2008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well... he does give Bethany some very creepy stares, according to her letter. So if Bethany's in the Circle, rumors being spread prior to Alrik's death would've been slightly more justified.

And I think everyone here obviously knows what that means.

A man gives your sister a creepy stares, does not make it okay to start spreading rumors about him, that could potentially ruin his life. While in retrospect and with metagaming we know taht it could've paid off to start an investigation into Ser Alrik. Hawke simply doesn't have anything concrete to start the investigation on.

And if any of you say that the "Templar Letter" should've been enough, I ask you this: How do you expect Hawke to explain to Meredith, how he came into possession of the letter?

[TEWR]

A man gives your sister a creepy stares, does not make it okay to start spreading rumors about him, that could potentially ruin his life. While in retrospect and with metagaming we know taht it could've paid off to start an investigation into Ser Alrik. Hawke simply doesn't have anything concrete to start the investigation on.

The stares, the banter in the Gallows between the Tranquil woman and the Elf, the letter in Tranquility. By Act 2 -- prior to starting Ander's quest -- there is enough grounds for an investigation to happen.

That's enough grounds for spreading rumors if it means something good comes of it, because he ruined his life the moment he started doing those things.

And if any of you say that the "Templar Letter" should've been enough, I ask you this: How do you expect Hawke to explain to Meredith, how he came into possession of the letter?

"Hey Meredith, I saw some blood mages kill some of your Templars. I killed them to bring justice and found this letter on a Templar's corpse. I think you should take a look at this guy Alrik. My condolences on the lost of your men."

You know, lie. Because everyone lies.

And Hawke has Varric, who can bluff his way out of any situation he wants to.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 février 2012 - 01:59 .

[Xilizhra]

A man gives your sister a creepy stares, does not make it okay to start spreading rumors about him, that could potentially ruin his life. While in retrospect and with metagaming we know taht it could've paid off to start an investigation into Ser Alrik. Hawke simply doesn't have anything concrete to start the investigation on.

It's not like Hawke isn't familiar with this if the right choices are made. See Ser Conrad Vernhart.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyway, to that end, when he found out about Alrik and remembered who he was, he wanted to decapitate Alrik and kick his head across the Gallows Courtyard with his friends in a game of soccer.

I say, let a honey badger kill him. *points to avatar* Their preferred method of killing larger mammals (they're only about 30 lbs) is to go for the arteries in the genitals and then let them bleed out. Yes, seriously. It works on lions, it'll work on a templar. Sounds like a very fitting end for Alrik.

Well... he does give Bethany some very creepy stares, according to her letter. So if Bethany's in the Circle, rumors being spread prior to Alrik's death would've been slightly more justified.

Agreed. Well, kind of. Emp is actually right that some creepy stares isn't enough. It's within the realm of possibility that he was like a pre-broken circle Cullen and had a crush he was very ashamed of. However, Hawke can hear quite a few random dialogues in the Gallows that are simply damning of Alrik. There's just one big problem with it. ... It'd require Hawke to be pro-active.

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not quite certain of this. Unlike Elthina, Meredith is definitely insane, and I'm not quite sure how responsible she is for her own actions.

The idol drove her mad in Act III, this is true. But she was portrayed as nearly as bad (sans paranoia) prior to the idol.

Also, regarding your earlier comparison, Stalin did at least some good. He was dead-on in his prediction about how the Soviets needed to make a hundred years of progress in ten or be crushed (he said that in 1931), and he threw off the ****s admirably. Sure, he was a paranoid evil overlord, but he may still have been what the Allies needed in that situation for fighting off someone even worse.

He actually had a deal with the ****s where they'd share Europe. Hitler betrayed him and invaded Soviet territories. He did in WWII out of necessity to defend the USSR from an enemy attack. He was no more "good" than one of a couple of warring drug lords.

Though if I had to make a guess about Meredith's mental state (her feelings for mages are actually a heavily twisted form of parental love), she has no problems with the Rite of Tranquility but would brutally punish anyone caught committing rape.

