2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

An 'old god', yes. Flemeth also, provided she isn't simply an untainted old god herself. We don't know what the old gods really were, but they appeared physically as dragons so they could lead a dragon cult. As the saying goes, "history is written by the winner" so it's possible that the dragon gods weren't inherently evil even if the culture that worshipped them at the time was.

Well, they did seem to trick the magisters into becoming darkspawn, which seems like kind of a dick move.

Ugh. It sounds like I missed a great Bethany thread. It still makes me want to stab a templar that they made the only female group member I could even RP a character with into the protagonist's sister. Maddening!

Priestly shut them down rather quickly. Which I agree is a shame, because I don't believe incest is inherently harmful, and both Hawkes are capable of consent... but I digress.

"Insane" is also a relative term. In fact it's one of the most malleable terms I can think of. The Haven cultists didn't strike me as insane in the least.

There are also numerous reavers in Kirkwall, and I don't think all of them are insane. Drinking dragon's blood does give you ancestral memories or something, I think, but doesn't make you crazy.

I doubt most people know what it means. Most parts of the US are mercifully free of any noticable KKK presence.

I don't think Grand Wizard fits. She's more like a corrupt governor letting the actual one run around rampant.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, they did seem to trick the magisters into becoming darkspawn, which seems like kind of a dick move.

Assuming they did. There could be any number of explanations for what happened. Maybe the dragons didn't know what the deal was with the Golden/Black City. Maybe the communication telling them to do it wasn't really from the dragons but rather an enemy of the magisters. For example, I imagine the highest priests of the dragons are in quite a position of power. Perhaps by telling the top magisters that their gods told them to go into the G/BC they assumed the magisters wouldn't survive and they could usurp power of the empire, but it backfired when the magisters "survived". Perhaps the G/BC was the home of the dragon gods and what they were really trying to do was to get their most powerful followers there to help against some unknown threat, but the magisters arrived too late. In fact, this is one of the best spinoff mysteries of the darkspawn. How did the old gods become imprisoned deep in the earth? The Chantry claims that it was the Maker and that's the only in-game theory we've been given. But the writers have explicitly told us that they plan to never answer the question of whether the Maker exists. So either an important part of the mystery will be left unsolved forever (which would be more than a little craptastic), or the Maker isn't responsible for their imprisonment. So... who or what is? ... I digress, sorry. My point is, there's countless possiblities that could explain that without the dragon gods being inherently evil.

Priestly shut them down rather quickly. Which I agree is a shame, because I don't believe incest is inherently harmful, and both Hawkes are capable of consent... but I digress.

It is when a child is a possible outcome. Anyway, the biggest shame is that they won't let us have a motivational thread. The ME one is one of the greatest things on the internet.

I don't think Grand Wizard fits. She's more like a corrupt governor letting the actual one run around rampant.

True... I suppose it's because I had a different comparison in mind for Meredith.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


So they disapprove of the Tranquil Solution, not to mention rape and Alrik's various other abuses of power, but not enough to actually do anything about it.

Gosh, what saints.

Do we know they knew about the rapes?  Or anything else for that matter.  We know that Alrik wrote a letter detailing his solution, and that it was rejected.  I kinda doubt he'd wrote "P.S. I've been raping tranquil babes, you should try it sometime."  He probably kept his abuses of power well hidden.

Rape is known to be an occurence in all of the Circles. There's no excuse for not being aware of Alrik. Meredith and Elthina were either aware and chose to ignore it, which makes them despicable, or they weren't aware and made no further effort to investigate a man who was clearly unhinged, which makes them incompetent.

A problem with the story is that we never see Alrik outside of when he's with his rapist buddies in the tunnels under the Gallows. I mean, if I met a man like that, with his creepy stare, odd behavior, and the presence of mentally compromised females telling their known lovers they "belong" to him, I would look into his activities. The fact that no one does brings me to one of three possibilities: a.) He was so good at brown-nosing his higher-ups that they lost sight of the fact that, at any other time, he was a creepy and unhinged bastard; b.) They didn't know, which seems unlikely since Alrik seemed to hold command, and had quite a few templars with him, and Tranquil mages openly implied his depradations; or c.) They didn't care.

