2008 réponses à ce sujet

[bluewolv1970]

All I know is that in act 3, going solely on what the game gave us, Hawke was the second most powerful person in Kirkwall. If pro mage he IS approached by regular citizens in the city who oppose Meredith (which shows us not everyone in Kirkwall is anti mage). The former Senechal opposes Meredith. Cullen is suspicious of her, Thrask opposes her...the Circle in Fereldan may be free and last but not least Hawke has proven he can discredit and manipulate if needed...Why on Earth would Anders think mass murder was a better option.

[RazorrX]

Lord Aesir wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Elthina is a prime example of the chantry not having proper oversite. She was too old and too weak to have remained in that position given the way the Templars were basically running the show. She should have been retired and a younger and stronger willed woman put in her place. Merideth should have been brought to heel well before she got mr happy sword.

Asunder shows us that the chantry's authority over the templars is far from absolute.

I've written long posts about how Elthina couldn't have done more without endangering the people of Kirkwall but I'm not going to retread that debate here.

My point is that she should have been replaced long before.  Same as the divine. Having a senile divine was just as bad. The chantry needed to be more proactive.  Hopefully a better one will come out of this rebellion.  

But elthina could have asked the divine to relocate both Orsino and Merideth long before things got that bad.  

Modifié par RazorrX, 06 février 2012 - 02:42 .

[RazorrX]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

All I know is that in act 3, going solely on what the game gave us, Hawke was the second most powerful person in Kirkwall. If pro mage he IS approached by regular citizens in the city who oppose Meredith (which shows us not everyone in Kirkwall is anti mage). The former Senechal opposes Meredith. Cullen is suspicious of her, Thrask opposes her...the Circle in Fereldan may be free and last but not least Hawke has proven he can discredit and manipulate if needed...Why on Earth would Anders think mass murder was a better option.

Because Anders is no longer running the show by then and vengeance does not really understand nor care to.

Anders blamed the chantry. Vengeance wants the chantry to pay in blood. Think of him as a wacked out IRA bomber.  "blood must be spilled for the blood that was spilled ..."

[GavrielKay]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

All I know is that in act 3, going solely on what the game gave us, Hawke was the second most powerful person in Kirkwall. If pro mage he IS approached by regular citizens in the city who oppose Meredith (which shows us not everyone in Kirkwall is anti mage). The former Senechal opposes Meredith. Cullen is suspicious of her, Thrask opposes her...the Circle in Fereldan may be free and last but not least Hawke has proven he can discredit and manipulate if needed...Why on Earth would Anders think mass murder was a better option.

Perhaps because all those people had been opposing Meredith for years and yet she seemed to be gathering ever more power despite that?  Hawke is supposed to have been in Kirkwall for what...  7 years? by the end game.  Things were worse than ever, with no guarantee that waiting around would fix anything. 

Those silly 3 year gaps are so annoying when talking about how "powerful" Hawke was supposed to have been.  Neither a pro-mage or pro-Templar Hawke should have just been sitting around while Meredith went from fanatical to insane.  She hurt both causes. 

[Ivucci]

I would say that the tendency to view mages as a different ethnic group hurts their cause much like anything else. Calling them “they” allows you to say “I don’t want anything with those” and to stand idly with your arms fold while they are brutalized. The truth is that any woman – be it farmer, noble, another mage, possibly with some race restriction – can give birth to a mage. Being born as a mage can happen to anyone.

A mage is not responsible for other mages being born – or did I miss something again in the lore (which is entirely possible)? The fact of the matter is that one day you can be laughing your head off watching a mage being beaten up and tortured because Hey s/he is just one of those scumbags and why should I care and it’s a handy prevention anyway, the next day your wife will give birth to a mage. Now what, following his logic this guy should go and let himself be beaten up too or maybe rather just hang himself on the spot (which is actually not far from truth, right?).

Meaning, the “normal” people should wake up, too, and realize that this is something that concerns just about everyone.

The best parallel I can find in our world is not that of an ethnic group, but of mentally and physically handicapped people. Not an ideal analogy that’s for sure (and I’m not gonna argue about who’s dangerous and who’s not), but in my opinion fits a bit better than the "ethnic group” one. Or maybe combination of both would work just fine.

bluewolv1970 wrote...

All I know is that in act 3, going solely on what the game gave us, Hawke was the second most powerful person in Kirkwall. If pro mage he IS approached by regular citizens in the city who oppose Meredith (which shows us not everyone in Kirkwall is anti mage). The former Senechal opposes Meredith. Cullen is suspicious of her, Thrask opposes her...the Circle in Fereldan may be free and last but not least Hawke has proven he can discredit and manipulate if needed...Why on Earth would Anders think mass murder was a better option.