*blank stare* What?!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alistair uses the term "Sword of Mercy" when Leliana advocates sparing the blood mage woman in Broken Circle, saying that the Chantry he knew wouldn't hesitate to shove one through her.

I'm sure it's not the first time Leliana has been--aww, forget it. Too easy.

[TEWR]

I say, let a honey badger kill him. *points to avatar* Their preferred method of killing larger mammals (they're only about 30 lbs) is to go for the arteries in the genitals and then let them bleed out. Yes, seriously. It works on lions, it'll work on a templar. Sounds like a very fitting end for Alrik.

I've seen videos of honey badgers.

They're awesome, and they don't need to push any damn buttons to prove it.

Agreed. Well, kind of. Emp is actually right that some creepy stares isn't enough. It's within the realm of possibility that he was like a pre-broken circle Cullen and had a crush he was very ashamed of. However, Hawke can hear quite a few random dialogues in the Gallows that are simply damning of Alrik. There's just one big problem with it. ... It'd require Hawke to be pro-active.

True, though if a 40-50 year old Templar is eyeballing my 21 year old sister who's a mage and she's creeped out by it, I'm going to at least be wary of it. I'd even voice my concerns to said sister.

Then once I hear the other things and read the letters, I will want to investigate on my own and possibly bring it to the Templars' attention if I feel they'll do something. At the very least, to Thrask.

I would say Cullen too, but he's oblivious to just about anything. You could dangle a piece of meat in front of him when he's stranded on an island starving to death, and he'd ask you about Lawrence's adulterous affair with Jill.

And unfortunately, it's not so much that Hawke isn't proactive. Certainly that's a major part of it, but it's that he doesn't think at all.

The idol drove her mad in Act III, this is true. But she was portrayed as nearly as bad (sans paranoia) prior to the idol.

Act 2 actually. Bartrand broke the idol in Act 2 prior to selling it to Meredith, and Anders says in Act 3 that the idol is even more potent broken then intact. Additionally, Varric fell under its influence immediately. He even thanks Hawke for his assistance in getting him to act normal again, saying that he wasn't himself.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 février 2012 - 08:22 .

[Xilizhra]

He actually had a deal with the ****s where they'd share Europe. Hitler betrayed him and invaded Soviet territories. He did in WWII out of necessity to defend the USSR from an enemy attack. He was no more "good" than one of a couple of warring drug lords.

Not good, but perhaps necessary.

*blank stare* What?!

Meredith, so far as I can tell, is obsessed with the idea of protection; both protecting other people from mages and protecting mages from themselves. Effectively, she keeps trying to relive the incident with her sister and do it properly this time, and I suspect that she, in a way, sees all mages as being her sister. She hates the state of magehood, certainly, and I suspect she hates it one of the most on the whole world of Thedas, but mages as people she wants to help and protect. Her perceptions are just terribly warped.

[TEWR]

Ah, it seems we were all wrong. Bethany wasn't receiving creepy stares. She points out that Alrik harasses the mages and that she'll steer clear of him.

Dear Hawke,

I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.

With love,
Bethany


Still, I wouldn't put it past Alrik to have tried to Tranquil Bethany and make her another slave in his despicable harem.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 février 2012 - 08:37 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

No doubt Alrik would've done such a thing. What matters is though, that there is nothing but rumors and hearsay to go on, and that is simply not enough to justify potentially destroying a man's life with malicious rumors of your own.

[Ivucci]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No doubt Alrik would've done such a thing. What matters is though, that there is nothing but rumors and hearsay to go on, and that is simply not enough to justify potentially destroying a man's life with malicious rumors of your own.

This is not exactly fair of me, but nevertheless: mages' lifes are ruined on the grounds of much less than "malicious rumours".

Alrik is a creepy guy who finds himself in the position of power in an institution where rape happens to be a known issue, and is known for harassing mages > but let's not ruin one man's life because of malicious rumours

Mages are people who happen to have magical powers > let's ruin their life because they would probably burn the first village they see to the ground.

Which one is bigger nonsense?

Just a thought.

Modifié par Ivucci, 21 février 2012 - 09:41 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Random Guy: Hawke there's a creepy rapist Templar!