[Lazy Jer]

Rifneno wrote...

Oh goodie. The plausible deniability thing again. Hey, do we know that Quentin murdered all those women? Maybe he was just courting them with the flowers, and they were so taken by his charm that they died of heartattacks!

I'm not doubting whether or not Alrik did what he did.  The implication was quiet clear.  Clear enough that I have no doubt that he was doing it.  What I'm saying is that I don't think anyone else knew.  His actions weren't being hidden by other members of the Templar Order, because they didn't know.  It's the entire reason he went after the Tranquil.  He knew that, without emotions, they would "do whatever he asked."  It's the entire reason why I wanted to raise the character from the dead in game so I could kill him again.

And the Chantry did both. They have for hundreds of years. If Elthina gave the inmate the keys to the asylum for some reason, that's completely on her head.

This is probably something I'm going to need to read up on in the codexes (which I tend to skip), or get further along in DA:Assunder before commenting further on.  But what I'm saying is that I don't think Elthina herself was dangling lyruim over the heads of the Temps.

If you take a vicious attack dog into a playground and then let it free without restraints, it's your fault when it starts making confetti out of the kids.

While we're quoting Elthina, how about when she says she doesn't agree with Meredith's methods but magic allows abuses beyond the scope of morals? I paraphrase since I haven't played the game in a while, but that was the gist. Personally I think she should experience firsthand all the abuses that are possible without magic so she can see how little difference there is.

Regarding the dog anaology, the difference is that a vicious attack dog lacks the requisite intelligence to be held accountable for it's actions.  Knight-Commander Meredeth isn't a dog.  She is a human being and needs to be held more accountable for the problems in Kirkwall then Elthina.  The direct fault needs to go to Meredeth, whereas Elthina's fault is indirect.

That comment of hers about magic allowing abuses beyond the scope of morals is the entire basis of the debate on the neccessity or lack thereof of the Circle/Templar system.  What she's saying there is that one mage has the ability to melt the faces of an entire village of non-mages if they so choose.   The Chantry takes a lot of flack for it's possition on magic and mages, but let's face it, mages can be dangerous.

Seriously? No one else picked up on that?

I doubt most people know what it means. Most parts of the US are mercifully free of any noticable KKK presence.

Ironically the first time I heard the term was while watching a Richard Pryor flick.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rape is known to be an occurence in all of the Circles. There's no excuse for not being aware of Alrik. Meredith and Elthina were either aware and chose to ignore it, which makes them despicable, or they weren't aware and made no further effort to investigate a man who was clearly unhinged, which makes them incompetent.

There's a difference between knowing that it happens and knowing who is doing specifically.  As I said before, Alrick's choice of victims was all about ability to cover his own reprehensible butt. 

Now regarding investigations, Grand Cleric Elthina doesn't have a direct hand in the day-to-day runnings of the Templar Order and probably only visited the gallows on occasion if at all it's entirely reasonable for her to not be aware of it.  Knight-Commander Meredeth...well that's a harder pill to swallow, sure.  She is charged with the day to day running of the Templar Order and the Gallows.  Any complaints that arrise or reports of Alrik's actions would have to get to her if not directly then through chain of command.  That being said, again, there's no reason to assume that she knew about it.  It's not an unreasonable leap of faith to assume that Alrik may have managed to keep this from anyone, Templar and mage alike.

