2008 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

If the dwarves knew everything about what happened in the Deep Roads why do they not know where the darkspawn came from? The dwarven codex on Orzammar even says that at one point the existence of the darkspawn themselves were just rumors, implying that early on they might not have even known about them for sure.

Because they came from beneath them? And the Primeval Thaigs are below the thaigs that were actually inhabited?

Remember that we're talking about the Primeval Thaig Dwarves being the source of the mook Darkspawn. Many great cities and towns are built above other civilizations

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2012 - 06:37 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So then there still must be places deep underground to avoid notice from the dwarves then. The Orzammar Codex also says that travelers got lost and more patrols were sent out to secure the roads, so obviously they didn't have all knowledge of what went on 100% of the time on the roads.

Besides, there's an entire ecosystem underground that must have existed before the dwarves ever build anything.

[TEWR]

So then there still must be places deep underground to avoid notice from the dwarves then

To get to those places, you have to traverse through the areas that are inhabited. The thaigs, the mines, the roads, etc.

. The Orzammar Codex also says that travelers got lost and more patrols were sent out to secure the roads, so obviously they didn't have all knowledge of what went on 100% of the time on the roads.

which codex? The Darkspawn one? It doesn't say that at all. It says that the Darkspawn rose up, attacking the Thaigs. And that the Warrior caste was sent out and the threat was at first easily handled. Then when the threat became larger, the army was sent out to deal with it.

If the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were the source of the Darkspawn, then the Darkspawn would've moved up from that thaig and attacked the other Thaigs. Those Dwarves would then be dead or turned into broodmothers, and the other Dwarves would've sent their warriors to deal with it.

And even if it did say what you claim, since the Darkspawn were the problem and they kill everything they see, it makes sense that no one would have any information on the people that went lost.

They're dead. Them and any people in the nearby areas.

I don't expect the Dwarves to know what goes on below them. I do expect them to know what goes on in their level and especially when a bunch of monstrously mutated men-turned-creatures come down to their level.

I mean, you're using their ignorance of the Primeval Thaigs as evidence against them. That's flawed logic, don't ya think? They didn't know the Primeval Thaigs even existed, so of course they'd be ignorant about that. But they knew about the surface world, so they're going to keep tabs on what happens, especially given the trade they did with Tevinter and the Avvar barbarians.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2012 - 06:54 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So then there still must be places deep underground to avoid notice from the dwarves then

To get to those places, you have to traverse the areas that are inhabited.

. The Orzammar Codex also says that travelers got lost and more patrols were sent out to secure the roads, so obviously they didn't have all knowledge of what went on 100% of the time on the roads.

which codex? The Darkspawn one? It doesn't say that at all. It says that the Darkspawn rose up, attacking the Thaigs. And that the Warrior caste was sent out and the threat was at first easily handled. Then when the threat became larger, the army was sent out to deal with it.

If the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were the source of the Darkspawn, then the Darkspawn would've moved up from that thaig and attacked the other Thaigs. Those Dwarves would then be dead or turned into broodmothers, and the other Dwarves would've sent their warriors to deal with it.

And even if it did say what you claim, since the Darkspawn were the problem and they kill everything they see, it makes sense that no one would have any information on the people that went lost.

They're dead. Them and any people in the nearby areas.

I don't expect the Dwarves to know what goes on below them. I do expect them to know what goes on in their level and especially when a bunch of monstrously mutated men-turned-creatures come down to their level.

"The Memories hold no explanations for the coming of the darkspawn, only questions. At first, they were rumors, noises in the Deep Roads, a lost traveler here and there. The Warrior Caste sent men to patrol
the road, and thought the matter settled. We did not know that while we searched for them, they were engaged in a search of their own."

It's from the History of Orzammar: Part 1 Codex.

That sounds pretty clear to me that the Deep Roads are vast enough that people can escape notice in them. There would be no need to patrol the road if every part of it was inhabited.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 février 2012 - 06:54 .

