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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm guessing it was a dark and terrible time in general.

Probably. The Inquisition probably used some very horrific methods to gain results. It's even possible that they killed mages that weren't blood mages or abominations, but called them such.

Do we happen to know how successful they were? We know they were hunting those groups, but did they actually make a dent in the evil plaguing the land? Or did they only manage to kill one blood mage a year?

 
The Inquisition was doing what no one else dared to do in those days. They went against the abominations, maleficars and other evils of Thedas. I don't understand why people are trying to put them in a bad light (probably because they liken them to the Inquisition of our world). I can't talk for their succes rate, but I dare say that they were working for the good of humanity.
 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

And the cultists could've been both dragon, demon and Andrastian cultists. I'm guessing it is the two first.

Maybe even Darkspawn cults. I recall reading that those types of cults did exist.

...makes you wonder how stupid a person has to be to revere Darkspawn.

We got scientologists in our world..... Just saying.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe not in the entirety of time, no. But it could've been avoided in recent years, and given Justinia enough time to go through with her reforms of the Circle system, and improved the lot of mages, and decreased the powers of the Templars.

Worthless. It's simply prettier oppression.

I disagree. If their goal is noble, it is only their way of achieving it that has been corrupted. Cure the corruption and you cure the organization.

The Templar Order consists of more cancer than healthy tissue. To purge the corruption would destroy it altogether.

Sadly, the Templars probably think the same way about mages.... Long-term peace is best achieved with diplomacy. If you have to fight for peace, it means you've already started a war for it, and you have failed your intend. If you try with diplomacy first, but the other party is unreasonable, war is the final option that sadly is available (well, surrender is technically also one, but I doubt that apepals to many).

There's one important difference: the templars can't possibly hope to succeed. New mages are born every day, but if the Order dies, it dies. A similar group could arise later, but it could also be a less evil one, and that's one of my own goals.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe not in the entirety of time, no. But it could've been avoided in recent years, and given Justinia enough time to go through with her reforms of the Circle system, and improved the lot of mages, and decreased the powers of the Templars.

Worthless. It's simply prettier oppression.

 
Shouldn't you wait and see what those reforms would entice, before you speak in ignorance? For all we know the reforms would have meant for Mages to self-govern with Templars only kept to enforce the law. Tevinter standards.

Xilizhra wrote... 

I disagree. If their goal is noble, it is only their way of achieving it that has been corrupted. Cure the corruption and you cure the organization.

The Templar Order consists of more cancer than healthy tissue. To purge the corruption would destroy it altogether.

 
Same could be said about the mages. I disagree with both statements.

Xilizhra wrote... 

Sadly, the Templars probably think the same way about mages.... Long-term peace is best achieved with diplomacy. If you have to fight for peace, it means you've already started a war for it, and you have failed your intend. If you try with diplomacy first, but the other party is unreasonable, war is the final option that sadly is available (well, surrender is technically also one, but I doubt that apepals to many).

There's one important difference: the templars can't possibly hope to succeed. New mages are born every day, but if the Order dies, it dies. A similar group could arise later, but it could also be a less evil one, and that's one of my own goals.

Future generations of mages are of little consequence to the Templars right now. It is only the mages alive right now that are rebelling. Once they have been culled, the Templars can go back to their old system.

[Xilizhra]

Shouldn't you wait and see what those reforms would entice, before you speak in ignorance? For all we know the reforms would have meant for Mages to self-govern with Templars only kept to enforce the law. Tevinter standards.

Yes, but that would require an organization with a great deal of power wholly voluntarily relinquishing much of it, something that has happened, if I recall correctly, pretty much never.

Same could be said about the mages. I disagree with both statements.

Look how easily the templars left the Chantry because they felt slaughter was more important than loyalty.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Inquisition was doing what no one else dared to do in those days. They went against the abominations, maleficars and other evils of Thedas. I don't understand why people are trying to put them in a bad light (probably because they liken them to the Inquisition of our world). I can't talk for their succes rate, but I dare say that they were working for the good of humanity.

It's just a guess. While I don't know whether their methods were benign or malevolent, I do consider evil methods to be the more likely scenario.