[Cody]

There is something wrong with your argument about why Elthina should not be held responsible there Jer Jer. Anyone with half a brain could see that Meredeth was going Coo Coo for coe coe puffs. Combined with turning mages into tranquil even after completing there Harrowing and over such small things, that all the mages made sure to complain about Elthina NEVER. EVER. EVEN ONCE warned Meredeth to calm the hell down. To warn her not to do these mortifying and illogical actions. She had the power to have Meredeth replaced. But never did, not even tried to investigate into the complaints the mages gave. While all the while giving the mages false hope. Even Cullen called her cruel for it. CULLEN of all people. It goes to show that she Either A. Condoned her actions. B. Didn't care. Or C. was so incompetent that she never noticed what was going on(but seeing as the mages, including the first enchanter were complaining about it quite openly. I highly doubt it. I don't doubt her incompetence though). I think it is a combination of the three to be honest.

She is to blame for Meredeth. She chose to do NOTHING while giving the mages false hope for the ast 3 acts that things will change for the better. Well she was right. Things did change better, but not for the mages. Just for the rapists with a Templar armor and a crazy **** with a sword that gave her fancy spanzy powers.

[Lazy Jer]

CodyMelch wrote...

There is something wrong with your argument about why Elthina should not be held responsible there Jer Jer. Anyone with half a brain could see that Meredeth was going Coo Coo for coe coe puffs. Combined with turning mages into tranquil even after completing there Harrowing and over such small things, that all the mages made sure to complain about Elthina NEVER. EVER. EVEN ONCE warned Meredeth to calm the hell down. To warn her not to do these mortifying and illogical actions. She had the power to have Meredeth replaced. But never did, not even tried to investigate into the complaints the mages gave. While all the while giving the mages false hope. Even Cullen called her cruel for it. CULLEN of all people. It goes to show that she Either A. Condoned her actions. B. Didn't care. Or C. was so incompetent that she never noticed what was going on(but seeing as the mages, including the first enchanter were complaining about it quite openly. I highly doubt it. I don't doubt her incompetence though). I think it is a combination of the three to be honest.

She is to blame for Meredeth. She chose to do NOTHING while giving the mages false hope for the ast 3 acts that things will change for the better. Well she was right. Things did change better, but not for the mages. Just for the rapists with a Templar armor and a crazy **** with a sword that gave her fancy spanzy powers.

Jer Jer...?

Anyway you're beginning your entire paragraph by ignoring a very important element to what I've been saying.  Elthina shouldn't be held directly responsible for Meredeth.  Meredeth should be held directly responsible for Meredeth.  We could just as easily say that Cullen was "responsible for" Meredeth because he was close enough to see her methods but didn't bring it up to Elthina, or that Orsino was responsible for Meredeth because when he managed to get in her presence he didn't specifically say what she was doing and didn't ask for Elthina to investigate or recall Meredeth. 

Secondly prior to Act 3 Meredeth wasn't clearly Coo Coo for any kind of puffs.  Before that she was harsh, but not insane.  Regarding Cullen's statement that Elthina was cruel for giving them false hope, he was saying that because he felt, at the time, that Meredeth was justified in her actions and that that nothing could change.  Cullen only wakes up to who batspit insane Meredeth really is at the very last act when she's litterally about to turn into Dragon Age's own version of Venom from Marvel Comics.

[Cody]

(Tis just a friendly little nickname)

There is a difference though. Elthina is Meredeth's boss and actually could have done something to stop her. Meredeth was beginning to lose her mind once she got her hands on that there idol. She was mentally unstable and no longer capable of being solely responsible of her actions. Even if she was sane, it is Elthinas job to replace her when she goes to far(which she did). She did nothing. If an employee was sexually harassing or physically abusing another employee, the boss is responsible to fix the problem immediately. Or a cop stopping a mugging(as someone else has brought up before). Elthina has that authority. She didn't use it.

Also I think Meredeth was more Carnage than Venom .

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...
That being said, again, there's no reason to assume that she knew about it.  It's not an unreasonable leap of faith to assume that Alrik may have managed to keep this from anyone, Templar and mage alike.

The truly pathetic thing about this is that Hawke knows.  Hawke should be able to tell everyone about it.