The game doesn’t let Hawke do anything, sure, but that serves to show precisely the level of unwillingness of the civil management and representatives to take action that drives Anders mad just like all the cases of injustice. Besides, if you romance Anders, he states clearly that he didn’t want to force you to jump on the one way suicide train with him – so much for all the negativity he’s getting.

Everyone opposes everyone, they waste time arguing (hell, if left to their own devices, they would probably argue forever just like we are here on BSN), the secular/civil institutions want nothing to do with it and take no action, Grand Cleric and Divine linger – to say the least.

Mass murder was not a better option. It was *the* option. Assassinating Elthina alone somewhere in a dirty back alley would have been the stupid thing to do. Anders doesn’t hate Elthina personally, hell, I’m sure he would have helped her with gastric ulcers or back ache or whatever she might have developed in her age given all the stress she is under (and yes she must be under a hell lot of stress as I’m sure she is well aware she has a ticking bomb under her feet), he desperately despises what she represents as a political power – fence-sitting, hesitancy, watching other people suffer etc. etc. this has all been discussed already.

Also, being anti-Meredith doesn’t automatically imply being pro-mage. The majority of the citizens who opposed Meredith would not - and did not! - move one finger to help the mages. Or maybe they would, just because otherwise there will be no one to heal their blisters...?

Modifié par Ivucci, 06 février 2012 - 12:48 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Ivucci wrote...

I would say that the tendency to view mages as a different ethnic group hurts their cause much like anything else. Calling them “they” allows you to say “I don’t want anything with those” and to stand idly with your arms fold while they are brutalized. The truth is that any woman – be it farmer, noble, another mage, possibly with some race restriction – can give birth to a mage. Being born as a mage can happen to anyone.

Yes, putting them in their own ethnic group would be harmful, I'm sure.

Just like putting gays and lesbians in their own ethnic group, despite being able to be born from anyone, would be harmful. Or putting all women into a ethnic group, for the sake of women's lib, has got to be a bad idea. It couldn't possibly help those groups succeed in making things better for themselves. That's preposterous.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ivucci wrote...

I would say that the tendency to view mages as a different ethnic group hurts their cause much like anything else. Calling them “they” allows you to say “I don’t want anything with those” and to stand idly with your arms fold while they are brutalized. The truth is that any woman – be it farmer, noble, another mage, possibly with some race restriction – can give birth to a mage. Being born as a mage can happen to anyone.

Yes, putting them in their own ethnic group would be harmful, I'm sure.

Just like putting gays and lesbians in their own ethnic group, despite being able to be born from anyone, would be harmful. Or putting all women into a ethnic group, for the sake of women's lib, has got to be a bad idea. It couldn't possibly help those groups succeed in making things better for themselves. That's preposterous.

Well homosexuals and women aren't actually in their own ethnic groups. Ethnicity is "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition".

Homosexuals and women span a variety of nations and cultures so they can't be considered ethnic groups. Certain similarities between individuals may furnish them with a group identity that transcends ethnicity, but that isn't the same thing. For this same reason, it would be impossible for mages to be an "ethnic group" as well. Also, they are not "put" into groups, the groups merely exist.

Also, the purpose of the LGBT Rights/Women's Lib/various Ethnic Rights movements is not to separate these groups from the rest of society. Separation is not helpful to their respective causes and is, in fact, the exact opposite of their intended goal. They are/were already separated by virtue of deemed somehow "less worthy" of basic rights than the dominant social group (ie; straight white males). The purpose of these movements is to help the disenfranchised people they represent to integrate with the dominant social groups at an equal level.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 février 2012 - 02:30 .

[Lazy Jer]

Mages aren't an ethnic group, therefore the term "racism" doesn't apply.  The applicable term is "prejudice", given that mages can be of any race, sex, social class, etc.

[RazorrX]

What has been done to Mages is that they have been "demonized" for centuries. When you demonize a group of people it makes it easier to justify whatever you do to them. In times of war it is most often seen in order to deal with killing so many, etc. Look at how we showed germans during WW2, or talk to a vet from Vietnam and you will see the same thing went on there. You dehumanize your enemy to make you able to deal with what you are doing.

Now take this to the logical conclusion of hundreds of years of demonization/dehumanizing. Most of the public do not really see mages as people anymore - they see them as the boogyman. Bad crops - A mage did it. Sickness - mages did it. Draught - mages, etc. Every ill is blamed on Mages because they are the boogyman. This is why the templars are becoming more and more ruthless - they are chosen from the most fanatical followers of a faith that has demonized mages for centuries.

The fact that Justina recognizes this and is trying to reverse it speaks VERY highly of her.

[MissOuJ]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Mages aren't an ethnic group, therefore the term "racism" doesn't apply.  The applicable term is "prejudice", given that mages can be of any race, sex, social class, etc.

