2008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Another apples and oranges comparison. But what laws about magic use would you want nonmages to make anyway?

Laws like: "It is not okay to turn people into sheep." "It is not okay to mind control people." "It is not okay to conjure up fake gold and use that as payment."

All sorts of reasons for non-mages to be interrested in the laws regarding magic. Same reason why medicine laws are NOT made solely by doctors and medicine producers. Since if you leave all the eggs in one basket, it is bound to have an unhappy ending.

[Rifneno]

I love that people still go on about the horrors of blood control. Between both games and all add-ons, we have seen blood control used one time. And even though that one time was a gorgeous woman using it to say "shut up and have sex with me" IT STILL DIDN'T WORK! OMFG! Yes, blood control is such a massive danger omgz!

And nobody give me the "we just haven't seen its power" bit. They went out of their way to show us the dangers of magic in DA2, again and again. Yet the best showing blood control makes is failing to get a beautiful woman laid in a world where everyone's bisexual and there's little to no STD danger. Gee, maybe, juuuuuust maybe, the Chantry is overhyping the danger of that spell?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Did you just try and use the MC of DA2 as an example of how weak mind control is? I mean, seriously? Do you even know what kind of gaming generation you are in? If BioWare had actually made it so that Hawke, would have died no matter what in that situation, unless he had another mage in his party, there would have been an uproar and public executions...

Perhaps you should set your eyes on Avernus, who sparked a rebellion in a nation with the use of blood magic.

[TEWR]

Perhaps you should set your eyes on Avernus, who sparked a rebellion in a nation with the use of blood magic.

Wait.... WHAT?!

Avernus' blood magic didn't cause the rebellion. It certainly was used to exacerbate the rebellion, but it wasn't the root cause of it.

That honor belongs to both Arland and Sophia. Arland was a power-hungry son of a **** intent on ruling Ferelden his way and his way only. Anyone that dared to utter even one word he didn't like was put to death.

Sophia managed to avoid the death penalty and join the Wardens, to which she vowed to use them for her own ends. She then eventually received missives from various banns that pleaded for help. Bann Mathuin Wulff's missive is one such example.

Avernus' blood magic was used to intensify a rebellion that was already happening, and even then he admits that he only nudged Teyrn Cousland. Maybe back in those days he wasn't one to full out mind control someone -- maybe he didn't like full mind control, but over the years when he was trapped he realized that any spell, no matter how "evil" it's deemed, may be necessary -- so he wanted Teyrn Cousland to come to the decision on his own as much as possible.

It seems he just planted the thoughts and subtly influenced Teyrn Cousland into leaning towards it. I

At any rate, to blame Avernus for the rebellion is just wrong.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2012 - 05:47 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

He still used blood magic as a form of mind control, and the severity of the situation aside, it could easily be used subtly behind the scenes to influence leaders and people in positions of power, for whatever reason. Precedent, more so than context, is more important here.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Would it have happened without him? No. Can I therefore hold him responsible? Yes. At least that is the kind of logic you people use against Elthina and Meredith.

But to be fair we know little if anything from the time of Arland's rule. What little we got, comes from his sworn enemy's journal. And forgive me, but I am NOT going to take that as an unbiased objective source of information.

What we know is that not every noble wanted to help Sophia and her little coup, but Avernus, with his blood magic, forced them. However subtle he may have been in its use, blood magic, was the sole reason those nobles ever joined.

[Rifneno]

He said he used blood magic, he didn't say he used mind control. "To nudge people, to keep our secret safe." That could as easily mean he tortured some people with blood magic and threatened their families with it or something. Blood magic makes people soil themselves in terror because of the Chantry's hype in cases where normal magic wouldn't.

Ever notice they always say "imagine if that were used on an <insert authority position here>!" in those speeches. They never cite an actual case. Gee, I wonder why...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

He said he used blood magic, he didn't say he used mind control. "To nudge people, to keep our secret safe." That could as easily mean he tortured some people with blood magic and threatened their families with it or something. Blood magic makes people soil themselves in terror because of the Chantry's hype in cases where normal magic wouldn't.

 
There are simpler way to say "I intimidated them", especially in fiction. So I'm gonna go with the mind control, since that is what is heavily implied.

Rifneno wrote... 
Ever notice they always say "imagine if that were used on an <insert authority position here>!" in those speeches. They never cite an actual case. Gee, I wonder why...

That may just be because blood magic has been suppressed for the past 900 years, and any major incidence with mind control has been prevented.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That may just be because blood magic has been suppressed for the past 900 years, and any major incidence with mind control has been prevented.

Hahahahahahahahaha oh my GOD, that is the funniest thing I've heard in months!  Aww, now I have to go find something to clean the diet coke off my monitor.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Would it have happened without him? No.

Actually, it would've. Since some of the nobility were flocking to Sophia for assistance, that shows that Avernus' nudging of Teyrn Cousland was only used to improve their chances.

The rebellion would've still happened. Considering the Couslands didn't help Sophia -- as evidenced by Arland's butchering of the majority of the family to "keep them in line" -- then the rebellion would've still happened without Avernus. 