I mean, if their methods were benign, would the Chantry have really cared about wanting to bring them under their banner?

But like I said, I don't know what their methods were but I do believe their methods weren't all that great.

Who knows? It could've varied between certain people. Maybe one guy heading up a squad used horrific methods while someone else used decent methods.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 février 2012 - 03:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but that would require an organization with a great deal of power wholly voluntarily relinquishing much of it, something that has happened, if I recall correctly, pretty much never.

 
Half of the royal families in Europe gave up their power willingly. Same about the Catholic church giving up much of its power on its own, and many Knightly Orders serving it. It happens. There are of course always underlining reasons for them to do so.

Xilizhra wrote... 

Look how easily the templars left the Chantry because they felt slaughter was more important than loyalty.

The Templars left the Chantry, because they felt that the Chantry was in breach with the accord they signed, when they allowed the mages to rebel.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Templars left the Chantry, because they felt that the Chantry was in breach with the accord they signed, when they allowed the mages to rebel.

God forbid anyone attempt to break a contract that grants a group of drug-addled zealots to go on a murderous rampage.

[Cody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Either your purposely acting daft, or are daft. I was speaking of the slavery of black people in NA. Not hard to understand. Same goes for the Jewish during WWII and back in the day of Mosos. The Jews may not have fought back the ****s(atleast most that were not in the army didn't) but it was due to what was happening to them(among other things) that caused WWII. 

 
Hmm, last I checked the abolition didn't end the oppression of the afro-american (there is a difference between african and afro-american... Look it up). But it was a long and slow process which is still going on today. And again, the afro-americans never revolted. If you are trying to pin the american civil-war as a revolutionary war, then you are an idiot....

About the Jew slaves of Egypt: I'm not about to use the bible as any sort of historical. Suffice it to say that the Jewish exodus resulted in a nation where, oddly enough, jews ruled supreme. Luckily the Jews at least had enough sense to leave Egypt, because I can tell you, had they remained in Egypt, it would have ended only with the destruction of either their own people, or the Egyptians.

About the Jews in WW2: WW2 was NOT started because of what was happening to the Jews within **** Germany, despite what popular belief may say. The mass killings of Jews didn't start until 1941 where the War had already been going for a while. No nation gave two pots of ****** about what germany was doing to the Jews within their own borders. WW2 was started because of the threat Germany and its highly aggressive expansionism psoed to other nations.
Hence again: If you are trying to pin WW2 as a revolutionary war for the Jews, then you are an idiot....

CodyMelch wrote... 

I was speaking of specifically of Libya. You know, the area that Gandaffi ruled over before he gone and got himself blown up? Eygypt is the same thing. The people caused enough damage that the dictator decided to up and leave. That is when the army moved in and immediatly took control, thus starting yet another fight. 

 
If you are speaking of Libya then you would know that their revolutionary war ended with Gadaffi's death. And that they are now trying to establish a new form of government, which may take a while. Or it will just a be a new military dictator, which will result in the same (or morek) oppression of the people. Again, proving my statement correct.
Same goes for Egypt, and possibly Syria in time.

CodyMelch wrote... 

You weren't quote Pntiff, but his quote was directly in the person you were trying to reply to quote. Having his quotein the same reply is going to make it look like you were replying to the subject itself. Take his reply out and only quote the person you are replying too. It isn't rocket science. Hell it isn't even 2+2. Again you are either purposely trying to act like an air head and are one masterful troll or...well....

 
Even if I were referring to the subject of rape, instead of the general oppression in the Circle. How does anyone twist the words: "Indeed. The Templars should've been far more strict before the amges established their underground" to mean: "Yeah!!!1oneeleven.... The Templars should've, like, totally raped some more biatch mages becauise that would like totally rock!!"?

All I said was: That if the Tempalrs had been more strict, regarding the rules to govern mages, AND to govern themselves, then none of the issues in Kirkwall would have ever happened.

So perhaps you should get of your intellectual (or lack thereof) high horse, and work abit more on trying to add 2+2 yourself, cause apparently you are having a hard time with it...