Hawke: Whateve's it's all good.

Random Guy: Hawke that creepy rapist Templar has acted against you!

Hawke: Oh now I can do something about it!

*Because we all know it's impossible for Hawke to be pro-active about anything*

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ivucci wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No doubt Alrik would've done such a thing. What matters is though, that there is nothing but rumors and hearsay to go on, and that is simply not enough to justify potentially destroying a man's life with malicious rumors of your own.

This is not exactly fair of me, but nevertheless: mages' lifes are ruined on the grounds of much less than "malicious rumours".

Alrik is a creepy guy who finds himself in the position of power in an institution where rape happens to be a known issue, and is known for harassing mages > but let's not ruin one man's life because of malicious rumours

Mages are people who happen to have magical powers > let's ruin their life because they would probably burn the first village they see to the ground.

Which one is bigger nonsense?

Just a thought.

Arguably, mages' lives aren't ruined by living in the Circle (and I mean the Circle in general), evident by the large amount of mages who are quite happy with their existence. Sure, some mages feel like they've been shorthanded, but there will always be discontentment, even in Utopia.

[Sons of Horus]

Given the amount of creepy people in Kirkwall, I think Hawke just though "another strange denizen of Kirkwall" when he heard rumours about Alrik. And given the amount of freaks that populate that place, its not surprising that he went under the radar.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 21 février 2012 - 12:07 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Act 2 actually. Bartrand broke the idol in Act 2 prior to selling it to Meredith, and Anders says in Act 3 that the idol is even more potent broken then intact. Additionally, Varric fell under its influence immediately. He even thanks Hawke for his assistance in getting him to act normal again, saying that he wasn't himself.

Anders is probably just guessing since he doesn't know what it is any better than we do. He's assuming it's more potent because it brainnapped™ Varric almost as soon as he entered the mansion whereas it took a few years for it to do that to reduce Bartrand to a quivering mess of cannibalism. Buuuut, we've hypothesized that it may have actually brainnapped Bartrand in the Primeval Thaig and it was what made him betray everyone rather than greed. If that's true, then Anders is incorrect.

Either way, Meredith has been Meredith since before Hawke even came to the city. A few people (or maybe just Cullen, I forget) comment about Meredith changing but it's only about her becoming reclusive or being too preoccupied with politics. It's never about her suddenly being a bloodthirsty tyrant when she wasn't before.

Xilizhra wrote...

Meredith, so far as I can tell, is obsessed with the idea of protection; both protecting other people from mages and protecting mages from themselves. Effectively, she keeps trying to relive the incident with her sister and do it properly this time, and I suspect that she, in a way, sees all mages as being her sister. She hates the state of magehood, certainly, and I suspect she hates it one of the most on the whole world of Thedas, but mages as people she wants to help and protect. Her perceptions are just terribly warped.

I disagree. Vehemently. You see all kinds of punishments handed out by her regime for various offenses, on occasion even to her own templars (Conrad, Samson). But never is it for abusing a mage. People quote her disingenuous bull**** when she claims it "breaks her heart" to do what she does and blame the rest on the idol. But she said that the very same night she exclaims "I am eager to begin!" before the Right of Annulment, in a tone of voice like a child whose parents are getting out of bed on Christmas morning. If that was "just the idol" then so was all her drivel about wanting to protect people by butchering them.

It's ironic really... Meredith was the sister that truly became an abomination. Amelia has nothing on her. Meredith is simple a monster. I don't know what's going on in her head. Analyzing the thought process of genocidal lunatic is a little out of my league. But I do know it's beyond what I consider believable for her to care about any abuse against mages (physical, psychologically or sexual) while with all the rampant horrors being committed by her minions against their charges and her never punishing a single one yet having come down like the wrath of God on a templar for delivering a goddamn love letter.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Still, I wouldn't put it past Alrik to have tried to Tranquil Bethany and make her another slave in his despicable harem.