Can I therefore hold him responsible? Yes. At least that is the kind of logic you people use against Elthina and Meredith.

Hup! What do you mean "you people"?

At any rate, I'm not sure I understand your logic here.

But to be fair we know little if anything from the time of Arland's rule. What little we got, comes from his sworn enemy's journal. And forgive me, but I am NOT going to take that as an unbiased objective source of information.

We also have Bann Mathuin Wulff's note to Sophia saying an entire family -- down to the last child -- was killed for uttering an idle word out of turn.

We have Avernus corroborating that Arland was a tyrant.

We have that "biased" journal.

If we have 3 sources that point to Arland being a tyrannical ruler, then I think it's safe to say he was in fact a tyrannical ruler. And that "biased" journal becomes truth.

What we know is that not every noble wanted to help Sophia and her little coup, but Avernus, with his blood magic, forced them. However subtle he may have been in its use, blood magic, was the sole reason those nobles ever joined.

Considering Teyrn Cousland's forces didn't join the rebellion because Arland butchered the family and put an apple in the Teyrn's head, no not every noble joined because of blood magic.

You want to paint Avernus as the reason every noble joined the rebellion when that's obviously not the case. Before Sophia joined the Wardens and even met Avernus, several nobles opted for her to be spared from the hangman's noose.

Which means that some nobles freely joined the rebellion. Know why? Because it was Sophia Dryden that riled the Wardens into assisting. Which means that prior to that, Avernus had nothing to do with the rebellion.

[Xilizhra]

So the only possible example of blood magic being used successfully for mind control was used by someone trying to overthrow an evil tyrant? Intriguing.

Honestly, this whole thing makes me wonder if mage rule would be so bad. I mean, it's not like rule by nobles is any less arbitrary or biological, and mages are more resistant to mind control.

[EmperorSahlertz]

At least when it is just the noble who rule, the peasants have a theoretical chance of chaning it. Either by joinning said nobility, or by overthrowing it. We've seen it happen in our world, so we know it can happen in Thedas aswell. Theoretically at least.
Against a mage overlords, a peasant have little chances of overthrowing them, and no chance at all to join them.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

So the only possible example of blood magic being used successfully for mind control was used by someone trying to overthrow an evil tyrant? Intriguing.

Honestly, this whole thing makes me wonder if mage rule would be so bad. I mean, it's not like rule by nobles is any less arbitrary or biological, and mages are more resistant to mind control.

I'm not saying I disagree, but you do realize you just opened Pandora's Box right?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

So the only possible example of blood magic being used successfully for mind control was used by someone trying to overthrow an evil tyrant? Intriguing.

Honestly, this whole thing makes me wonder if mage rule would be so bad. I mean, it's not like rule by nobles is any less arbitrary or biological, and mages are more resistant to mind control.

We've already been over this. It's been tried and it failed miserably as a just form of government. "Mage rule" would simply create a cadre of magically-inclined noblemen, with no recourse for the non-magical, and none of the problems associated with Tevinter would be addressed.

[Xilizhra]

At least when it is just the noble who rule, the peasants have a theoretical chance of chaning it. Either by joinning said nobility, or by overthrowing it. We've seen it happen in our world, so we know it can happen in Thedas aswell. Theoretically at least.
Against a mage overlords, a peasant have little chances of overthrowing them, and no chance at all to join them.

Ah, so elves?

We've already been over this. It's been tried and it failed miserably as a just form of government. "Mage rule" would simply create a cadre of magically-inclined noblemen, with no recourse for the non-magical, and none of the problems associated with Tevinter would be addressed.

So your point is that the governments and societies of Thedas are so awful already that they'd become exactly like Tevinter were mages to become in charge?

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

So the only possible example of blood magic being used successfully for mind control was used by someone trying to overthrow an evil tyrant? Intriguing.

Honestly, this whole thing makes me wonder if mage rule would be so bad. I mean, it's not like rule by nobles is any less arbitrary or biological, and mages are more resistant to mind control.

Indeed, it's amusing to see the extents some people will go to in order to paint mages as the villains. Even if a mage uses blood magic for the greater good, he's apparently still at fault for everything by virtue of using blood magic. 

I think some people are forgetting that the Wardens allow blood magic to be used, so the illegality of it doesn't apply to them. Granted, it's to be used against the Darkspawn, but citing the fact that blood magic is illegal in Chantry controlled lands is a pointless argument since the Wardens allow it.

Frankly, this is why I'm going to write my DAII fanfic with Tobias Hawke the Mage becoming Viscount, after siding with the mages come the endgame.

[Rifneno]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

We've already been over this. It's been tried and it failed miserably as a just form of government. "Mage rule" would simply create a cadre of magically-inclined noblemen, with no recourse for the non-magical, and none of the problems associated with Tevinter would be addressed.

And we've already been over this.  Bigotry isn't exactly a good enough reason for most of us to believe all mages want to go the way of Tevinter.  Kind of like how all Germans don't want to restart the **** party.  Turns out, people are more complex than just a few parts of their DNA.  I know, it's a crazy world, right?