I guess I should have remembered who I was talking to. I need to be more specific for you to atleast SOMEWHAT understand that when I said African I meant African Americans. And I was never trying to say that was the sole reason. There is rarely a sole reason for a war. But it was one of the reasons yes. And seeing as African Americans have the same rights as everyone else, it worked.

And again, if you actually read what I said (you know, the part where I said; "among other things") Then you would see that I did not say it was the sole reason. But one of the main reasons.

How does having the military ruling over the nation after the dictator being over thrown prove your statement? It doesn't. It is not a group of people that rebeled and are now oppressing the people, it would be the military that was stationed there that may or may not have helped either side. Just came in and ruled. Has nothing to do with your arguement.

Perhaps you should learn to read better and quit grasping for straws? And learn how to quote people while your at it for it is obvious that you are having a hard time with it.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 20 février 2012 - 03:47 .

[Xilizhra]

Half of the royal families in Europe gave up their power willingly. Same about the Catholic church giving up much of its power on its own, and many Knightly Orders serving it. It happens. There are of course always underlining reasons for them to do so.

Only when the political situation made keeping their power far more trouble than it was worth. The Chantry won't reach that point without the mage rebellion.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Irrelevant. The templars are a fundamentally evil and corrupt organization, and no amount of internal reforms can fix them. The order must be wiped out of existence, voluntarily or otherwise, for true peace to be achieved.

<3

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And, unless the cultists were dragon cultists then hunting them down was unnecessary, as the Andrastian religion was one of a handful of Andrastian cults.

Even then, it's possible not all dragon cults are evil like the one in Haven. If the dragon has degree of intelligence...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Templar Order consists of more cancer than healthy tissue. To purge the corruption would destroy it altogether.

*wipes away a tear*

CodyMelch wrote...

I guess I should have remembered who I was talking to.

QFT. Guys, there's a reason I don't debate with Emp 99% of the time. It's not that I'm afraid he'll own me. That stange growth on the back of my neck stopped getting bigger when I stopped too!

[Cody]

Rifneno wrote...


Even then, it's possible not all dragon cults are evil like the one in Haven. If the dragon has degree of intelligence...

Archedemon. Granted the taint may have really messed it up, but from the telepathic conversations it was having with the dark spawn in Darkspawn chronicles...it sure as hell isn't dumb.

Then there are the dragons in Skyrim you need to consider as well!

[Xilizhra]

Even then, it's possible not all dragon cults are evil like the one in Haven. If the dragon has degree of intelligence...

Do recall that the Haven dragon cult was Andrastian.

[Dr. wonderful]

...I'm highly surpised that this thread didn't go the way of the Incest Hawke threads.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Half of the royal families in Europe gave up their power willingly. Same about the Catholic church giving up much of its power on its own, and many Knightly Orders serving it. It happens. There are of course always underlining reasons for them to do so.

Only when the political situation made keeping their power far more trouble than it was worth. The Chantry won't reach that point without the mage rebellion.

Also, note that the ones that did attempt to hold onto absolute power generally ended up dragging their countries into revolutions, which weakened the country as a whole, led to their exile, and sometimes ended with them losing their heads. Of course, you could make the argument that the aristocrats/people/masses/etc. shouldn't have rebelled in the first place, rather than the monarch compromising on the limits of his power. It's an argument few would agree with and those kings that generally adhered to this line of thinking ended up dead.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

Even then, it's possible not all dragon cults are evil like the one in Haven. If the dragon has degree of intelligence...

Not really. From what I've read, all dragon cults consume the blood of the dragons. As a result, they eventually go insane.

Insane people are not good people.

Well, okay that's a lie. I'm arguably insane -- I consider myself such -- but I'm a good person.

But I mean like "Hehehehe let me carve you up to see your pretty insides, my sweet little darling!"

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...


So they disapprove of the Tranquil Solution, not to mention rape and Alrik's various other abuses of power, but not enough to actually do anything about it.

Gosh, what saints.

Do we know they knew about the rapes?  Or anything else for that matter.  We know that Alrik wrote a letter detailing his solution, and that it was rejected.  I kinda doubt he'd wrote "P.S. I've been raping tranquil babes, you should try it sometime."  He probably kept his abuses of power well hidden.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 20 février 2012 - 08:32 .