[TEWR]

"The Memories hold no explanations for the coming of the darkspawn, only questions. At first, they were rumors, noises in the Deep Roads, a lost traveler here and there. The Warrior Caste sent men to patrol
the road, and thought the matter settled. We did not know that while we searched for them, they were engaged in a search of their own."

It's from the History of Orzammar: Part 1 Codex.

That sounds pretty clear to me that the Deep Roads are vast enough that people can escape notice in them. There would be no need to patrol the road if every part of it was inhabited.

You do realize that if a traveler is known to be lost.... that they were noticed to have been missing? And that the Darkspawn kill everything? The Darkspawn would've been killing pretty much anyone they came across, and those lost travelers would be dead.

And if they're dead, they're missing. And since the Dwarves obviously noticed it, I have no clue what you're trying to argue. You're using the Darkspawn's unstoppable drive to kill everything as proof of... what exactly?

Let's look at the facts here:

1) We have accounts saying the distant thaigs fell under attack by the Darkspawn. Meaning, they were getting killed
2) We have accounts saying the Darkspawn rose up from the earth. Meaning, they were Genlocks.
3) We have accounts saying the Darkspawn were causing people to go missing. Meaning, they were killed. Or, if they were women, raped and turned into broodmothers. Which is pretty much just as much of a death as being killed.

Maybe others, but those 3 facts here point us to one thing: That the Deep Roads aren't what you're claiming them to be, in that they are empty in places.

The Darkspawn -- upon possibly having emerged from the Primeval Thaig like we're discussing -- began a relentless assault on the Dwarves where people would either die or be turned into broodmothers. The Dwarves noticed this because it was unusual for thaigs to not be responding, so they sent out warriors to investigate. Those warriors began fighting the Darkspawn and easily killed them. But then the threat grew larger and the army was sent out.

You're still trying to use the ignorance of Primeval Thaigs well below the other Thaigs as justification for the Magisters scurrying into the Deep Roads and digging for Old Gods. Which is still a flawed argument imo.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2012 - 07:18 .

[colouroflife]

Here are some similarities between Anders' actions and 9/11:

1- Both parties killed many innocent people.

2- Both parties thought they were fighting against their opressors and injustices.

3- Both parties specifically targeted civilians.

4- Both parties targeted symbol buildings of their supposed enemies, Chantry, World Trade Center and Pentagon.

5- Both parties thought they were going to be heros or martyries after death.

6- Both parties planned their attacks for long.

7- For both parties that was a suicide mission. Attackers in 9/11 died instantly and Anders knew he would die in the hands of Hawke or Meredith.

I could go lenghty and into details but i won't. Anders' actions and what happened in 9/11 are very similar, almost identical. I understand, you are under a heavy media bombardment and it is hard to see the truth through this. Some of you probably think these terrorists are pure evil, which they are, and Anders is a freedom fighter, which he isn't. Both are terrorists, mass-murderers, despicable, vile, inhuman monsters. I personally condemn both incidents.

Anybody who supports Anders' actions and methods SHOULD support what happened in 9/11. These may agree or disagree with their causes but should condone and endorse, at least their methods, because they suppose killing third party, innocent civilians is a way to achieve a goal, otherwise i would call them dishonest and hypocrite.

There is nothing like " Your freedom fighter is my terrorist and my freedom fighter is not". Anybody who intentionally, specifically, conciously targets civilians to create a chaos and war ambiance is indeed a terrorist and a mass-murderer.

Is Chantry civilian? Absolutely. It is a religion organization. In dragon age world most people attend to chantries. Templars is not a military faction of this organization. One of their duties is to defend Chantry because it symbolizes the common religion. Templars is totally a military organization. Chantry has no or tiny authorization about templars' operations.

For the record, i am neither a right winger nor a Christian but agnostic if you know what it means.

A silly excuse for Anders actions is that he waited for 7 years and "pursued" a peace. " Oh, i have waited for 7 years and now i earned right to kill innocents and if i wait for another 7 years then i will gain right for genocide, yay ! ". What kind of logic this???? Seriously, what kind of?