As sick as this would make me to see, I kind of wish they had gone this route everytime I see someone single-mindedly parrotting "but Quentin! it's okay to commit genocide because somebody killed a woman a few years ago!" over and over (and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...). To these people, the only thing that matters is characters important to their character. Trying to debate with that is like trying to teach a potato to dance. Which is why it pisses me off that they put mommy Hawke on the sacrificial alter of drama so we see the horrors of mages while at the same time putting a suit of double reinforced iridium platemail of plot armoring on Bethany while she spends six years at the mercy of torturers, murderers, and rapists.

Oh, and I can already see the Chantry supporters frantically chastizing me that "not all templars are like that!" ... Yeah, and? Tell me, what do you suppose the Vegas odds are on a given mage in Kirkwall (especially a young and attractive woman) winding up being the victim of abuse in the Gallows? And now let's pick one random old woman. What do you suppose the odds are on her ending up being the victim of an insane serial killer that's trying to rebuild his wife from spare parts? One necromancer serial killer, in one of the largest (if not THE largest) city in the country. Wanna buy a lottery ticket?

[Xilizhra]

I disagree. Vehemently. You see all kinds of punishments handed out by her regime for various offenses, on occasion even to her own templars (Conrad, Samson). But never is it for abusing a mage. People quote her disingenuous bull**** when she claims it "breaks her heart" to do what she does and blame the rest on the idol. But she said that the very same night she exclaims "I am eager to begin!" before the Right of Annulment, in a tone of voice like a child whose parents are getting out of bed on Christmas morning. If that was "just the idol" then so was all her drivel about wanting to protect people by butchering them.

Meredith's mindset swings around majorly in Act 3, most noticeably in the first Last Straw conversation where she flips from enraged to sorrowful and back again with remarkable speed, and also from purging Lowtown mage sympathizers to offering clemency to Thrask's conspirators if Hawke asks. I think this is because of the sword, with her sort of realizing its effect and overcompensating (by her standards) for it in those moments when it's not wholly dominating her. I actually think A Noble Agenda is the clearest sign of the sword's effect, since whatever else she did, I don't think there was any precedent for her sending a templar squad in broad daylight to off people who took in mages for one night (which seems to have backfired; I presume that Meredith does nothing to Hawke after Hawke kills them all because of all the witnesses claiming it was self-defense on Hawke's part, which it was).
I'm not sure where I was going with this, but I think she was so paranoid about the mages plotting against her that she never looked for any signs of abuse by her own templars. Which isn't any better for the mages than outright allowing it, but there is a difference in intent, at least. Admittedly, I'm not quite sure why I still possess some sympathy for Meredith, but eh.

As sick as this would make me to see, I kind of wish they had gone this route everytime I see someone single-mindedly parrotting "but Quentin! it's okay to commit genocide because somebody killed a woman a few years ago!" over and over (and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...). To these people, the only thing that matters is characters important to their character. Trying to debate with that is like trying to teach a potato to dance. Which is why it pisses me off that they put mommy Hawke on the sacrificial alter of drama so we see the horrors of mages while at the same time putting a suit of double reinforced iridium platemail of plot armoring on Bethany while she spends six years at the mercy of torturers, murderers, and rapists.

It's a decent idea, but there are two problems with that. Problem number one is that this is only one outcome out of six, and though it's one of the more popular ones, not everyone would see it. Problem number two is that I don't trust the game to handle rape well (with Ella, I frankly doubt that she was experienced enough to pick up on the rapish tones of Alrik; it was Tranquility she was afraid of, and though Alrik's last line might have been enough to make her wonder, Justice's attack probably drove it out of her mind).
One thing I do think is that if Hawke sides with the templars, Meredith should kill Bethany instantly and leave no room for argument.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 février 2012 - 02:33 .

[dragonflight288]

Arguably, mages' lives aren't ruined by living in the Circle (and I mean the Circle in general), evident by the large amount of mages who are quite happy with their existence. Sure, some mages feel like they've been shorthanded, but there will always be discontentment, even in Utopia.

Utopia is a good story, especially since the author wrote it with irony in mind. If you take the word "Utopia" by itself, and break down its meaning, it actually means "no-place." Doesn't exist.

The Circle system may seem like a Utopia to templars and people who fear mages. Give them a place to study magic and have the templars hunt down maleficars and abominations. Keeps everyone safe.