Alrik suggested destroying the personality of every mage in the circle - in his own words to his superior and her superior.  It shouldn't have taken much to convince either of them that someone who was willing to mind-rape all mages would be willing to bodily rape a few pretty women.

[TEWR]

"Insane" is also a relative term. In fact it's one of the most malleable terms I can think of. The Haven cultists didn't strike me as insane in the least.

Seriously? They murdered a bunch of Redcliffe soldiers and set up impostors all over Ferelden just to keep tabs on who sought out the ashes. They even threatened the owner of the Spoiled Princess near Lake Calenhad.

The codex on dragon cults says that Reavers do eventually go insane. Even if they weren't insane then -- which I find incredibly difficult to swallow -- they would've become insane eventually.

Dragon's blood has its benefits when you drink it, but it also has its risks. Heavy risk, but the priiize....

So it all depends on how you're going to use it. Since the Reaver Joining is blood magic, if you're going to use the Reaver abilities for good purposes then I'm okay with it. As I am with other kinds of blood magic, depending on each type of spell.

And even then, the malevolent application of a blood magic spell only makes the person evil, not the magic itself.

Whoops.... went into a mini-rant there.

I think the only real doctrinal difference is that Haven had male priests.

Male mage priests, to be exact.

Knight-Commander Meredeth isn't a dog.

I disagree. She's a b!tch through and through

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 février 2012 - 07:14 .

[Cody]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
That being said, again, there's no reason to assume that she knew about it.  It's not an unreasonable leap of faith to assume that Alrik may have managed to keep this from anyone, Templar and mage alike.

The truly pathetic thing about this is that Hawke knows.  Hawke should be able to tell everyone about it.

Alrik suggested destroying the personality of every mage in the circle - in his own words to his superior and her superior.  It shouldn't have taken much to convince either of them that someone who was willing to mind-rape all mages would be willing to bodily rape a few pretty women.

Depends if they want to believe it. I mean Elthina likes to ignore everything Meredeth does. And Meredeth goes out of her way to RECRUIT people like Alrik and Lamb chops Karras. I doubt letting them know would do a damn thing.

[GavrielKay]

CodyMelch wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
That being said, again, there's no reason to assume that she knew about it.  It's not an unreasonable leap of faith to assume that Alrik may have managed to keep this from anyone, Templar and mage alike.

The truly pathetic thing about this is that Hawke knows.  Hawke should be able to tell everyone about it.

Alrik suggested destroying the personality of every mage in the circle - in his own words to his superior and her superior.  It shouldn't have taken much to convince either of them that someone who was willing to mind-rape all mages would be willing to bodily rape a few pretty women.

Depends if they want to believe it. I mean Elthina likes to ignore everything Meredeth does. And Meredeth goes out of her way to RECRUIT people like Alrik and Lamb chops Karras. I doubt letting them know would do a damn thing.

They may not stop it just because, but in a role playing perspective, I could feel I'd done something.  Also, if they ignored accusations on top of the evidence of the "solution" then we'd know for sure that Elthina and Meredith were lousy people.  It's about this silly excuse that they may not have known.  Hawke should have been able to tell someone.

[TEWR]

They may not stop it just because, but in a role playing perspective, I could feel I'd done something.

A major problem with DAII. It relies far too much on the player using headcanon just to feel okay with a situation, and sometimes headcanon becomes contradicted by what the game does.

Also, if they ignored accusations on top of the evidence of the "solution" then we'd know for sure that Elthina and Meredith were lousy people. It's about this silly excuse that they may not have known. Hawke should have been able to tell someone.

Frankly, if they hadn't done anything about it then that's even more reason for a person to not side with the Templars. If they don't reign in or investigate their Templars, why should I entrust the lives of a new Circle's population to them?

