2008 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Ogres have been seen in blights but it doesn't nesscarily mean they were in the First Blight. Even if they were though, it doesn't mean it contradicts the Chantry story. The First Blight lasted 200 years, they could have found qunari at any point during it.

The First Blight happened centuries before the Qunari arrived at Par Vollen from across the ocean to the north. The Qunari are very recent, comparatively, in Thedas. Unless darkspawn were present on the original homeland of the Qunari, it is unlikely they would have had ogres. Keep in mind that the reason Sten was in Ferelden was because the Arishok had no idea what the Blight was. If this is the case, it's likely the Qunari had no previous history with darkspawn.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 février 2012 - 05:45 .

[TEWR]

Yes but the cinematic showing what the First Blight did to the dwarves explicitly shows an Ogre breaking down the gate.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The other reason is because I think the Chantry just wants political clout all over the world.

So in other words they just want to take over the world.

You forgot, take over the world and bring an evil god's attention back to the world. Double bonus.

The Maker is evil now? 

According to his organaization's teaching, yes:
Abandoning his children at least twice
Dealing out punishment way out of proportion with the crime.
Falling in love with a married women and completely lacking insight in the minds he himself created.

I seriously hope he doesn't exist, but if he does, the last thing anyone should want is to get a moody deity's attention back.

[TEWR]

Would that be this?

"The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage. At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs, came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong."--As told by Shaper Czibor.

That just says that Czibor doesn't believe the Chantry verison of the story. He doesn't have any contradictory information and he doesn't say that they fought darkspawn before the magisters' incident.

If you reread it though, it says creatures in our own likeness. Meaning Genlocks were the first Darkspawn to be seen. And that they rose up from the earth.

Genlocks in DAII now rise up from the dirt.

And since he says that they were first seen in the Deep Roads, I take it to believe that the Darkspawn originated in the Deep Roads.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2012 - 05:56 .

[WhiteKnyght]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Ogres have been seen in blights but it doesn't nesscarily mean they were in the First Blight. Even if they were though, it doesn't mean it contradicts the Chantry story. The First Blight lasted 200 years, they could have found qunari at any point during it.

The First Blight happened centuries before the Qunari arrived at Par Vollen from across the ocean to the north. The Qunari are very recent, comparatively, in Thedas. Unless darkspawn were present on the original homeland of the Qunari, it is unlikely they would have had ogres. Keep in mind that the reason Sten was in Ferelden was because the Arishok had no idea what the Blight was. If this is the case, it's likely the Qunari had no previous history with darkspawn.

Darkspawn tunnel through the earth. It's not impossible that they may be a problem for other continents as well.

The Arishok asked "What is the Blight," not "What are darkspawn."

Although the Qunari and Kossith may have their own name for them.

[Cody]

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The other reason is because I think the Chantry just wants political clout all over the world.

So in other words they just want to take over the world.

You forgot, take over the world and bring an evil god's attention back to the world. Double bonus.

The Maker is evil now? 

According to his organaization's teaching, yes:
Abandoning his children at least twice
Dealing out punishment way out of proportion with the crime.
Falling in love with a married women and completely lacking insight in the minds he himself created.

I seriously hope he doesn't exist, but if he does, the last thing anyone should want is to get a moody deity's attention back.

Don't forget that he has a mad fetish for incest seeing as Andraste would be his daughter since she and the rest of the beings on Thedas are all his children.

[esper]

CodyMelch wrote...

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The other reason is because I think the Chantry just wants political clout all over the world.

So in other words they just want to take over the world.

You forgot, take over the world and bring an evil god's attention back to the world. Double bonus.

The Maker is evil now? 

According to his organaization's teaching, yes:
Abandoning his children at least twice
Dealing out punishment way out of proportion with the crime.
Falling in love with a married women and completely lacking insight in the minds he himself created.

I seriously hope he doesn't exist, but if he does, the last thing anyone should want is to get a moody deity's attention back.

Don't forget that he has a mad fetish for incest seeing as Andraste would be his daughter since she and the rest of the beings on Thedas are all his children.

I was purposely not mentioning that.

[Cody]

esper wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The other reason is because I think the Chantry just wants political clout all over the world.

So in other words they just want to take over the world.

You forgot, take over the world and bring an evil god's attention back to the world. Double bonus.

The Maker is evil now? 