But then you take the full details and dig deeper. It becomes a nasty and dirty place that is far from perfect, and everyone agrees that it's not. Mage supporters advocate more rights. Rights to have a family, serve their king or queen in times of war (seven mages were allowed to Ostagar. Seven out of hundreds. That's not enough for a war effort if you want healers or people who can do mass devastation on the enemy) or even the right to see their families while they study at the Circle.

Templar supporters see all the abuses of magic itself, and the horrors magic can and has unleashed on people. All it takes is one child making an honest mistake (Connor) or one power-hungry mage (Ulfric) and great abuses can occur. With consequences far beyond what the mage intended. Connor did not want to kill a large chunk of Redcliff. Ulfric did not want to get possessed by a demon and force mages into becoming abominations. But that deal with the demon never turns out well, and that deal the one mage made blows out of proportion, harming everyone around them.

So to the templar's point of view, it only makes sense to keep mages in one location where it's easier to keep track of their use of magic and keeping them from becoming malifecar or abominations.

The problem (and no one disputes this one fact) is that the whole system has become completely corrupt. The Templars are largely recruited for being religious zealots. And you can't argue with a religious zealot. And the mages are subjected to the threat of abuses at all times, torn from their families while they're at an impressionable age, and their only choice is to face a demon in the fade, become tranquil, or die.

There is no other choice.

Pro-mage people (like myself) say the entire Circle system needs reformation and allowing mages more rights and the Templar's less power would solve the problems. There will always be bad eggs in a group, so I know mage criminals will exist. That's why the templars are needed. But templars must not be allowed to punish every mage for the actions of a few.

Mages have the right to be treated with respect if they aren't guilty of any crimes.

[Cody]

Looks like dragonflight288 has been playing too much Skyrim . It's Uldred mate not Ulfric(stormcloak)

[dragonflight288]

LOL. Guess I have. They both start with U-L.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Arguably, mages' lives aren't ruined by living in the Circle (and I mean the Circle in general), evident by the large amount of mages who are quite happy with their existence. Sure, some mages feel like they've been shorthanded, but there will always be discontentment, even in Utopia.

You know, I think this is one huge difference of opinion from which much else follows.  If you really believe that mages don't have it so bad, then sure, why bother to overthrow the system.

But there's a reason why even house arrest is considered a punishment.  Even if you get to choose your place of incarceration (which mages don't) and get your needs met (which mages sometimes do) and get left mostly unmolested (which depends on the circle in question) - you are still trapped. 

Humans (and presumably elves) almost universally prefer to make decisions for themselves.  They prefer to live and love as they choose.  We like to go outside, visit with friends, have families, fight for what we believe...  We want a certain level of self-determination in order to feel happy.

No matter how pretty the cage, or how many nice meals are served there, it is still imprisonment.  I really don't think it is right to the oppressors to demand that the inmates be happy because they are well fed.

Add to that the ever present threat of a Templar just a bit too zealous or too in love with his power and it just gets worse.

Slaves are slaves whether they are educated and fed or not.  I'd rather fight to survive than have someone else dictate my every move.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Meredith's mindset swings around majorly in Act 3, most noticeably in the first Last Straw conversation where she flips from enraged to sorrowful and back again with remarkable speed, and also from purging Lowtown mage sympathizers to offering clemency to Thrask's conspirators if Hawke asks. I think this is because of the sword, with her sort of realizing its effect and overcompensating (by her standards) for it in those moments when it's not wholly dominating her. I actually think A Noble Agenda is the clearest sign of the sword's effect, since whatever else she did, I don't think there was any precedent for her sending a templar squad in broad daylight to off people who took in mages for one night (which seems to have backfired; I presume that Meredith does nothing to Hawke after Hawke kills them all because of all the witnesses claiming it was self-defense on Hawke's part, which it was).
I'm not sure where I was going with this, but I think she was so paranoid about the mages plotting against her that she never looked for any signs of abuse by her own templars. Which isn't any better for the mages than outright allowing it, but there is a difference in intent, at least. Admittedly, I'm not quite sure why I still possess some sympathy for Meredith, but eh.