Peace, in Anders' understanding, is everybody should agree with him and accept his wishes. Otherwise there cannot be a " peace" and Anders has right to murder everybody who disagrees with him. In a quest he even suggested Hawke to kill Thrask !

Another silly excuse is he bombed Chantry at night and there was no child around. So we should thank Anders for reducing casualties. Ohh Anders, you have such a golden heart....

In Dragon Age world, we often can see revered mothers, priestess, worshippers, men, women, children and orphaneges in chantries throughout Thedas. The Chantry in Kirkwall no different than other chantries. Also an innocent person is innocent whether he/she is a child, man, woman, teenager, puberty, older etc.

In fact Anders character is written very poorly as many characters in DA2. Anders and Justice, in Awakening, were very nice and compassionate persons. Anders loved cats and trees while Justice cared feelings of Kristoffs' wife. So two nice and caring persons merged and turned out Vengeance? One can say he saw abusive behaviours

towards mages, yes but he also witnessed atrocities committed by mages such as Grace, Tarohne and Quentin.

In Dragon Age world, templars will be always needed as long as mages exsist, otherwise it is not that hard to become another Tevinter Imperium. So should more freedom be given mages ? Absolutely but it would be almost impossible after what happened in DA2, thanks to Anders. Now the vast majority of people will fear even more from mages and support templars more than before. That means mages will be less free than in DA2. In fact i doubt i would play Dragon Age 3, if there will be such thing after DA2 disaster.

Since i won't come here again, want to tell few words for DA2. I did long for DA2 because Origins was such an epic masterpiece. While DA2 is not that bad game as standalone but if we compare it to Origins, simply very bad. My expectations were high and sadly they were not compensated.

ON the bottom line, violence and especially killing innocent people can never be a way to reach a goal, never should be. I gladly see many of you think this way. 7 years or 900 years or 90.000.000 years or your goals do not matter and do not justify your violence. Others cannot understand this and i don't know why. The right of

living is far more valuable than the right of freedom. Perhaps they do not give much importance to right of living or perhaps they are used to solve problems with violence, no idea. Or perhaps they are influenced by his appearence and unable to see the truth behind that angel face. You just can hope anybody does not act the way you think and murder your beloved ones. Try to be more empathic, reasonable, considerable and compassionate.

Good luck to all.

Modifié par colouroflife, 18 février 2012 - 07:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"The Memories hold no explanations for the coming of the darkspawn, only questions. At first, they were rumors, noises in the Deep Roads, a lost traveler here and there. The Warrior Caste sent men to patrol
the road, and thought the matter settled. We did not know that while we searched for them, they were engaged in a search of their own."

It's from the History of Orzammar: Part 1 Codex.

That sounds pretty clear to me that the Deep Roads are vast enough that people can escape notice in them. There would be no need to patrol the road if every part of it was inhabited.

You do realize that if a traveler is known to be lost.... that they were noticed to have been missing? And that the Darkspawn kill everything? The Darkspawn would've been killing pretty much anyone they came across, and those lost travelers would be dead.

And if they're dead, they're missing. And since the Dwarves obviously noticed it, I have no clue what you're trying to argue. You're using the Darkspawn's unstoppable drive to kill everything as proof of... what exactly?

Let's look at the facts here:

1) We have accounts saying the distant thaigs fell under attack by the Darkspawn. Meaning, they were getting killed
2) We have accounts saying the Darkspawn rose up from the earth. Meaning, they were Genlocks.
3) We have accounts saying the Darkspawn were causing people to go missing. Meaning, they were killed. Or, if they were women, raped and turned into broodmothers. Which is pretty much just as much of a death as being killed.

Maybe others, but those 3 facts here point us to one thing: That the Deep Roads aren't what you're claiming them to be, in that they are empty in places.

The Darkspawn -- upon possibly having emerged from the Primeval Thaig like we're discussing -- began a relentless assault on the Dwarves where people would either die or be turned into broodmothers. The Dwarves noticed this because it was unusual for thaigs to not be responding, so they sent out warriors to investigate. Those warriors began fighting the Darkspawn and easily killed them. But then the threat grew larger and the army was sent out.