According to his organaization's teaching, yes:
Abandoning his children at least twice
Dealing out punishment way out of proportion with the crime.
Falling in love with a married women and completely lacking insight in the minds he himself created.

I seriously hope he doesn't exist, but if he does, the last thing anyone should want is to get a moody deity's attention back.

Don't forget that he has a mad fetish for incest seeing as Andraste would be his daughter since she and the rest of the beings on Thedas are all his children.

I was purposely not mentioning that.

Why? Lol, too yucky?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would that be this?

"The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage. At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs, came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong."--As told by Shaper Czibor.

That just says that Czibor doesn't believe the Chantry verison of the story. He doesn't have any contradictory information and he doesn't say that they fought darkspawn before the magisters' incident.

If you reread it though, it says creatures in our own likeness. Meaning Genlocks were the first Darkspawn to be seen. And that they rose up from the earth.

Genlocks in DAII now rise up from the dirt.

And since he says that they were first seen in the Deep Roads, I take it to believe that the Darkspawn originated in the Deep Roads.

The Chant of Light says the magisters fled deep underground which would account for what the dwarves experienced. And since genlocks come from dwarves it only makes sense that they were the first darkspawn encountere in the horde. Darkspawn Magisters would have needed an army if they were searching for the Old Gods.

[esper]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would that be this?

"The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage. At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs, came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong."--As told by Shaper Czibor.

That just says that Czibor doesn't believe the Chantry verison of the story. He doesn't have any contradictory information and he doesn't say that they fought darkspawn before the magisters' incident.

If you reread it though, it says creatures in our own likeness. Meaning Genlocks were the first Darkspawn to be seen. And that they rose up from the earth.

Genlocks in DAII now rise up from the dirt.

And since he says that they were first seen in the Deep Roads, I take it to believe that the Darkspawn originated in the Deep Roads.

The Chant of Light says the magisters fled deep underground which would account for what the dwarves experienced. And since genlocks come from dwarves it only makes sense that they were the first darkspawn encountere in the horde. Darkspawn Magisters would have needed an army if they were searching for the Old Gods.

How would the dwarves not notice the magister fleeing underground? Neither Coryphues nor the Archetchic was exaclty master of the subtle and they would have had to use the dwarven's entrances underground.
Somebody would have noticed the magic casting human sized monster creating more monsters.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Deep roads are huge. They could have fled underground from any point on the continent. It's not like dwarves somehow have 24 hour surveillance of every inch of the world.

[Cody]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Deep roads are huge. They could have fled underground from any point on the continent. It's not like dwarves somehow have 24 hour surveillance of every inch of the world.

The deep roads were mostly Dwarven cities. All of which wre occupied. The dwarves were arguably the biggest population on Thedas. For the Tevinters and hundreds of slaves to sneak through the deep roads without any "settlement" taking notice...is highly unlikely.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There didn't need to be hundreds of slaves, just the magisters. The deep roads have many unexplored or uninhabited areas. Otherwise the dwarves would have never been able to lose track of the Primeval Thaig and would know exactly where the darkspawn came from. The Deep Roads stretch throughout all of Thedas and possibly beyond, even at the height of their empire the dwarves could not have populated every square centimeter of it. Why would they? Humans don't know what happens on every inch of the surface.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 février 2012 - 10:00 .

[TEWR]

The Chant of Light says the magisters fled deep underground which would account for what the dwarves experienced. And since genlocks come from dwarves it only makes sense that they were the first darkspawn encountere in the horde. Darkspawn Magisters would have needed an army if they were searching for the Old Gods.

You're assuming the Magisters knew how to create broodmothers, when nothing really supports that position.

I've seen this stance taken before, and people have always claimed that the Architect created the Mother by abducting a human woman and making her a Broodmother.

Thing is though, had he done that he would've known that she wasn't a Darkspawn but rather a Ghoul, and thus he would've known his experiment wouldn't have worked liked he had hoped since he wanted to use it to free the Darkspawn from the their compulsion to seek out the Old Gods.

Additionally, how would they know how to make broodmothers? For the non-Awakened Darkspawn, it's instinct. They just know because it's a part of their nature. But the Awakened Darkspawn, how would they know? Unless the Golden City is like The Gate in Fullmetal Alchemist, I can't really see it.

I also can't see anywhere between five to a couple dozen monstrously warped Magisters avoiding a whole Empire that was at its peak, where every single Thaig -- except for the Primeval ones which rest below the other Thaigs -- was filled with Dwarves.