What incentive is the player given to side with the Templars? The mages were innocent of Anders' act, the Templars in Kirkwall are primarily composed of slimeballs with what few decent ones there were being slaughtered, and Meredith was crazy from the broken lyrium idol she bought the moment she got it.

There's absolutely no reason to side with the Templars. There is reason to side with the mages, but then Bioware slapped us in the face with a poorly contrived Harvestino for MOAR boss fights. Funny, considering the original idea was for Hawke to either forgive Orsino or fight him. Hawke could've actually chosen what he wanted to do.

DAII became the same thing Broken Circle was. The Mages were the answer, and that was exactly what Bioware didn't want to happen.

A failure on their part, and all the more evidence the game was rushed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 février 2012 - 08:08 .

[Rifneno]

[quote]Lazy Jer wrote...

I'm not doubting whether or not Alrik did what he did. The implication was quiet clear. Clear enough that I have no doubt that he was doing it. What I'm saying is that I don't think anyone else knew. His actions weren't being hidden by other members of the Templar Order, because they didn't know. It's the entire reason he went after the Tranquil. He knew that, without emotions, they would "do whatever he asked." It's the entire reason why I wanted to raise the character from the dead in game so I could kill him again.[/quote]

I know. I'm saying there's so much abuse and corruption going on in the Kirkwall Order that I find the notion Elthina didn't know there was some Abu Ghraib **** going down there to be downright laughable.

[quote]This is probably something I'm going to need to read up on in the codexes (which I tend to skip), or get further along in DA:Assunder before commenting further on. But what I'm saying is that I don't think Elthina herself was dangling lyruim over the heads of the Temps.[/quote]

She should have been.

[quote]Regarding the dog anaology, the difference is that a vicious attack dog lacks the requisite intelligence to be held accountable for it's actions. Knight-Commander Meredeth isn't a dog. She is a human being and needs to be held more accountable for the problems in Kirkwall then Elthina. The direct fault needs to go to Meredeth, whereas Elthina's fault is indirect.[/quote]

Oh I'm certainly not absolving Meredith. Good God, no. I can't even talk about what punishment I think Meredith should endure because this is a PG forum. I'm just talking about Elthina instead because nobody is questioning Meredith's evil.

[quote]That comment of hers about magic allowing abuses beyond the scope of morals is the entire basis of the debate on the neccessity or lack thereof of the Circle/Templar system. What she's saying there is that one mage has the ability to melt the faces of an entire village of non-mages if they so choose. The Chantry takes a lot of flack for it's possition on magic and mages, but let's face it, mages can be dangerous.[/quote]

Depends upon the size of the village. Connor seemed to be a unique case if for no other reason than mankind wouldn't have survived the stone age if that kind of thing wasn't incredibly rare. But either way, magic is of course dangerous. The Chantry's solution (especially in Kirkwall) is like burning down your house to get rid of a stain your new puppy left on the carpet. Beyond being a massive over-reaction, they're punishing people (and very harshly) for merely being capable of crimes. Crimes that others have committed. They're okay with punishing mages like Bethany for the crimes of others, so I'm okay with punishing grand clerics like Elthina for the crimes of her templars.

[quote]Ironically the first time I heard the term was while watching a Richard Pryor flick.[/quote]

... It still enrages me to think how they ruined Superman III by making it about Pryor's character.

[quote] It's not an unreasonable leap of faith to assume that Alrik may have managed to keep this from anyone, Templar and mage alike.[/quote]

Yeah, it kind of is. One scene that immediately pops to mind is a random background banter between two nameless NPCs in the Gallows. Some mage was extremely relieved to find the woman he loves was back after having been missing for a bit. And then, extremely horrified when she responds in the lifeless, monotone voice of a tranquil. He laments the loss and she ends the banter saying, "I belong only to Ser Alrik now."

