guilt.

Anders' bomb rips away whatever illusion the populace might have had.  It is hard to think of the mages all happy in their towers when one of them is so desperate that he blows up a church. 

A simple assassination of an old woman (Elthina) would be too quiet and easy to cover up to serve that purpose.  Even setting off his explosion in the Gallows wouldn't really work for that goal, because the people are already being told that mages are dangerous and again it could be covered up and blamed on an accident or something.

Not sure if that holds up.  Fenryel tells you what he's heard about the Gallows, Anders has his sources of finding out and-as has been pointed out- he was quiet fond of writing manifestos.  Fenryel's mom is also reluctant to rat her kid out to the Temps and only does so when she thinks he's demon possesed.  Not to mention that there's a branch of the mages collective giving out quests in Kirkwall, I doubt they'd keep their trap shut about the rumors of how things are in the gallows.  Perhaps some people think the mages are happier, but I think we can assume that just as many people know that they're not.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina was a lazy, cowardly ****. Who cares?

Sebastian apparently.  Actually though the Mages should care at least a bit because it sets a bad tone for the rebellion.  Regardless of what she did, didn't, and/or failed to do Elthina was seen as someone who was willing to meet halfway.  By executing her because she stood in the way of freedom Anders created a with us or against us environment for the rebellion (where even moderates are enemies).  This could lead nations to side with the Templars because better the devil you know, which is going to make the whole fight a lot harder.

Note I am speaking only of the perception of Elthina and her actions rather than arguing the reality.  Sadly the Mage/Templar conflict strikes me as one of those where what is perceived to be true is more important than what is actually true.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

Circle mages are already considered "guilty" by the mere fact of their existence. Regular citizens tattle on them already. Public opinion is already so incredibly biased against them because of the chantry that blowing it up makes next to no difference in that regard.

What the normal population is taught and believes about mages goes well beyond suspicion. The chantry tells them in no uncertain terms that the mages are directly responsible for everything bad that ever happened anywhere ever.

To say that you're exaggerating would be a bit like saying that the Ameranthene Ocean is wet.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Pff. You can say the same for slavery, being work in exchange for food and suchlike. They're both bad.

Well you've already acknowledged that fuedelism isn't that much better then slavery and that it can be just as bad.  So doesn't that make fuedlism already better then slavery? 

I woudl say that Feudalism is better than slavery, in as much as people can't be outright bought and sold.  A lord was supposed to actually have some responsibility towards his serfs in return for their working the land.  However, only the normal people getting whatever benefits that amounts to.

Had the Chantry taken that first conquered generation of mages hostage - or even a generation or two after that - it could be said to be punitive and necessary to train up new generations of mages who wouldn't have the Tevinter mindset.

Honestly, given what we know about Tevinter, you might even be able to say that most circle mages are better off than most Tevinter mages.  They aren't dueling rivals to the death or scrounging for power just to survive.  (At least I don't remember seeing any of that.) 

BUT, just because life could be worse doesn't mean they shouldn't want it to be better.  The Chantry has a nice little system going, from their point of view.  And they aren't interested in allowing it to evolve into something closer to an ideal.  900 years seems like quite enough time to assume the Chantry won't change without pressure.

[bluewolv1970]

besides being a terrorist Anders is incredibly stupid...Hawke was already a stones throw from becoming viscount...rather than plan A of blowing up the chantry and killing dozens of innocent people which will lead to a war that kills thousands, a better plan would have been simply to slowly push Meredith over the edge while positioning Hawke as the heir to the viscount position. I think the Mage's lot in life would be drastically better off and based on previous events seemed pretty easy to do

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Not sure if that holds up.  Fenryel tells you what he's heard about the Gallows, Anders has his sources of finding out and-as has been pointed out- he was quiet fond of writing manifestos.  Fenryel's mom is also reluctant to rat her kid out to the Temps and only does so when she thinks he's demon possesed.  Not to mention that there's a branch of the mages collective giving out quests in Kirkwall, I doubt they'd keep their trap shut about the rumors of how things are in the gallows.  Perhaps some people think the mages are happier, but I think we can assume that just as many people know that they're not.

It is fairly well established that Kirkwall is not normal.  Cullen tells you the citizens are noticably less helpful in Kirkwall than elsewhere.  Meredith is not the standard Knight Commander either, as she is much more involved in politics than her position would normally allow.  I could imagine her personality would make people wonder how she would treat the folks in her care.

In Ferelden, Isolde seems more worried about the shame of having a mage child than what he'll be treated like in the circle.  I don't recall that we know why Meredith's parents kept her sister home, but I could imagine just knowing they may never see her again could be enough.

The general impression I got from game lore is that most people are happy to see mage children taken away to circles to protect themselves and they aren't too concerned about whether the children are happy.  A bit of dogma from the Chantry to reinforce the idea that the circles are what's best for everyone, and you have a happily naive populace.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Circle mages are already considered "guilty" by the mere fact of their existence. Regular citizens tattle on them already. Public opinion is already so incredibly biased against them because of the chantry that blowing it up makes next to no difference in that regard.

What the normal population is taught and believes about mages goes well beyond suspicion. The chantry tells them in no uncertain terms that the mages are directly responsible for everything bad that ever happened anywhere ever.

To say that you're exaggerating would be a bit like saying that the Ameranthene Ocean is wet.

I'm not ****ing exaggerating. Have you played the game at all? The bigotry against mages is so blatantly obvious that your failure to miss it is genuinely mind-boggling.

The Chantry explicitly teaches that mages are responsible for the Darkspawn, which, makes them responsible for every single Blight. It tells people that allowing mages any measure of freedom will inevitably result in a new Tevinter Imperium, which is such mind-bendingly backwards logic that simply repeating the sentiment now makes me measurably dumber. It flagrantly and completely ignores the services mages have performed for Thedas at large, including being the deciding factor in the war against the Qunari. The mages receive no public acknowledgement for this service and are rewarded with re-imprisonment once they are no longer required.

Templars go out of their way to capture mages from Dalish clans with no respect for the fact that mages and magic are highly respected and central to Dalish culture and lore. Morrigan testifies to being harrassed by templars repeatedly, despite the fact that she and her mother live a completely isolated life in the middle of the Korcari Wilds. Noble families try to breed magic out of their bloodline. Within the Circle itself, the Chantry robs mages of their children and marriage is only allowed by special permission.

What the Chantry subjects the mages to is no less than genocide disguised as an education. There are two reasons why mages aren't already extinct: a) they are occasionally useful for furthering the political agenda of the Chantry and they can't stop mages from being born.