2008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

esper wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The other reason is because I think the Chantry just wants political clout all over the world.

So in other words they just want to take over the world.

You forgot, take over the world and bring an evil god's attention back to the world. Double bonus.

The Maker is evil now? 

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The other reason is because I think the Chantry just wants political clout all over the world.

So in other words they just want to take over the world.

You forgot, take over the world and bring an evil god's attention back to the world. Double bonus.

The Maker is evil now? 

There are likely worse gods out there. The Maker does sound like a colossal douche though - the whole "plague the world with the darkspawn forever until the people come back to my communion" doesn't put him in the best light. You're welcome to disagree of course, as you most surely will.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Humans did wreck his home...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's not quite how the story goes. The darkspawn aren't directly related to the worship of the Maker or lack there of.They were the fault of the Tevinter magisters.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 février 2012 - 12:19 .

[Cody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Humans did wreck his home...

......and? You punish the intruders not an entire population on the planet . What would you do if someone broke into your home? Kick them out with a baseball bat or unleash some sort of radioactive disease on the Earth? They didn't even wreck his open just opened the doors.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 16 février 2012 - 12:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I guess sarcasm isn't for everyone...

But seriously. To understand divinity would require one to be divine. I make no such claim, and as such, I will refrain from declaring any god good or evil.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

"The Chantry teaches us that it is the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into our world. The mages had sought to usurp heaven, but instead they destroyed it. They were cast out, twisted and cursed by their own corruption."

If we follow the breaking into a house metaphor, then the magisters broke into his house and broke the case containing a radioactive disease and then were chased on with a baseball bat and spread it into the world themselves..

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 février 2012 - 12:29 .

[TEWR]

I don't consider Corypheus and his drinking buddies as the first Darkspawn. Merely the first Awakened Darkspawn.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I do, but that's not really the point. We're talking about Chantry doctrine, so the Chantry story is really all that is relevant to the discussion.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If we presume the Maker to be real, then I wouldn't take the Chantry's teachings as an absolute truth anyway. Merely an itnerpretation of the Maker's actions. As i said, for a mortal to understand a divinity is impossible. A divinity is a higher plane of existence, and we can only hope to understand bits and pieces of it. Which leads to several different interpretations, all holding a grain of truth.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If we presume the Maker to be real, then I wouldn't take the Chantry's teachings as an absolute truth anyway. Merely an itnerpretation of the Maker's actions. As i said, for a mortal to understand a divinity is impossible. A divinity is a higher plane of existence, and we can only hope to understand bits and pieces of it. Which leads to several different interpretations, all holding a grain of truth.

Sure, the Chantry could be wrong.  The Maker could be one of the Old Gods or one of the Dalish gods.  Doesn't change the fact that the Maker as presented by Chantry doctrine doesn't really seem worth brining back.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Humans did wreck his home...

Only according to the same Chantry doctrine that you say could be wrong.

[Cody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I guess sarcasm isn't for everyone...

But seriously. To understand divinity would require one to be divine. I make no such claim, and as such, I will refrain from declaring any god good or evil.

Oi, gimmie a break. Just got home not too long ago from the gym doing Century sets by Mike Gilete. I'm a wittle tired here so give me some slack! >

[EmperorSahlertz]

CodyMelch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I guess sarcasm isn't for everyone...

But seriously. To understand divinity would require one to be divine. I make no such claim, and as such, I will refrain from declaring any god good or evil.

Oi, gimmie a break. Just got home not too long ago from the gym doing Century sets by Mike Gilete. I'm a wittle tired here so give me some slack! >

/hands Cody slack

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If we presume the Maker to be real, then I wouldn't take the Chantry's teachings as an absolute truth anyway.

This is how I've viewed the Chantry teaching regarding the "Golden City" turning into the Black City since Corypheus was unveiled.

The way I see it, the Chant that deals with the Darkspawn contains only a single, solitary grain of truth. The Magisters did invade the City, but they became the first Awakened Darkspawn and not the first Darkspawn in existence. Additionally, I don't think the City was ever Golden. I think it was always blackened.

So, really, the only truth to the whole situation is that the Magisters did in fact attempt to enter the city.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Humans did wreck his home...

And **** up the dwarves in process. He is indeed a swell guy gain 2 damnations for the price of 1

[DKJaigen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

[*]
And let's say they do, somehow manage to win. Win what? They would likely have to kill everyone, because no one would surrender against that kind of single-minded butchery, and they would inherit a scorched earth and shattered cities. In other words, they would be ruined. Don't forget that the Mongols, for all of their conquests, could barely hold onto that empire, built so quickly, for a generation.

    
[*]

I greatly admire Machiavelli. But his theories are not appliable to this conflict as it is a religious and not a political one. For the mages to compromise is not a viable option, not even with a pro-mage divine. The root of the problem is the chant of light that will continue to generate undeserved hatred towards mages. And while it is possible that peace can be achieved you only need 1 anti-mage divine to start the process all over again.

If i was a mage i would not be burdend over much of the fate of a people that want to see me destroyed. if i was a mage and had to kill 2/3 of the chantry worshippers to accomplish my goal so be it. I would finally be able to live in peace and future generations as well. If this can be achieved without much bloodshed then thats is even better.

[Cody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I guess sarcasm isn't for everyone...

But seriously. To understand divinity would require one to be divine. I make no such claim, and as such, I will refrain from declaring any god good or evil.