Considering how much of mediating Elthina supposedly does with Meredith and Orsino, how would she not know about the rampant abuses? Not all of them, there's too many to know them all. If this wasn't a game (i.e. what we don't see doesn't exist) I'd say we probably don't even know a fraction of it. Seriously, if she investigated by interviewing random mages in private and such (or even just trying to verify the tranquility rites' legality), it'd be impossible for the templars to hide the fact that the Gallows is, well, what it is. So either she knew, or she didn't bother with any investigation because she was really in Meredith's camp and just wanted to save face by feigning neutrality. ... And I'm not really sure what the difference is, come to think of it.

[quote] We could just as easily say that Cullen was "responsible for" Meredeth because he was close enough to see her methods but didn't bring it up to Elthina, or that Orsino was responsible for Meredeth because when he managed to get in her presence he didn't specifically say what she was doing and didn't ask for Elthina to investigate or recall Meredeth. [/quote]

Sounds good to me. I don't view Cullen as anything but another scumbag fascist anyway. No, he wasn't a rapist or torturer, but an 'honest' fascist is still a fascist.

[quote]There is a difference though. Elthina is Meredeth's boss and actually could have done something to stop her. Meredeth was beginning to lose her mind once she got her hands on that there idol. She was mentally unstable and no longer capable of being solely responsible of her actions. Even if she was sane, it is Elthinas job to replace her when she goes to far(which she did). She did nothing. If an employee was sexually harassing or physically abusing another employee, the boss is responsible to fix the problem immediately. Or a cop stopping a mugging(as someone else has brought up before). Elthina has that authority. She didn't use it.[/quote]

Fun fact: Elthina is the one who appointed Meredith in the first place. And it was after the incident with her sister that turned her into a murderous psychotic.

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...

Alrik suggested destroying the personality of every mage in the circle - in his own words to his superior and her superior. It shouldn't have taken much to convince either of them that someone who was willing to mind-rape all mages would be willing to bodily rape a few pretty women.[/quote]

I kind of wonder if Ella should be called a woman. Bethany, at a ripe old age of 18, referred to her as a kid. How old could she have been? I suppose given Alrik's crimes a charge of child molestion wouldn't change anything, but... *shudder*

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Seriously? They murdered a bunch of Redcliffe soldiers and set up impostors all over Ferelden just to keep tabs on who sought out the ashes. They even threatened the owner of the Spoiled Princess near Lake Calenhad.[/quote]

I didn't say they were nice people, I said they seemed sane to me. They acted logically for their goal and had a firm grasp of reality (aside from their beliefs on the dragon, but religion always requires some degree of blind faith). Evil? Sure. Insane? Nah.

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...

Hawke should have been able to tell someone.[/quote]

Maybe, but remember the mother of all facepalms where a pro-templar Hawke tells Cullen about Anders' Chantry plotting and Cullen says 'don't worry about it, we're on it.' and then everything plays out like the conversation never happened?

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
That being said, again, there's no reason to assume that she knew about it.  It's not an unreasonable leap of faith to assume that Alrik may have managed to keep this from anyone, Templar and mage alike.

The truly pathetic thing about this is that Hawke knows.  Hawke should be able to tell everyone about it.

Alrik suggested destroying the personality of every mage in the circle - in his own words to his superior and her superior.  It shouldn't have taken much to convince either of them that someone who was willing to mind-rape all mages would be willing to bodily rape a few pretty women.

By the time hawke finds out about the Tranquil Solution, Alrik is dead. What good would it do to tell everyone, "oh hai thar! This scumbag was a rapist! But don't worry I totally still murdered him myself!" That wouldn't particularly do Hawke any good. Hawke instead took comfort in knowing that Alrik was dead, and now incapable of harming anyone ever again.
And if you are suggesting that Hawke should have spread rumors about Alrik before his death, then where is the justice in that? Sure with meta-gaming it could be justified, but Hawke had absolutely no way of knowing, that Alrik was anything but a particularly harsh Templar.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By the time hawke finds out about the Tranquil Solution, Alrik is dead. What good would it do to tell everyone, "oh hai thar! This scumbag was a rapist! But don't worry I totally still murdered him myself!" That wouldn't particularly do Hawke any good. Hawke instead took comfort in knowing that Alrik was dead, and now incapable of harming anyone ever again.