I think you're reading subtext where there isn't any. The simplier explanation is "just bad writing." Hawke's main character plot armor protects them for the Noble Agenda incident, provided there even were any witnesses who were willing to report what they saw. The mercy request for Thrask's co-conspirators could just be because she was deciding what to do with them. Remember, that quest happens right before Anders blows up the Chantry.
You're just too good for your own good (as opposed to this sentence structure, which is just bad). Not everyone deserves sympathy. I wouldn't feel bad for Meredith after she'd spent a few days hanging off a cross, and I often get called a bleeding heart.

It's a decent idea, but there are two problems with that. Problem number one is that this is only one outcome out of six, and though it's one of the more popular ones, not everyone would see it. Problem number two is that I don't trust the game to handle rape well (with Ella, I frankly doubt that she was experienced enough to pick up on the rapish tones of Alrik; it was Tranquility she was afraid of, and though Alrik's last line might have been enough to make her wonder, Justice's attack probably drove it out of her mind).

Very true. I suppose I'm just venting because the double standard irritates me.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Pro-mage people (like myself) say the entire Circle system needs reformation and allowing mages more rights and the Templar's less power would solve the problems. There will always be bad eggs in a group, so I know mage criminals will exist. That's why the templars are needed. But templars must not be allowed to punish every mage for the actions of a few.

I think this is where a lot of misunderstanding comes from. Almost everyone agrees there needs to be a force to deal with corrupt mages. "Templar" however has an innate religious connotation. Because let's all remember where the word comes from. There really were templars, and they really were warrior-zealots. That's what we don't need. Whatever replaces the templars as a law enforcement against magical abuse must not have religious ties.

GavrielKay wrote...

You know, I think this is one huge difference of opinion from which much else follows. If you really believe that mages don't have it so bad, then sure, why bother to overthrow the system.

Truer words were never spoken. Or typed, as the case may be.

[Xilizhra]

I think you're reading subtext where there isn't any. The simplier explanation is "just bad writing." Hawke's main character plot armor protects them for the Noble Agenda incident, provided there even were any witnesses who were willing to report what they saw. The mercy request for Thrask's co-conspirators could just be because she was deciding what to do with them. Remember, that quest happens right before Anders blows up the Chantry.

Maybe not deliberate subtext, but even things put there accidentally are still there. I agree that Meredith could have still been deciding what to do in Best Served Cold, but there does need to be an in-universe explanation for plot armor, even if none is provided (though I'm still working on the other two sidequest broad daylight street fights, Dark Epiphany and Last of His Line, especially since both are in Act 1).

You're just too good for your own good (as opposed to this sentence structure, which is just bad). Not everyone deserves sympathy. I wouldn't feel bad for Meredith after she'd spent a few days hanging off a cross, and I often get called a bleeding heart.

But anyone who calls people a bleeding heart is a moron. In any case, I only believe in inflicting pain if it's absolutely necessary to protect oneself or others. Of course, I believe this quite applies to everyone currently trapped in a Circle or threatened by the templars, so yeah.

Very true. I suppose I'm just venting because the double standard irritates me.

It's a remarkably easy one to fall into. Though Quentin was actually the only insane blood mage who really succeeded in killing multiple people onscreen; Tahrone's forced possession of templar apprentices probably counts, and Huon killed his wife, but Huon only killed one (previously unknown) person and Tarohne's actions lacked Quentin's visceral effect, so there are other reasons why Quentin is the one most remembered.

[Cody]

Rifneno wrote...
Whatever replaces the templars as a law enforcement against magical abuse must not have religious ties.

Such as Dwarves. Could easily get Dwarves from the surface or make a deal with some from Orzammar and have them watch over mages. They have no religion to use on the Mages, and you won't need to have as many dwarves watching over the mages as you did templars. For Dwarves are naturally resistant to magic. Add in some Templar training and bam. You have an epic "Templar" that isn't a Andrastrian Zealot. And since they do not get Lyrium addictions(they only lose a bit of their mind when they are constantly mining extreamely potent Lyrium mines, which won't be a problem for these Dwarves)they won't be easily bribed by either the Chantry or Mages. 