Finally, the red lyrium idol that Meredith uses in the final fight gives off the exact same sound as that of the Darkspawn whispering heard in Ostagar. And IIRC, it's also heard in the Reaver Joining and Warden Joining.

And the Darkspawn and both Joinings have one thing in common: they're related to Dragons. Ergo, the red lyrium -- or at least the lyrium idol -- must be related to the Old Gods, who are Dragons.

which, for me, points to the Primeval Thaig Dwarves being responsible for the mindless Darkspawn.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2012 - 10:37 .

[Xilizhra]

Finally, the red lyrium idol that Meredith uses in the final fight gives off the exact same sound as that of the Darkspawn whispering heard in Ostagar. And IIRC, it's also heard in the Reaver Joining and Warden Joining.

And the Darkspawn and both Joinings have one thing in common: they're related to Dragons. Ergo, the red lyrium -- or at least the lyrium idol -- must be related to the Old Gods, who are Dragons.

which, for me, points to the Primeval Thaig Dwarves being responsible for the mindless Darkspawn.

As... opposed to them simply reusing a creepy sound effect? I'm sorry, but I don't quite buy this.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You're assuming the Magisters knew how to create broodmothers, when nothing really supports that position.

I've seen this stance taken before, and people have always claimed that the Architect created the Mother by abducting a human woman and making her a Broodmother.

Thing is though, had he done that he would've known that she wasn't a Darkspawn but rather a Ghoul, and thus he would've known his experiment wouldn't have worked liked he had hoped since he wanted to use it to free the Darkspawn from the their compulsion to seek out the Old Gods.

Additionally, how would they know how to make broodmothers? For the non-Awakened Darkspawn, it's instinct. They just know because it's a part of their nature. But the Awakened Darkspawn, how would they know? Unless the Golden City is like The Gate in Fullmetal Alchemist, I can't really see it.

It seems at least as reasonable an assumption that they can create broodmothers than assuming that they can't. In fact, considering how complicated a process it is, I'd think it might make sense that a highly intelligent being may have designed it. But even if it is instinct, darkspawn magisters are still darkspawn, they have darkspawn impulses and would be tied into the taint and everything that goes with it. One of the descriptions of Corypheus in the letters in the dungeon mention that his thoughts are conufsed, like that of a darkspawn.

If you're idea that the magisters were the first awakened darkspawn is true. How would humans traveling to the Black City create the same type of being as the Architect using his joining ritual on darkspawn?

I personally always figured The Architect created the Mother by using his ritual on a broodmother that was already living amont the darkspawn, but in either case I don't see why that ritual shouldn't necessarily have worked. Ghouls are afflicted by the same call of the Old Gods as darkspawn.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


I also can't see anywhere between five to a couple dozen monstrously warped Magisters avoiding a whole Empire that was at its peak, where every single Thaig -- except for the Primeval ones which rest below the other Thaigs -- was filled with Dwarves.

Dwarven territory was vast. If a small band of dwarves snuck above ground into the Tevinter Impeirum, would everyone in the entire Empire somehow know about them? Even if some dwarves spotted them, they wouldn't be able to communicate quickly it to everyone and I'm sure few would believe them anyways.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Finally, the red lyrium idol that Meredith uses in the final fight gives off the exact same sound as that of the Darkspawn whispering heard in Ostagar. And IIRC, it's also heard in the Reaver Joining and Warden Joining.

And the Darkspawn and both Joinings have one thing in common: they're related to Dragons. Ergo, the red lyrium -- or at least the lyrium idol -- must be related to the Old Gods, who are Dragons.

which, for me, points to the Primeval Thaig Dwarves being responsible for the mindless Darkspawn.

I still think it's a reused sound file. And I don't think you've ever explained why the Primeval Thaig would be inhabited by creatures that were both alien and hostile to darkspawn if it was the source of the taint.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 février 2012 - 05:53 .

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

I greatly admire Machiavelli. But his theories are not appliable to this conflict as it is a religious and not a political one. For the mages to compromise is not a viable option, not even with a pro-mage divine. The root of the problem is the chant of light that will continue to generate undeserved hatred towards mages. And while it is possible that peace can be achieved you only need 1 anti-mage divine to start the process all over again.

If i was a mage i would not be burdend over much of the fate of a people that want to see me destroyed. if i was a mage and had to kill 2/3 of the chantry worshippers to accomplish my goal so be it. I would finally be able to live in peace and future generations as well. If this can be achieved without much bloodshed then thats is even better.