You're still trying to use the ignorance of Primeval Thaigs well below the other Thaigs as justification for the Magisters scurrying into the Deep Roads and digging for Old Gods. Which is still a flawed argument imo.

I don't see it as being any more flawed than claiming that the Primeval Thaig might have created the darkspawn despite it being totally inconsistent with them. And considering Primeval Thaig was said to be in a part of the Deep Roads that even the dwarves had forgotten, I don't see the problem.

I'm not sure you understand what I was arguing. My point was that the dwarves didn't know what was going on at first. Between the size of the Deep Roads and the the fact that information doesn't travel fast, they didn't even understand that they were under attack for a while. And if the darkspawn horde can avoid notice for a while then so can a half dozen magisters.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 février 2012 - 07:48 .

[TEWR]

Last post for the night.

I don't see it as being any more flawed than claiming that the Primeval Thaig might have created the darkspawn despite it being totally inconsistent with them.

How is it inconsistent?

Because the Darkspawn avoid that place? Maybe it's due to being the source of them and it's linked to why they avoid that place out of all the others. The Darkspawn don't care one wit about anywhere else on Thedas, yet they avoid that place above all others.

And considering Primeval Thaig was said to be in a part of the Deep Roads that even the dwarves had forgotten, I don't see the problem.

The problem I have is that yes, the Primeval Thaig was forgotten to them. And it rests far below the other thaigs. So if something were to come from there, they would be taken by surprise. They wouldn't know where it came from, because they never knew where it came from except from beneath them.

But they knew about the Tevinter Imperium. They actively traded with them. If they were going to go down there, the Dwarves would know. The Deep Roads were filled with roads, mines, thaigs, and many other things. People were going back and forth in the Deep Roads.

Remember that the Dwarves' numbers were much, much larger back then. So there were more people out there. Orzammar itself boasts thousands upon thousands of Dwarves. Possibly tens of thousands.

Though, this is all moot to me since I still believe the Magisters were the first Awakened Darkspawn and wouldn't have sought out the Old Gods, simply because they couldn't hear them.

I'm not sure you understand what I was arguing. My point was that the dwarves didn't know what was going on at first. Between the size of the Deep Roads and the the fact that information doesn't travel fast, they didn't even understand that they were under attack for a while. And if the darkspawn horde can avoid notice for a while then so can a half dozen magisters.

I think they understood just fine that they were under attack. They just underestimated the scale of the attack.

That's not the same thing.

[Rifneno]

I could go lenghty and into details but i won't. Anders' actions and what happened in 9/11 are very similar, almost identical. I understand, you are under a heavy media bombardment and it is hard to see the truth through this.

The same could be said of the Chantry and **** Germany. Do you think it was a coincidence that Alrik's "Tranquil Solution" sounded a bit like "Final Solution" or that Sebastian refered to it as a "holocaust"? The fact that your main point is to draw comparisons between Anders and a very recent real life tragedy shows how well it stands on its own without pushing emotional buttons.

Anybody who supports Anders' actions and methods SHOULD support what happened in 9/11.

***. I've been on Internet forums since 1992 and I don't think I've ever heard something so asinine that wasn't clearly trolling. You should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.

Is Chantry civilian? Absolutely. It is a religion organization. In dragon age world most people attend to chantries. Templars is not a military faction of this organization. One of their duties is to defend Chantry because it symbolizes the common religion. Templars is totally a military organization. Chantry has no or tiny authorization about templars' operations.

Completely untrue.

Peace, in Anders' understanding, is everybody should agree with him and accept his wishes. Otherwise there cannot be a " peace" and Anders has right to murder everybody who disagrees with him.

"True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice." - MLK. No pun intended on the justice part.

In Dragon Age world, templars will be always needed as long as mages exsist, otherwise it is not that hard to become another Tevinter Imperium

Proof. Now.