[Lazy Jer]

Rifneno wrote...

As others have already said, it's well established in DAO that the Chantry controls the lyrium. It doesn't matter that it wasn't mentioned in DA2 any more than it doesn't matter DA2 doesn't tell us what the Wardens' Joining ritual is. It's already established, and a slight miswording by a jonesing (sp?) drug addict doesn't change that.

That's not what I'm saying, though.  What I'm saying is there's a difference between controlling the lyrium trade and using the lyruim trade for control.

I have yet to see conculsive proof that Grand Cleric Elthina was secretly controlling Meredeth from behind the scenes.

"Conclusive proof" is a subjective term. Look at the infamous "bloody glove" from the OJ Simpson debacle. So really all you're saying is that you don't believe she was. And that's fine, but really doesn't mean much since all we're doing is debating opinions anyway.
Regardless, I don't think anyone (or at least most people that dislike Elthina) is saying she was secretly controlling Meredith. What we're saying is that authorities can't be neutral. If someone is mugging you on the street and another civilian ignores it, that's being neutral. If that person was an on-duty cop, that's not being neutral because it's his job to stop that kind of thing. A cop isn't allowed to say "this isn't my fight, bye" while people murder each other. When an authority figure ignores their job, they are siding with the more powerful party by de facto. And I seriously doubt Elthina didn't understand that, even if most of the people here don't. By being "neutral," she's siding with Meredith while saving face with people who buy her "sweet old lady" crap.

While I do acknowledge that her lack of willingness to reign in her own dog is a proximate cause to Meredeth getting out of control, I still believe there's a matter of scale.  Her nieve attitude about "mothers being gentle guiding hands." which I managed to dig up by talking to her in DA2 may have been a contribuing factor, the fact is that the Templar Order itself is more to blame for the f-ups in Kirkwall then the Chantry is. 

While we're on the subject of opinions.  It's mine, the more that I think of it, that the reason Elthina was so unwilling to take a direct hand is because her entire tenure as Grand Cleric had probably gone untried by such a serious problem as Meredeth.  She'd probably used that "gentle guiding hand" philosophy her entire time as Grand Cleric and it had probably worked more often then not.  What I'm saying is that she was negligent, but that doesn't qualify her as Tyrant of the Year.  I think she and through her the Chantry takes too much blame for Meredeth and the Templar Order.

Edit: "Grand Wizard Elthina?" That's low...even for you that's low.

I'll take that as a compliment.  And nice, I was wondering when someone would catch that.  I've said it several times before and nobody ever remarked.  'twas heartbreaking!

Seriously?  No one else picked up on that?

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do recall that the Haven dragon cult was Andrastian.

I'm not sure they count.  In fact I'm pretty sure they don't.

[DKJaigen]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Do recall that the Haven dragon cult was Andrastian.

I'm not sure they count.  In fact I'm pretty sure they don't.

They are Andrastian. Corrupted to be sure but they are Andrastian. It may be even purer then the current Chantry as they dont have to deal with a millennium of politics to corrupt their faith

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Do recall that the Haven dragon cult was Andrastian.

I'm not sure they count.  In fact I'm pretty sure they don't.

They are Andrastian. Corrupted to be sure but they are Andrastian. It may be even purer then the current Chantry as they dont have to deal with a millennium of politics to corrupt their faith

Nope. They just have to deal with their belief being corrupted into a dragon cult. Originally their faith in Andraste may indeed have been the most pure of all the Andrastian Cults. It isn't anymore though, not by a long shot.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Do recall that the Haven dragon cult was Andrastian.

I'm not sure they count.  In fact I'm pretty sure they don't.

They are Andrastian. Corrupted to be sure but they are Andrastian. It may be even purer then the current Chantry as they dont have to deal with a millennium of politics to corrupt their faith

Nope. They just have to deal with their belief being corrupted into a dragon cult. Originally their faith in Andraste may indeed have been the most pure of all the Andrastian Cults. It isn't anymore though, not by a long shot.