The point, DK, is that kind of attitude isn't going to win you your freedom.  If you slaughter everyone an Andrastean knows and say to them "drop your religious beliefs or die." you're not going to get a genuine change of opinion.  You're going to get someone paying you lip service long enough for you to leave them alone.  Then they're going to do everything in their limited power to take you down.

Let's face it, it's people with attitudes like yours that adventuring parties were invented for. 

Random Refugee:  Some bloodmage jerkweed is killing everyone in Lothering unless they convert (we just rebuilt the place too).  He says mages have a right to commit genocide against anyone who believes in the maker.

Hero:  Well it's a good thing I'm traveling with an unlikely crew of misfits.

Random Refugee: Yeah I kinda noticed that.

The point I'm trying to make is that killing 2/3rds of the chantry will n-e-v-e-r, win you peace.  It's going to create a war that won't end until you bump of that last 1/3rd, or the last 1/3rd allies with the Qunari and what's left of the Templars the Seekers and anyone other reasonably armed group with an anti-mage agenda to kick butt and forget the names.

[Rifneno]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The First Blight happened centuries before the Qunari arrived at Par Vollen from across the ocean to the north. The Qunari are very recent, comparatively, in Thedas. Unless darkspawn were present on the original homeland of the Qunari, it is unlikely they would have had ogres. Keep in mind that the reason Sten was in Ferelden was because the Arishok had no idea what the Blight was. If this is the case, it's likely the Qunari had no previous history with darkspawn.

IIRC, the devs have said that the depictions of ogres in the first blight are not a mistake. If nothing else, recall that the backflashes in Kal'Hirol showed an ogre attacking the dwarf making that list of casteless that were fighting the darkspawn. That happened during or before the first blight.
The qunari came from somewhere else, beyond Par Vollen. What we've been told is that they're cut off from their previous civilization. They were basically explorers and every attempt to contact their homeland has failed with the messagers never being seen again. The lead theory amongst fans seems to be that a blight broke out on their mainland and without Gray Wardens to end it they wiped out everything and the darkspawn reign supreme there now.

Esper wrote...

According to his organaization's teaching, yes:
Abandoning his children at least twice
Dealing out punishment way out of proportion with the crime.
Falling in love with a married women and completely lacking insight in the minds he himself created.

I seriously hope he doesn't exist, but if he does, the last thing anyone should want is to get a moody deity's attention back.

Nonsense. I got a hind's blood dagger off eBay last week. Tell him to bring it on.

Oh, and yeah, the Maker, if he exists, is the simple most evil entity in Thedas by leaps and bounds. Darkspawn, magisters, qunari, nobody even compares to the evil of the Maker.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Darkspawn tunnel through the earth. It's not impossible that they may be a problem for other continents as well.

The Arishok asked "What is the Blight," not "What are darkspawn."

Although the Qunari and Kossith may have their own name for them.

Unlikely. Sten seemed completely surprised by them. And I don't just mean that he was ambushed, he didn't seem to have ever seen or heard of anything like them. With other things, Sten would often talk of how the qunari view such things and/or their word for it. Of course, that isn't to say that the darkspawn aren't infesting other continents, just that I don't think the qunari of Par Vollen knew of them.

CodyMelch wrote...

Don't forget that he has a mad fetish for incest seeing as Andraste would be his daughter since she and the rest of the beings on Thedas are all his children.

Welcome to ancient religions 101.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Deep roads are huge. They could have fled underground from any point on the continent. It's not like dwarves somehow have 24 hour surveillance of every inch of the world.

It's also not like they were empty then as they are now. Before the darkspawn, the Deep Roads were about as empty as the Holland Tunnel.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There didn't need to be hundreds of slaves, just the magisters. The deep roads have many unexplored or uninhabited areas. Otherwise the dwarves would have never been able to lose track of the Primeval Thaig and would know exactly where the darkspawn came from. The Deep Roads stretch throughout all of Thedas and possibly beyond, even at the height of their empire the dwarves could not have populated every square centimeter of it. Why would they? Humans don't know what happens on every inch of the surface.

What a bad analogy. Humans didn't carve out every inch of the surface with backbreaking labor. The upper world exists because that's how it was formed. The Deep Roads exist because the dwarves made it.