I disagree, but only just. I think prejudice alone doesn't quite cover the discrimination mages face. I would suggest "oppression", since mages face discrimination based on deeply institutionalised, oppressive system.

Now, on the topic at large...

I don't think it is appropriate to draw parallels between what Meredith does and what Anders does, since their actions are in no way equal. Meredith has power, she uses it to become de facto Viscount, to oppress mages (and, in some cases, their families as well), and secure her political power. Also, her attempts to "deal" with issues within the Circle has included making Harrowed mages tranquil (like Karl), and violence in general. Anders has no power, is part of oppressed minority, and is trying to secure freedom for mages. He's also been looking for a peaceful way out (as has been pointed out in this thead many times over), and is ready to die for his ideals. Meredith is ready to kill even his own Templars, and Hawke, to advance her cause, regardless of whether s/he sided with the Templars or not.

And, to be honest, I think Anders was completely justified in his actions. Meredith had already sent for promission to envoke the Annulment, and would've most probably done it in the end, regardless of what the Circle did or didn't do. Anders forced her hand so all mages could finally see no matter how well they behaved and studied they could be sentenced to death by no fault of their own. Also, I find it kind of odd how some have commented on the numerous orphans that died(?!) when the Chantry exploded. We don't know that. But what we do know for certain, is that at any time there are mage children in the Circle, who would've been/were killed during the Templar attack.

I have to say, DA2 is actually the first RPG/game I've played with such interesting and thought-provoking disection of systemic oppression. I love how a fantasy game can have such intelligent commentary. Kudos for that for the whole BioWare writing team!

[MissOuJ]

RazorrX wrote...

What has been done to Mages is that they have been "demonized" for centuries. When you demonize a group of people it makes it easier to justify whatever you do to them. In times of war it is most often seen in order to deal with killing so many, etc. Look at how we showed germans during WW2, or talk to a vet from Vietnam and you will see the same thing went on there. You dehumanize your enemy to make you able to deal with what you are doing.

Now take this to the logical conclusion of hundreds of years of demonization/dehumanizing. Most of the public do not really see mages as people anymore - they see them as the boogyman. Bad crops - A mage did it. Sickness - mages did it. Draught - mages, etc. Every ill is blamed on Mages because they are the boogyman. This is why the templars are becoming more and more ruthless - they are chosen from the most fanatical followers of a faith that has demonized mages for centuries.

The fact that Justina recognizes this and is trying to reverse it speaks VERY highly of her.

Absolutely true. After reading Asunder, I have become positive the problem lies in both the more conservative members of the Chantry as well as its military branch (both Seekers and Templars), who have been responsible for the systematic propaganda campaign agains mages for 900+ years.. That Justinia was actually trying to do something about the issue, and had started it before Anders' revolution, is what makes her character morally superior to Ethina in my opinnion. Justinia isn't just trying to do damage control (which is something Elthina didn't even bother with); she's truly trying to act as a guardian for all of her people, and she recognizes mages' oppression, and is using her influence to change this.

Too bad it's too little, too late.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 06 février 2012 - 05:23 .

[GavrielKay]

RazorrX wrote...
The fact that Justina recognizes this and is trying to reverse it speaks VERY highly of her.

It speaks highly of Justinia that she cares.  I think the fact that even she can't tame the Seekers and Templars in the end says a lot too.

Personally, I hate and avoid violence.  But, I am realistic too; not all problems can be solved at the negotiating table.

[dragonflight288]

My point is that she should have been replaced long before. Same as the divine. Having a senile divine was just as bad. The chantry needed to be more proactive. Hopefully a better one will come out of this rebellion.

I bolded the parts that I think are relevant.

The Divine was trying to help the mages. She was looking for reform. It was because of this that the Templars and Seekers decided to rebel and attack all mages because she wasn't a hardliner on their side of the issue. If you support the templars then you are all for locking up all the mages.

If you are for reform, the templars leaders would ignore you despite being the highest position in the Chantry and kill all the mages anyway. To them, it's their way or death. There can be no other.

They actually remind me of the Judges in the Salem Witch Trials, if you've read or watched the Crucible.

[RazorrX]

The reason the Templars had the Power and the Will do do what they did in Asunder, etc. is because for years there was a Senile Divine in charge of the chantry. They gained power during that time. Power that Justina was trying to take back. The Templars were resisting as they LIKED being in control.

*If* the chantry had replaced the previous Divine before she became so ineffectual, the Templars would not have had the powerbase to openly go against Justina.

So the end result of the Chantry being as complacent as it was with its leaders is that it lost control over the Templars.