ON the bottom line, violence and especially killing innocent people can never be a way to reach a goal, never should be. I gladly see many of you think this way. 7 years or 900 years or 90.000.000 years or your goals do not matter and do not justify your violence. Others cannot understand this and i don't know why. The right of living is far more valuable than the right of freedom.

Amazing naivety from someone that just promoted oppression for the greater good. If you think any evil empire has been put down without shedding the blood of many innocents, then you've been watching too much Hollywood garbage.
And if you had gone through what some of those mages went through, or better yet if your loved ones had gone through it, you wouldn't give a damn about the "right of living" for the people responsible. And that wasn't a question, that was a statement.

Perhaps they do not give much importance to right of living or perhaps they are used to solve problems with violence, no idea.

Perhaps you have no idea what it's like to be persecuted for your mere existance and being stuck in concentration--"Circles" for "the greater good."

Try to be more empathic, reasonable, considerable and compassionate.

When not dealing with a genocidal evil religion, sure. There's a saying... "Avoid war at all reasonable costs. When it comes to that, however, then may God have mercy on your soul, you'll find none here."

[Cody]

Ahhh I was wondering when you were gonna reply to this nut Riffykins! Which is why I just left him for you.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 18 février 2012 - 02:16 .

[Xilizhra]

And if you had gone through what some of those mages went through, or better yet if your loved ones had gone through it, you wouldn't give a damn about the "right of living" for the people responsible. And that wasn't a question, that was a statement.

Do note that templars, including Cullen and Meredith, have used this exact argument to justify themselves regarding the dangers of mages. Which could lead to something of a confusing experience for someone who had loved ones suffer from both sides.

[Cody]

Xilizhra wrote...

And if you had gone through what some of those mages went through, or better yet if your loved ones had gone through it, you wouldn't give a damn about the "right of living" for the people responsible. And that wasn't a question, that was a statement.

Do note that templars, including Cullen and Meredith, have used this exact argument to justify themselves regarding the dangers of mages. Which could lead to something of a confusing experience for someone who had loved ones suffer from both sides.

Cullen didn't use that excuse to my knowledge. He only used what he went through as an excuse and that is hardly the same since it was only one incident that he was ill prepared for since he was still a newbie Templar and didn't seem to last that long and was far from being as bad as what the Mages go through.

Meredith on the other hand can use that since her experience is much more scaring. Thing is though she was slowly losing her mind from that incident which was super sized that to the idol.

[dragonflight288]

Meredith also tried to use the fact that a bloodmage killed Hawke's mother as proof that Hawke couldn't help the mages, and that only the templars could handle it.

Especially since it was a templar who was investigating the murders in the first place. (sarcasm)

[Vit246]

I am so fracking tired of so many ignorant people having this ignorant misconception of the Chantry being this blameless innocent "civilian" thing and the Templars having nothing to do with it. And I fracking blame Bioware for deliberately promoting this complete LIE in DA2. Or maybe not deliberately, but they sure as hell barely put anything in the game that stopped players from misunderstanding and making up stuff for themselves.

Modifié par Vit246, 18 février 2012 - 05:15 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
How is it inconsistent?

Because the Darkspawn avoid that place? Maybe it's due to being the source of them and it's linked to why they avoid that place out of all the others. The Darkspawn don't care one wit about anywhere else on Thedas, yet they avoid that place above all others.

Why would the darkspawn avoid the place they spawned from? That's exactly the opposite behavior I would expect if they did come from the Primeval Thaig. The darkspawn should be most pervasive there above all other places in the world and it should be swarming with darkspawn. Instead it's filled with creatures that are totally different and attack darkspawn on sight while the Legion of the Dead says the entire region is "miraculously free of them".  The Profane appear to be totally alien to the darkspawn taint, their behavior is totally different.

It also raises the question of how genlocks could have come to be first, when we know they come from dwarven broodmothers.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The problem I have is that yes, the Primeval Thaig was forgotten to them. And it rests far below the other thaigs. So if something were to come from there, they would be taken by surprise. They wouldn't know where it came from, because they never knew where it came from except from beneath them.