Side note: What does it mean to call someone a "bleeding heart"? That they are cynical? Lack emotion? Losing emotions? Or?

Modifié par CodyMelch, 22 février 2012 - 12:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

You know, I think this is one huge difference of opinion from which much else follows.  If you really believe that mages don't have it so bad, then sure, why bother to overthrow the system.

As long as you acknowledge that there are different opinions on the matter, and therefore no simple solutions, then it is all okay, because that means that there is also the possibility of compromise. Extremists on either side will always ruin it for everyone else, and they never speak the voice of reason.

[CrimsonZephyr]

CodyMelch wrote...

Side note: What does it mean to call someone a "bleeding heart"? That they are cynical? Lack emotion? Losing emotions? Or?

Quite the opposite, actually. A bleeding heart is someone who affects an excessively altruistic or sympathetic stance towards the underprivileged. As it's a perjorative term, it's applied widely towards anyone with such inclinations by those who find such a worldview to be naive.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 22 février 2012 - 12:41 .

[Lazy Jer]

CodyMelch wrote...

Such as Dwarves. Could easily get Dwarves from the surface or make a deal with some from Orzammar and have them watch over mages. They have no religion to use on the Mages, and you won't need to have as many dwarves watching over the mages as you did templars. For Dwarves are naturally resistant to magic. Add in some Templar training and bam. You have an epic "Templar" that isn't a Andrastrian Zealot. And since they do not get Lyrium addictions(they only lose a bit of their mind when they are constantly mining extreamely potent Lyrium mines, which won't be a problem for these Dwarves)they won't be easily bribed by either the Chantry or Mages. 

Side note: What does it mean to call someone a "bleeding heart"? That they are cynical? Lack emotion? Losing emotions? Or?

Nice idea on paper, maybe, but truth be told I wouldn't count too much on Orzzammar for help.  Firstly because it's not in their best interests.  Given how restricted access to Orzammar is to surfacers and the dwarven inability to use magic, they're mage problem is already solved by virtue of their not having any mages down there.  Secondly finding Orzammarian dwarves willing to dedicate the required amount of time on the surface (and thus loose their "Stone sense") would be difficult to say the least. 

The way I see it there are two options for the so-called "mage cops".  One is mages, the other is...well templars again.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's a remarkably easy one to fall into. Though Quentin was actually the only insane blood mage who really succeeded in killing multiple people onscreen; Tahrone's forced possession of templar apprentices probably counts, and Huon killed his wife, but Huon only killed one (previously unknown) person and Tarohne's actions lacked Quentin's visceral effect, so there are other reasons why Quentin is the one most remembered.

Actually I meant the one about how we get the evils of magic forcibly rammed down our throats on a personal (for Hawke) level while evils of fascist zealots are shown through dialogue with minor characters and innuendo.

CodyMelch wrote...

Such as Dwarves. Could easily get Dwarves from the surface or make a deal with some from Orzammar and have them watch over mages. They have no religion to use on the Mages, and you won't need to have as many dwarves watching over the mages as you did templars. For Dwarves are naturally resistant to magic. Add in some Templar training and bam. You have an epic "Templar" that isn't a Andrastrian Zealot. And since they do not get Lyrium addictions(they only lose a bit of their mind when they are constantly mining extreamely potent Lyrium mines, which won't be a problem for these Dwarves)they won't be easily bribed by either the Chantry or Mages.

Side note: What does it mean to call someone a "bleeding heart"? That they are cynical? Lack emotion? Losing emotions? Or?

Sadly, I believe the lore says that dwarves lose their resistance after too much time on the surface. This is why they told us Varric doesn't get an MR bonus.
Bleeding heart is a lackluster insult implying the person has too much empathy. That their metaphorical heart is crying in sorrow for things that didn't even happen to them. It's generally reserved for knucklebleeders and political pundits (redundant, I know) who think it's justice to hand out heavy sentences for crimes with mitigating circumstances. Or just plain overly severe sentences.