Oi, gimmie a break. Just got home not too long ago from the gym doing Century sets by Mike Gilete. I'm a wittle tired here so give me some slack! >

/hands Cody slack

God damnit, I meant to say "Cut me some slack" XD. See how tired I was!? I asked for more slack when I shoulda asked for less!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If we presume the Maker to be real, then I wouldn't take the Chantry's teachings as an absolute truth anyway.

This
is how I've viewed the Chantry teaching regarding the "Golden City"
turning into the Black City since Corypheus was unveiled.

The way
I see it, the Chant that deals with the Darkspawn contains only a
single, solitary grain of truth. The Magisters did invade the City, but
they became the first Awakened Darkspawn and not the first Darkspawn in
existence. Additionally, I don't think the City was ever Golden. I think
it was always blackened.

So, really, the only truth to the whole situation is that the Magisters did in fact attempt to enter the city.

Tbh, when it comes to the Origins of the Darkspawn, I am going to believe the Dwarves before any other source. They were the first to be attacked, they lived where the Darkspawn live, even some say that they had some encounters with them before the Tevinter tried anything. And since both Darkspawn and Dwarves live underground I am going to believe the neighbours of the darkspawn over Chantry nutcases or surface dwellers any day.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 16 février 2012 - 03:19 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

People act as if the dwarven and Chantry stories of the origin of the darkspawn are incompatible. They aren't. Essentially they boil down to this:

The Chantry: The magisters breached the Golden City.
The Dwarves: We don't know.

The Chant of Light even mentions that the first darkspawn fled underground and they both agree that they were searching for the Old Gods at the time so there's nothing in the Chantry version that is at all incompatible with the dwarven version.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

People act as if the dwarven and Chantry stories of the origin of the darkspawn are incompatible. They aren't. Essentially they boil down to this:

The Chantry: The magisters breached the Golden City.
The Dwarves: We don't know.

The Chant of Light even mentions that the first darkspawn fled underground and they both agree that they were searching for the Old Gods at the time so there's nothing in the Chantry version that is at all incompatible with the dwarven version.

CodyMelch wrote...

Tbh, when it comes to the Origins of the Darkspawn, I am going to believe the Dwarves before any other source. They were the first to be attacked, they lived where the Darkspawn live, even some say that they had some encounters with them before the Tevinter tried anything. And since both Darkspawn and Dwarves live underground I am going to believe the neighbours of the darkspawn over Chantry nutcases or surface dwellers any day.

Indeed. Hence why I call the Magisters the first Awakened Darkspawn. I believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn, seeing as the Genlocks were the first reported Darkspawn to be seen. I believe the Primeval Thaig and the red lyrium -- or at least the red lyrium idol if it's different then just red lyrium -- are linked to the emergence of the Darkspawn.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2012 - 04:15 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Before we move any further, did you add "Primaeval Thaig" to the above quote or did he remove it from his original post?

Second of all, I'm afraid that I don't recall any sources in either game claiming that dwarves fought darkspawn explicitly before the Tevinter Magisters ever breached the city. Both sides seem to have records of encoutnering darkspawn at more or less the same time. In fact Caradin's journal in DAO seems to state he himself blames humans for the coming of the darkspawn.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 février 2012 - 04:13 .

[TEWR]

Before we move any further, did you add "Primaeval Thaig" to the above quote or did he remove it from his original post?

Crap. I meant for that to be my part of my post, but it got added to Cody's instead.

Second of all, I'm afraid that I don't recall any sources in either game claiming that dwarves fought darkspawn explicitly before the Tevinter Magisters ever breached the city. In fact Caradin's journal in DAO seems to state he himself blames humans for the coming of the darkspawn

Dwarven entry on Darkspawn written by Czibor. I'm hesitant to believe Caridin simply because he's a secondhand witness as well as Czibor.

But, assuming the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were responsible for the Darkspawn like I believe, the Genlocks could've easily made raids on the surface and abducted female humans and elves (and hornless Kossith if any were in Thedosian lands at the time).

Or... my abandoned theory might be the case. Each race being responsible for each type of Darkspawn. Humans for Hurlocks, Dwarves for Genlocks, etc.

But I'd still maintain that if that theory was the case, the Magisters were still the first Awakened Darkspawn.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2012 - 04:17 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Chantry's version says that the Magisters were the first Darkspawn and then fled underground. I don't see how that is incompatible with the dwarven version of the Darkspawn appearing out of nowhere.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry's version says that the Magisters were the first Darkspawn and then fled underground. I don't see how that is incompatible with the dwarven version of the Darkspawn appearing out of nowhere.

The darkspawn had ogres within their ranks at the beginning of the first blight. That alone destroys the chanty's argument. I do believe that the corrupted magisters somehow acted as homing beacons. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Would that be this?

"The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage. At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs, came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong."--As told by Shaper Czibor.

That just says that Czibor doesn't believe the Chantry verison of the story. He doesn't have any contradictory information and he doesn't say that they fought darkspawn before the magisters' incident.

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry's version says that the Magisters were the first Darkspawn and
then fled underground. I don't see how that is incompatible with the
dwarven version of the Darkspawn appearing out of nowhere.

The darkspawn had ogres within their ranks at the beginning of the first
blight. That alone destroys the chanty's argument. I do believe that the
corrupted magisters somehow acted as homing beacons. 

Ogres have been seen in blights but it doesn't nesscarily mean they were in the First Blight. Even if they were though, it doesn't mean it contradicts the Chantry story. The First Blight lasted 200 years, they could have found qunari at any point during it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 février 2012 - 05:22 .