[dragonflight288]

As a dwarf, and a well-read dwarf, my theory is quite simple. Whatever the dwarves in the primeaval thaig were doing, it was completely disconnected from Kal Sharok and Orzammar. How do I know this? Because here are no statues of paragons, no records of dwarven families. Just a lot of valuables and a red lyrium idol. And the only example of red lyrium I've ever seen.

I also know through the dwarven codexes that the Darkspawn came from underground. That the dwarven empire spanned the entire breadth of Thedas. From Tevinter to the wilds south of Ferelden. All of Thedas covered the Deep Roads, which made up the dwarven empire.

That thaig was unique, and I have no idea what they were doing. But there were no paragons, and no records. Just a lyrium idol and the profane. Considering that the idol made the exact same sound as the Joining ritual for the Wardens AND the Reaver...yes it could just be a creepy sound effect. But when you have the exact same sound effect used in three supposedly separate occasions, that sounds more like a pattern than a coincidence to me.

Both blood magic rituals related to High Dragons. One was normal and the other was an Archdemon. If the pattern fits, then the red idol is likely related to a High Dragon. Whether an archdemon or not, I don't have enough data to consider further, but the pattern fits. Until we have more data, that's as far as we can go with this.

One thing that does stand out is the darkspawn. They are drawn to the Archdemons. But WHY are they drawn? They corrupt the Old Gods, but what if they could simply corrupt any High Dragon they came across? Because they are drawn by the song (which Varic and Bartrand were able to hear under the influence of the idol), a song heard in the Joining as a Warden and a Reaver, both of which relate to the dragon, leads me to believe that the idol is most certainly related to dragons. And whatever happened in the thaig created the first darkspawn. I share Etheral's theory. The Magisters were simply the first Awakened darkspawn.

I have always been very skeptical of the Chantry. Does the Maker exist? Maybe. But is he as the Chantry says? There's a darn good chance they're misrepresenting him. The Chantry was just one of many Andrastian cults that was picked by the Orlesian Emperor. The others were either destroyed or absorbed into this one. For all we know, the Chantry could be right about the Maker, and completely wrong about the doctrine. They weren't created until 100 years AFTER Andraste died. Things were likely left out.

I mean, they cut the Canticle of Shartan for political reasons. Call it heretical now. Whose to say they didn't cut anything else out at the beginning?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

What a bad analogy. Humans didn't carve out every inch of the surface with backbreaking labor. The upper world exists because that's how it was formed. The Deep Roads exist because the dwarves made it.

The roads weren't carved out of nothing. While traveling through the Deep Roads in the first game you can clearly see they are build in natural cavern formations, complete with rivers and magma. They dwarves couldn't have created all that from a continent of solid rock.

dragonflight288 wrote...
I also know through the dwarven codexes that the Darkspawn came from
underground. That the dwarven empire spanned the entire breadth of
Thedas. From Tevinter to the wilds south of Ferelden. All of Thedas
covered the Deep Roads, which made up the dwarven empire.

One thing that does stand out is the darkspawn. They are drawn to the
Archdemons. But WHY are they drawn? They corrupt the Old Gods, but what
if they could simply corrupt any High Dragon they came across? Because
they are drawn by the song (which Varic and Bartrand were able to hear
under the influence of the idol), a song heard in the Joining as a
Warden and a Reaver, both of which relate to the dragon, leads me to
believe that the idol is most certainly related to dragons. And whatever
happened in the thaig created the first darkspawn. I share Etheral's
theory. The Magisters were simply the first Awakened darkspawn.
 

I don't see any reason to think that the song of the Lyrium Idol is the same as the song of the Old Gods.

[TEWR]

Thorin Aeducan had just said the same thing I've said on a few other threads where this popped up.

One thing that does stand out is the darkspawn. They are drawn to the Archdemons. But WHY are they drawn? They corrupt the Old Gods, but what if they could simply corrupt any High Dragon they came across? Because they are drawn by the song (which Varic and Bartrand were able to hear under the influence of the idol), a song heard in the Joining as a Warden and a Reaver, both of which relate to the dragon, leads me to believe that the idol is most certainly related to dragons. And whatever happened in the thaig created the first darkspawn. I share Etheral's theory. The Magisters were simply the first Awakened darkspawn.

The song detail is one that I have also talked about. The Darkspawn hear it, ghouls hear it, and Varric and Bartrand were able to.