But they knew about the Tevinter Imperium. They actively traded with them. If they were going to go down there, the Dwarves would know. The Deep Roads were filled with roads, mines, thaigs, and many other things. People were going back and forth in the Deep Roads.

Remember that the Dwarves' numbers were much, much larger back then. So there were more people out there. Orzammar itself boasts thousands upon thousands of Dwarves. Possibly tens of thousands.

Though, this is all moot to me since I still believe the Magisters were the first Awakened Darkspawn and wouldn't have sought out the Old Gods, simply because they couldn't hear them.

I think you're overestimating the population of Orzammar. I get the distinct impression it supposed to be dwindling to the point where many dwarves are becoming fatalistic about their chances in the war agains the darkspawn. But in any case, even back in the glory days of their empire they still only lived in cities and thaigs. Kal-Sharok is literally half a world away from Orzammar. Even assuming there are many such cities dotted across the world the sheer amount of empty space in a road that stretched from the Anderfels to Ferelden has more than enough places for people to hide, even if it was entirely an artifiical construct (which I'm still sure it isn't).

Secondly, you're making an assumption that the magisters can't hear the Old Gods. Larius says that Corpyheus can mimick the archdemons' call, so it's hardly a stretch to think he can hear it.

[Xilizhra]

Why would the darkspawn avoid the place they spawned from? That's exactly the opposite behavior I would expect if they did come from the Primeval Thaig. The darkspawn should be most pervasive there above all other places in the world and it should be swarming with darkspawn. Instead it's filled with creatures that are totally different and attack darkspawn on sight while the Legion of the Dead says the entire region is "miraculously free of them". The Profane appear to be totally alien to the darkspawn taint, their behavior is totally different.

There is one possibility: the profane are those dwarves who rebelled against whatever created the darkspawn and were walled up in rock as punishment, until they somehow fused with the rocks and broke free; they now furiously hunt all darkspawn as vengeance. But I think it's more likely that the profane's rebellion had something to do with the idol, and I don't think that's darkspawn-related. It led to a lot of demons showing up around it, and demons and darkspawn don't mix.

[Lazy Jer]

colouroflife wrote...

Here are some similarities between Anders' actions and 9/11:

No offence, but I stopped reading right there.  This thread already saw bannings over less touchy subjects.  Bringing up 9/11 is just asking for a big argument.

[ProneToGlory]

Why are we bringing 9/11 into this? Thats real life, and a touchy subject. So leave it alone.

On another note, I believe that Anders was much worse, he made it worse for one with blowing up the chantry, and kill the Grand Cleric, who was actually helping the mages as much as she could. While Meredith was wrong, and annulment was to far, after Anders blew up the Chantry he gave her the reason to, and set off a chain of events that cause city wide slaughter throughout Kirkwall!

I am a Templar supporter, but Meredith was wrong and so is the Lord Seeker. Leniance is ok, Templars cannot be Tyrants. Many forget their job is to protect Mages and Protect people from them. Locking them in their rooms abusing them is wrong, but blowing up a Chantry to start a WAR? No anders was way out of line. I killed that bastard without a second thought.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm sorry, but why is it okay to compare the Chantry to **** germany, but liking Anders to terrorists is practically anathema?

I'd say both are equally wrong.

[Lazy Jer]

Vit246 wrote...

I am so fracking tired of so many ignorant people having this ignorant misconception of the Chantry being this blameless innocent "civilian" thing and the Templars having nothing to do with it. And I fracking blame Bioware for deliberately promoting this complete LIE in DA2. Or maybe not deliberately, but they sure as hell barely put anything in the game that stopped players from misunderstanding and making up stuff for themselves.

I on the other hand am flippin' tired of people whose level of ignorance I shan't go into to avoid being insulting, trying to pin what happened in Kirkwall entirely at the feet of the chantry instead of holding at least equal blame on the Templar Order for setting up a system where one person, the knight-commander, had too much unchecked power and not enough clearly-defined rules about how to handle a situation like Kirkwall.