As far as we know they only replaced their figurehead with a dragon . their beleive may be authenctic however

[Xilizhra]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Do recall that the Haven dragon cult was Andrastian.

I'm not sure they count.  In fact I'm pretty sure they don't.

I think the only real doctrinal difference is that Haven had male priests.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


So they disapprove of the Tranquil Solution, not to mention rape and Alrik's various other abuses of power, but not enough to actually do anything about it.

Gosh, what saints.

Do we know they knew about the rapes?  Or anything else for that matter.  We know that Alrik wrote a letter detailing his solution, and that it was rejected.  I kinda doubt he'd wrote "P.S. I've been raping tranquil babes, you should try it sometime."  He probably kept his abuses of power well hidden.

Rape is known to be an occurence in all of the Circles. There's no excuse for not being aware of Alrik. Meredith and Elthina were either aware and chose to ignore it, which makes them despicable, or they weren't aware and made no further effort to investigate a man who was clearly unhinged, which makes them incompetent.

[Rifneno]

CodyMelch wrote...

Archedemon. Granted the taint may have really messed it up, but from the telepathic conversations it was having with the dark spawn in Darkspawn chronicles...it sure as hell isn't dumb.

An 'old god', yes. Flemeth also, provided she isn't simply an untainted old god herself. We don't know what the old gods really were, but they appeared physically as dragons so they could lead a dragon cult. As the saying goes, "history is written by the winner" so it's possible that the dragon gods weren't inherently evil even if the culture that worshipped them at the time was.

Dr. wonderful wrote...

...I'm highly surpised that this thread didn't go the way of the Incest Hawke threads.

Ugh. It sounds like I missed a great Bethany thread. It still makes me want to stab a templar that they made the only female group member I could even RP a character with into the protagonist's sister. Maddening!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not really. From what I've read, all dragon cults consume the blood of the dragons. As a result, they eventually go insane.

Insane people are not good people.

Well, okay that's a lie. I'm arguably insane -- I consider myself such -- but I'm a good person.

But I mean like "Hehehehe let me carve you up to see your pretty insides, my sweet little darling!"

"Insane" is also a relative term. In fact it's one of the most malleable terms I can think of. The Haven cultists didn't strike me as insane in the least.

Lazy Jer wrote...

Do we know they knew about the rapes? Or anything else for that matter. We know that Alrik wrote a letter detailing his solution, and that it was rejected. I kinda doubt he'd wrote "P.S. I've been raping tranquil babes, you should try it sometime." He probably kept his abuses of power well hidden.

Oh goodie. The plausible deniability thing again. Hey, do we know that Quentin murdered all those women? Maybe he was just courting them with the flowers, and they were so taken by his charm that they died of heartattacks!

That's not what I'm saying, though. What I'm saying is there's a difference between controlling the lyrium trade and using the lyruim trade for control.

And the Chantry did both. They have for hundreds of years. If Elthina gave the inmate the keys to the asylum for some reason, that's completely on her head.

While I do acknowledge that her lack of willingness to reign in her own dog is a proximate cause to Meredeth getting out of control, I still believe there's a matter of scale. Her nieve attitude about "mothers being gentle guiding hands." which I managed to dig up by talking to her in DA2 may have been a contribuing factor, the fact is that the Templar Order itself is more to blame for the f-ups in Kirkwall then the Chantry is.

If you take a vicious attack dog into a playground and then let it free without restraints, it's your fault when it starts making confetti out of the kids.

While we're quoting Elthina, how about when she says she doesn't agree with Meredith's methods but magic allows abuses beyond the scope of morals? I paraphrase since I haven't played the game in a while, but that was the gist. Personally I think she should experience firsthand all the abuses that are possible without magic so she can see how little difference there is.

Seriously? No one else picked up on that?

I doubt most people know what it means. Most parts of the US are mercifully free of any noticable KKK presence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Do recall that the Haven dragon cult was Andrastian.

I'm not sure they count.  In fact I'm pretty sure they don't.

I think the only real doctrinal difference is that Haven had male priests.

And, well.... You know... They worship a dragon...