[Lazy Jer]

In a blatent attempt to get the last word in on an argument that cooled down over a week ago, I just wanted to say that Anders didn't attack the Chantry neccessarily because he didn't like it or thought it was an abusive entity. He attacked the Chantry because they are the one entity that could have negotiated between the Orsino and the Circle and Meredeth and the Templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Which just makes his actions all the worse.

[GavrielKay]

Only if you believe that mages have some obligation to play nice and let the Chantry rule their lives forever. Which they don't.

[WhiteKnyght]

Anders and Justice are not good for each other.

It was Anders' hatred that corrupted Justice, and it was Justice's black and white absolutes personality that paired with Anders' prejudice of the Chantry and drove Anders to his insane plans.

Which is one reason why I compare him to Meredith. The idol did the same thing to her, playing on her fear and prejudice of magic and drove her to think that it's better to just kill everyone to be on the safe side. Anders' actions just gave her a good enough excuse to avoid public outcry from mage sympathy.

Which actually makes me believe that the idol might have some kind of spirit or demon inside of it. The idol itself could have been something that ancient mages sealed a powerful demon in and down the line it got found by some dwarves who became influenced by it and started worshiping it.

[Lazy Jer]

Hmph...I guess my "get the last word in the argument" trick didn't work.

Still I can't help but notice that the Chantry gets a lot of blame for running the lives of the Circle.  They don't, really.  It's the Templars that run the lives of the Circle.  The connection between the Circle and the Chantry itself is loose at best.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

Only if you believe that mages have some obligation to play nice and let the Chantry rule their lives forever. Which they don't.

The Chantry which was actually taking steps to improve the lievs of mages, and reduce the power of the Templars? Yeah. I think it is in the mages' best interrest to play nice to those guys.

[TEWR]

The Chantry which was actually taking steps to improve the lievs of mages, and reduce the power of the Templars? Yeah. I think it is in the mages' best interrest to play nice to those guys.

There's nothing saying the Mages aren't going to try and work with Justinia V. In fact, if they're smart they're going to try and seek her out to offer to protect her from the New Inquisition who want her dead, as a means to help their chances of earning their freedom.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Only if you believe that mages have some obligation to play nice and let the Chantry rule their lives forever. Which they don't.

The Chantry which was actually taking steps to improve the lievs of mages, and reduce the power of the Templars? Yeah. I think it is in the mages' best interrest to play nice to those guys.

There is only one person in the Chantry that we know was working to make conditions better for mages.  She may not have been working for mage freedom, and she certainly wasn't able to push her more progressive views onto the Templars.  So, your point is moot.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Chantry which was actually taking steps to improve the lievs of mages, and reduce the power of the Templars? Yeah. I think it is in the mages' best interrest to play nice to those guys.

There's nothing saying the Mages aren't going to try and work with Justinia V. In fact, if they're smart they're going to try and seek her out to offer to protect her from the New Inquisition who want her dead, as a means to help their chances of earning their freedom.

I didn't exactly get the "we want the Divine dead!" vibe from the Templars secession from the Chantry. However, from the mages almost literal "we want the divine dead!" I certainly got that vibe. They are not going to try and work with her. Because that would be smart. Mages aren't smart. 

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Only if you believe that mages have some obligation to play nice and let the Chantry rule their lives forever. Which they don't.

The Chantry which was actually taking steps to improve the lievs of mages, and reduce the power of the Templars? Yeah. I think it is in the mages' best interrest to play nice to those guys.

There is only one person in the Chantry that we know was working to make conditions better for mages.  She may not have been working for mage freedom, and she certainly wasn't able to push her more progressive views onto the Templars.  So, your point is moot.

That "one" person is the leader of the entire Chantry. Her word is law within the Chantry. The problem was that the Templars had amassed too much power, and was allowed to do whatever they pleased (basically anyway) by the old Divine. Which left the new Divine in a tough spot of actually trying to improve things. But neither side willing to accept it.
And my point was that if Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry in Kirkwall, popular opinion of mages, wouldn't have been at an all time low, and she might actually have been able to help the mages.
Hell, even the Templars agreed to let the amges meet to work out a new set of rules for the Circles. But what does the mages do? They spit in the face of the people trying to help them, and start discussing open rebellion! But what did I expect? Mages aren't smart after all, as they've proven again and again.

[TEWR]

From what I've read on the forums -- haven't read Asunder yet -- the Templar mindset was that of "Kill the Divine. Put someone less mage-friendly and more malleable to our desires in charge".

[Xilizhra]

Hell, even the Templars agreed to let the amges meet to work out a new set of rules for the Circles. But what does the mages do? They spit in the face of the people trying to help them, and start discussing open rebellion! But what did I expect? Mages aren't smart after all, as they've proven again and again.

They were right to do so. It's all just bull**** the Chantry is going to be throwing around to stay in control unless its control is completely smashed. Preferably along with the nation of Orlais.