Truth be told I think that the Circle/Templar system, in order to work, had to have a system of checks and balances attached to it.  The Circle of Magi should have been able to have more power to check the power of the Templar Order and the Chantry, The Templar Order should be able to check the power of the Chantry and the Circle of Magi, and the Chantry should be able to check the power of the Circle of Magi and the Templar Order.  That way with three different organization checking each other's power no one leader or organization can step too far out of line without being corrected.

People get on Elthina's case for not doing more, and yes she should have, but it's entirely possible she didn't know things had gotten that bad in the Circle, because First Enchanter Orsino was being denied access to her in order to air out his grievences (we see this at least once in the endgame.)

[Xilizhra]

"Tranquil Solution," anyone? That at least was a deliberate move on part of the writers.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 février 2012 - 06:57 .

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm sorry, but why is it okay to compare the Chantry to **** germany, but liking Anders to terrorists is practically anathema?

I'd say both are equally wrong.

I don't think that's appropriate either firstly.

Second comparing Anders actions to terrorism in general is fine.  It's when you bring up 9/11 specifically that things get iffy, in my opinion.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Tranquil Solution," anyone? That at least was a deliberate move on part of the writers.

Except of course that the "Tranquil Solution" was rejected by the Chantry... The only simile you are supposed to make here, is between the Tranquil Solution and the Final Solution only, which is obvious even.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not only was the Tranquil solution rejected by both Meredith and the Divine, Sir Alrik was disliked by both templars and mages alike. If the player is intended to take anything away from that quest at all I'd think it is that the Chantry is explicitly not like **** Germany.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Why would the darkspawn avoid the place they spawned from? That's exactly the opposite behavior I would expect if they did come from the Primeval Thaig.

Well I disagree and I stick to my theory that since the Primeval Thaig(s) are the only places the Darkspawn avoid, the two are connected. 

Maybe they don't touch it because they revere it and guard the area. I mean, you do fight Darkspawn near the general area in both Act 1 and Act 3.

Maybe they consider it a sacred place.

Though I also believe that the Architect and the Disciples can be trusted and that they didn't have anything to do with the Darkspawn's presence there in Act 3. Maybe like so many other things, the mindless Darkspawn guard that area and don't go near it because of an instinctual reverence to it.

The darkspawn should be most pervasive there above all other places in the world and it should be swarming with darkspawn. Instead it's filled with creatures that are totally different and attack darkspawn on sight while the Legion of the Dead says the entire region is "miraculously free of them".  The Profane appear to be totally alien to the darkspawn taint, their behavior is totally different.

So? There's nothing saying that the Darkspawn and the Profane can't both have been there. Maybe the Profane and the Darkspawn fought each other and the Darkspawn are afraid of the Profane. Maybe the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were dabbling in matters that other Primeval Thaig Dwarves didn't like, and they fought. As a result, the Primeval Thaig Dwarves became Profane after being sealed away, crying out to their gods for help.

I think you're assuming that there's only one Primeval Thaig, which is wrong.

Your Majesty,

It's difficult getting a straight answer out of the scavenger. These sods get themselves so blighted they can't think straight, much less keep spit in their mouths. He says, however, that he's gone down into parts of the Deep Roads that are so old that our people forgot them long before the Blight even happened.

He spoke of great statues and temples--temples! He spoke of things that could have only been made of magic and of impossible ruins untouched by darkspawn. He described creatures the likes of which we've never seen.

None of it's possible, of course. I've conferred with the Shaper and he says the Memories date back to the founding of the first thaig--what could have come before that? Yes, we're unable to explore these depths the scavenger spoke of because of the darkspawn, but surely the Memories would speak of such places if they existed.

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.

— Excerpt from a report sealed in the Orzammar royal archives by order of King Annalar Geldinblade in 8:48 Blessed. [/i]


Because this was something sealed in the Orzammar archives during the Blessed Age, and because it would be impossible for any Dwarf to go from Kirkwall to Orzammar without getting killed by Darkspawn, pretty much asserts that there are more Primeval Thaigs out there. One being near Orzammar.

It also raises the question of how genlocks could have come to be first, when we know they come from dwarven broodmothers.