Well... just because Alrik's dead doesn't mean the rape and illegal tranquilization ended. Surely he had some confidants and supporters that still exist within the Circle.

Since he was commanding a bunch of Templars -- possibly more then we saw in Justice and Tranquility -- if Alrik was going through with these things an investigation should happen. To at least root out any other like-minded cronies of his.

And if you are suggesting that Hawke should have spread rumors about Alrik before his death, then where is the justice in that? Sure with meta-gaming it could be justified, but Hawke had absolutely no way of knowing, that Alrik was anything but a particularly harsh Templar

Well... he does give Bethany some very creepy stares, according to her letter. So if Bethany's in the Circle, rumors being spread prior to Alrik's death would've been slightly more justified.

And I think everyone here obviously knows what that means.  

It's one of the few times where my motivations sync up with Hawke's and I don't have to make Hawke's my own. Anytime I played DAII with a Rogue/Warrior Hawke and Bethany was in the Circle, I roleplayed him to vow that he'd take care of her as much as possible while still allowing her to live in the Circle. Even then though, I felt very limited in how much I could roleplay that particular Hawke. A few meetings with Bethany in the Gallows that didn't rely on headcanon would've helped that aspect of my roleplaying.

Anyway, to that end, when he found out about Alrik and remembered who he was, he wanted to decapitate Alrik and kick his head across the Gallows Courtyard with his friends in a game of soccer.

Rifneno wrote...

I kind of wonder if Ella should be called a woman. Bethany, at a ripe old age of 18, referred to her as a kid. How old could she have been? I suppose given Alrik's crimes a charge of child molestion wouldn't change anything, but... *shudder*

I believe Ella's 15 when we meet her, and Bethany is 21 in Act 2 when you receive her letter.

So yea, Alrik's an ephebophile too! Wonderful that I got to shove his Sword of Mercy down his throat for all the crimes he committed!

Take that how you will. Either I meant his actual sword, or his "sword".

EDIT: put in the proper term. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 février 2012 - 09:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Oh I'm certainly not absolving Meredith. Good God, no. I can't even talk about what punishment I think Meredith should endure because this is a PG forum. I'm just talking about Elthina instead because nobody is questioning Meredith's evil.

I'm not quite certain of this. Unlike Elthina, Meredith is definitely insane, and I'm not quite sure how responsible she is for her own actions.
Also, regarding your earlier comparison, Stalin did at least some good. He was dead-on in his prediction about how the Soviets needed to make a hundred years of progress in ten or be crushed (he said that in 1931), and he threw off the ****s admirably. Sure, he was a paranoid evil overlord, but he may still have been what the Allies needed in that situation for fighting off someone even worse.

Considering how much of mediating Elthina supposedly does with Meredith and Orsino, how would she not know about the rampant abuses? Not all of them, there's too many to know them all. If this wasn't a game (i.e. what we don't see doesn't exist) I'd say we probably don't even know a fraction of it. Seriously, if she investigated by interviewing random mages in private and such (or even just trying to verify the tranquility rites' legality), it'd be impossible for the templars to hide the fact that the Gallows is, well, what it is. So either she knew, or she didn't bother with any investigation because she was really in Meredith's camp and just wanted to save face by feigning neutrality. ... And I'm not really sure what the difference is, come to think of it.

There's a very interesting contrast between the reactions of Elthina and Cullen when you show them Alrik's papers. Elthina is quite shocked, while Cullen basically says "I'm pretty sure you killed him, but he was a douche so I'll overlook it this time." I think Elthina was indeed ignorant of Alrik's abuses, while Cullen at least had a strong idea but not sufficient proof to bring Meredith down on Alrik's head. Though if I had to make a guess about Meredith's mental state (her feelings for mages are actually a heavily twisted form of parental love), she has no problems with the Rite of Tranquility but would brutally punish anyone caught committing rape. But anyway, no, Elthina likely didn't know, incompetent that she is.