Now, it's possible that only Dwarves can hear this song when they're immediately affected by the idol (and possibly normal red lyrium as well). I know Meredith was able to hear a voice, but was it a song? I do not think that was ever said anywhere. If it was, please correct me.

Since we have two instances of Dwarves hearing the song, we know that... well... Dwarves hear the song. But we have -- as far as I know -- no evidence to say that non-Dwarves can hear the song as well.

So until we find out that non-Dwarves can hear the song -- if they can hear it -- then what we have on hand strengthens my theory that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are involved with the emergence of Darkspawn.

Subject to change obviously pending more information, as DAII didn't give us much to go on.

As a dwarf, and a well-read dwarf, my theory is quite simple. Whatever the dwarves in the primeaval thaig were doing, it was completely disconnected from Kal Sharok and Orzammar. How do I know this? Because here are no statues of paragons, no records of dwarven families. Just a lot of valuables and a red lyrium idol. And the only example of red lyrium I've ever seen.

I believe Hawke can see red lyrium growing all around the Primeval Thaig as well as collect samples of red lyrium for rune-making.

However, we've only seen one idol made of red lyrium.

[TEWR]

The roads weren't carved out of nothing. While traveling through the Deep Roads in the first game you can clearly see they are build in natural cavern formations, complete with rivers and magma. They dwarves couldn't have created all that from a continent of solid rock.

Wait... what?

Not only are their ancient roads that weren't created through caverns -- and let's remember that Darkspawn dig. A LOT. -- but the Deep Roads in DAII also have ancient roads. Hell you can see that the Thaigs were carved from the rock around them and it isn't them building houses in a cavern.

I mean, it's a wonder much of the Dwarven architecture has survived for hundreds of years without maintenance. Most of it has fallen into a state of disrepair and the caverns are either Darkspawn in origin or are just a natural formation caused by the lack of Dwarven maintenance.

Deep Roads in DAO:




Deep Roads in DAII, prior to entering the Primeval Thaig:




Remember that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves pre-date the Dwarves we know of. It's entirely possible that the Dwarves originated there. Remember that you face dozens of Darkspawn prior to finding the Thaig, and as I said they dig. A lot. So the caverns we see nowadays are very likely to be Darkspawn in origin, and not Dwarven in origin.

Which makes me wonder, what if the first Dwarves were born exactly the way Oghren jested about? Born from rocks?

Obviously, over time they stopped needing to be born from rocks and all that and were born naturally, but what if that joke has some truth to the origins of Dwarves?

A few origin tales in our world have mankind being first made from sculpted mud and clay. Perhaps the Maker -- if He exists -- created Dwarves from rock?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2012 - 06:03 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What about the Dread Trenches? It doesn't look like anybody dug that entire chasm.

Or Ortan Thaig's naturally formed river?

This is what other parts of the Deep Roads look like.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 février 2012 - 05:48 .

[TEWR]

Maybe the Darkspawn dug it? Maybe that's where Urthemiel was found?

And I still maintain that the caverns we explore were dug by the Darkspawn and they lead into the old Thaigs, that have now fallen into a state of decadence and -- aside from the buildings and statues -- bear little resemblance to the Dwarven architecture that once rested within.

And you can see that those old thaigs have crumbled and collapsed, with their main entrances being unusable. There are only a few exceptions, Cadash Thaig being one of them.

Now, obviously natural riverbeds would've formed. That is how the world works.

But the Thaigs are carved by the Dwarves or made in existing caverns, joined to the Deep Roads by doorways. It's not one or the other. The Dwarves didn't only use natural caverns. The Deep Roads themselves are very intricately carved out, with Dwarven architecture all around.

And the thing to remember is that the Dwarves covered the entire underground prior to the Darkspawn's emergence, so they would've known if twisted creatures were stalking their hallowed halls. They traded with the Tevinter Imperium, the Avvars, and with themselves, so if something new popped up... they would've known about it.

EDIT: Also, can anyone explain why or how Urthemiel appears in Asunder? The wiki says it happens in the Fade during Wynne's dream.

Does this mean that Gaider considers the US the choice made for the book's canon? Is the Warden noted as being dead in Asunder?

Haven't read it, but I'm curious.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2012 - 06:31 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If the dwarves knew everything about what happened in the Deep Roads why do they not know where the darkspawn came from? The dwarven codex on Orzammar even says that at one point the existence of the darkspawn themselves were just rumors, implying that early on they might not have even known about them for sure.