Considering we're talking about the Primeval Thaig Dwarves being the source of the Darkspawn and the Genlocks being the first in existence, I don't see what the question is.

Unless you're thinking that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were all guys, in which case I have to say.... what?

Maybe the Primeval Thaig Dwarves did something that went horribly awry and the female Dwarves became severely sick (tainted), and began to leave the Thaig. And maybe those same Dwarven females became broodmothers somewhere. Maybe in a mine where the veins were mined dry and was now useless.

My whole theory is about the Primeval Thaig Dwarves being responsible for the Darkspawn, so I really don't see the problem. I don't know how, and I never really claimed to know how they were responsible. Since DAII gave us very limited information, I do not have much to go on. But I still believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are the source of the Darkspawn using what information I do have. As I said on the previous page or two pages ago, it will change accordingly when more information is presented.

You don't have to believe it, and that's fine. But I do.

Hell, maybe the first Darkspawn were created through another means, but the Genlocks knew through their manner of instinct that broodmothers would create more Darkspawn faster then the original means and began creating broodmothers and Darkspawn now come that way.

Maybe Darkspawn are a failed attempt at Golems that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were working on? You can find Golems in the actual Thaig itself, which I found to be really strange.

Though, I don't believe the Darkspawn are failed Golems, but meh.

I think you're overestimating the population of Orzammar.

 
The cutscene displaying Orzammar's army marching to Denerim shows thousands and thousands of soldiers. If there are thousands and thousands of soldiers marching to Denerim, then we can assume that there are even more Dwarves remaining in the city.

Especially since it would be foolish for everyone to go marching to the city, since they also need to ensure that Orzammar doesn't fall to whatever Darkspawn remained in the Deep Roads prior to the Battle of Denerim.

I get the distinct impression it supposed to be dwindling to the point where many dwarves are becoming fatalistic about their chances in the war agains the darkspawn.

I don't think their numbers are as small as you think. Certainly, there aren't as many Dwarves as there once was, but I think you're really trying to sell the Dwarves short.
 

But in any case, even back in the glory days of their empire they still only lived in cities and thaigs. Kal-Sharok is literally half a world away from Orzammar. Even assuming there are many such cities dotted across the world the sheer amount of empty space in a road that stretched from the Anderfels to Ferelden has more than enough places for people to hide, even if it was entirely an artifiical construct (which I'm still sure it isn't).

Just so you know, each lesser Thaig would be likened to a minor city/small town/village, while the greater Thaigs were obviously expansive cities. And the codex entry for Valdasine says that prior to the Darkspawn the Dwarven cities wound throughout the Earth, and that House Valdasine single-handedly kept the empire supplied with lyrium. Which requires a lot of trade expeditions to be moving throughout the empire constantly, if not near constantly.

I am still unsure of what you're trying to prove. The road from Kal-Sharok to Orzammar is empty because of the Darkspawn, not because the Dwarves don't pay attention.

It's going to be easy to hide in the empty roads now because they're literally abandoned by the Dwarves. Forgotten and lost to the vestiges of time.

It seems like you're trying to say that because the Deep Roads are empty now, they were easily hidable in hundreds of years ago when the Dwarves were at their prime.

Secondly, you're making an assumption that the magisters can't hear the Old Gods. Larius says that Corpyheus can mimick the archdemons' call, so it's hardly a stretch to think he can hear it.

If it turns out the Architect is one of the original Magisters like I and many other people believe, then we'll know that Corypheus can't hear the call as well. You know, since the Architect said he can't hear the Old Gods' call and he wants to make the Darkspawn like he is.

Remember that the Awakened Darkspawn hold sway over the mindless Darkspawn because the mindless ones fear the Awakened ones. It's not a stretch to think that the reason why Larius calls Corypheus' call an imitation of the Archdemon's one is because of that fact.

The Archdemon commands vast numbers of Darkspawn.

The Awakened Darkspawn can also command numerous Darkspawn. Not as much as an Archdemon, but still a fairly large number.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2012 - 08:33 .