Fun fact: Elthina is the one who appointed Meredith in the first place. And it was after the incident with her sister that turned her into a murderous psychotic.

Regrettably. She should really never have been allowed into the templars in the first place; had she gotten away from anything to do with mages instead of being made to guard them, she might have healed mentally.

I kind of wonder if Ella should be called a woman. Bethany, at a ripe old age of 18, referred to her as a kid. How old could she have been? I suppose given Alrik's crimes a charge of child molestion wouldn't change anything, but... *shudder*

Bethany was 22 in Act 2. Unfortunately, the models for children are such that a probably prepubescent elf girl has noticeable breasts and looks exactly the same six years later, so there's really no in-game way to tell.

So yea, Alrik's a pedophile too! Wonderful that I got to shove his Sword of Mercy down his throat for all the crimes he committed!

Ephebophile. Ella is definitely pubescent.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 février 2012 - 09:24 .

[TEWR]

Ephebophile. Ella is definitely pubescent.

Ah, okay.

New Greek word added to mental dictionary.

[Xilizhra]

Also, the Blade of Mercy is an exclusively Tevinter weapon, only one of which appears in the game (a gift for Fenris).

[TEWR]

Also, the Blade of Mercy is an exclusively Tevinter weapon, only one of which appears in the game (a gift for Fenris).

Alistair uses the term "Sword of Mercy" when Leliana advocates sparing the blood mage woman in Broken Circle, saying that the Chantry he knew wouldn't hesitate to shove one through her.

[Xilizhra]

Hmmm. I smell that someone remembered the term but forgot its original use, and it's an effective retcon.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The sword of mercy you give Fenris is a replica of the original used by Hessarian to deliver the coup de grace to Andraste. Templars use it as a symbol of their order.

[TEWR]

The sword of mercy you give Fenris is a replica of the original used by Hessarian to deliver the coup de grace to Andraste. Templars use it as a symbol of their order

Quite right.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
By the time hawke finds out about the Tranquil Solution, Alrik is dead. What good would it do to tell everyone, "oh hai thar! This scumbag was a rapist! But don't worry I totally still murdered him myself!" That wouldn't particularly do Hawke any good. Hawke instead took comfort in knowing that Alrik was dead, and now incapable of harming anyone ever again.
And if you are suggesting that Hawke should have spread rumors about Alrik before his death, then where is the justice in that? Sure with meta-gaming it could be justified, but Hawke had absolutely no way of knowing, that Alrik was anything but a particularly harsh Templar.

There was a letter that could be found on one of the Templars during Anders' Tranquility quest.  In this codex, Alrik is threatening to strip a Templar of rank for questioning him.  And another letter where we find out Alrik has decided to go over even the Grand Cleric's head in his zeal.

Then there's the conversation at the Gallows that was mentioned where a Tranquil clearly tells us she belongs to Alrik.  Taking sexual advantage of a Tranquil is roughly equivalent to using a mentally retarded person that way.  If you don't have the mental facility to "want" to be in a sexual relationship, then it's wrong for someone to use you that way.

I think Hawke had more than rumors to go on.  Though honestly, if it took spreading wild rumors to get Elthina off her butt to investigate what was actually going on in the Gallows, I'd have been ok with that too.

Edit:  it doesn't want to let me use links today, but they are:
http://dragonage.wik.../Templar_Letter
http://dragonage.wik..._Alrik's_Letter

Modifié par GavrielKay, 21 février 2012 - 12:31 .

[Xilizhra]

To be fair, the Ser Bardel letter is literally blink-and-you'll-miss-it, and if you kill Bardel last, it's impossible to see altogether, so quite a few Hawkes may not have read it.