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

And we've already been over this. Bigotry isn't exactly a good enough reason for most of us to believe all mages want to go the way of Tevinter. Kind of like how all Germans don't want to restart the **** party. Turns out, people are more complex than just a few parts of their DNA. I know, it's a crazy world, right?

But... but... magic! Mages! Monkeys riding unicycles and wielding chainsaws!

Actually, that last one would be awesome to see.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But... but... magic! Mages! Monkeys riding unicycles and wielding chainsaws!

Actually, that last one would be awesome to see.

I see your monkeys on unicycles wielding chainsaws and raise you honey badgers on motorcycles wielding... actually, wielding nothing, they don't need weapons.

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

And we've already been over this.  Bigotry isn't exactly a good enough reason for most of us to believe all mages want to go the way of Tevinter.  Kind of like how all Germans don't want to restart the **** party.  Turns out, people are more complex than just a few parts of their DNA.  I know, it's a crazy world, right?

All mages aren't evil.  But all Tevinters are.

At least, that's my conclusion from what we've seen so far.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

We've already been over this. It's been tried and it failed miserably as a just form of government. "Mage rule" would simply create a cadre of magically-inclined noblemen, with no recourse for the non-magical, and none of the problems associated with Tevinter would be addressed.

And we've already been over this.  Bigotry isn't exactly a good enough reason for most of us to believe all mages want to go the way of Tevinter.  Kind of like how all Germans don't want to restart the **** party.  Turns out, people are more complex than just a few parts of their DNA.  I know, it's a crazy world, right?

Not so much bigotry as caution. Letting a group of people have free access to a power that let's them control minds, simply because you can count on statistics to produce a fair number of principled individuals is foolish. The ones that end up being scum would ruin it for the rest of them.

And, let's be honest, why wouldn't the mages want to have absolute power? They, like all living creatures are self-interested, after all (and not of the "enlightened" kind; more like the rapaciously greedy kind), and it would be against their immediate self-interest to relinquish power. The Templars are no different, of course. People are only honest so long as they fear the punishment that awaits them for not being so, or they receive more benefits from behaving justly.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 23 février 2012 - 07:05 .

[TEWR]

All mages aren't evil. But all Tevinters are.

At least, that's my conclusion from what we've seen so far.

Eh, that depends on if you want to view Fenris and Varania as evil. And arguably, Adralla herself.

Both have mage blood coursing through their veins, and imo it's that same blood that helped Fenris survive the ritual he had to endure. The one he fought for.

For all of his claims of how he "didn't want it", he actually sacrificed his life for his family's and knew full well what that ritual would entail.

I'd say that majority of Tevinter Magisters are evil, based purely on what we've seen. But even then, Fenris admits that there are good men among the Imperial Senate.

They're just the ones with the least amount of power.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2012 - 07:09 .

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

All mages aren't evil.  But all Tevinters are.

At least, that's my conclusion from what we've seen so far.

That's possible.  I wouldn't say "all" but I think the great majority are corrupt there.  However, I do hold some hope that it's not as bad as we've been lead to believe.  All we've heard of its evils were from extremely biased sources such as Fenris and the Chantry.  So I've some hope that it has some redeeming qualities... not much hope, but some.  Slavery is horrific but it's not far from how many "civilized' nations treat their lower class (elves mostly).  Dwarves aren't considered evil, and the way they treat the casteless is stomach-churning.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But... but... magic! Mages! Monkeys riding unicycles and wielding chainsaws!

Actually, that last one would be awesome to see.

I see your monkeys on unicycles wielding chainsaws and raise you honey badgers on motorcycles wielding... actually, wielding nothing, they don't need weapons.

you may have won the battle honey badgers, but you won't win the...

no wait, you will. Because you're friggin' honey badgers.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

All mages aren't evil.  But all Tevinters are.

At least, that's my conclusion from what we've seen so far.

That's possible.  I wouldn't say "all" but I think the great majority are corrupt there.  However, I do hold some hope that it's not as bad as we've been lead to believe.  All we've heard of its evils were from extremely biased sources such as Fenris and the Chantry.  So I've some hope that it has some redeeming qualities... not much hope, but some.  Slavery is horrific but it's not far from how many "civilized' nations treat their lower class (elves mostly).  Dwarves aren't considered evil, and the way they treat the casteless is stomach-churning.

We meet, in total, maybe six or seven Tevinters over the course of the series:

Caladrius: blood mage and elf slave trader
Devera: slave trader and a Quisling to her kind
Fenris: bitter and scarred ex-slave who has nothing good to say about his homeland
Danarius: blood mage, magister, demon summoner, child-killer, slaver, and according to Gaider, sexual abuser
Hadriana: blood mage, magister, slaver (she does hang out in a slave den), all around ****.
Varania: another Quisling to her kind, accepted the offer of magistership purely out of self-interest
Senestra: vicious moneylender on the streets of Kirkwall.

Such nice people. Yeah, these guys are always chaotic evil.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 23 février 2012 - 07:13 .